Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I start this thread with a little hesitance simply because I am aware of the ire I will likely provoke with this topic, but I believe it must be discussed. This conversation deals with the topic of piracy and DRM for Project: Eternity (hereafter, P:E). Before I get started, I wanted to point to the two sources for my inspiration for this topic. The first is a well-researched (and very long) article on PC gaming piracy and a

from the guys at Extra Credit. Much of the arguments heard from both sides of this issue have been discussed in these two locations. I recommend reading and watching those before continuing. With that out of the way, here goes.

 

I am a backer of P:E as are many of you on the forums. We have all given a portion of our own hard-earned money as an initial investment to Obsidian towards the production of this game and IP. We have been promised DRM-free copies of the game and Steam direct downloads. The backers of this Kickstarter are obviously not pirating this game. They have already invested in it. Yet, this conversation affects us and the developers the most and it is these two groups along with future P:E buyers whose attention I want.

 

Simply put: At least in this game, there should be a zero tolerance by all parties for piracy (or copyright violation).

 

Now, I’m not here to argue numbers, lost sales, used game sales, piracy in non-targeted markets. I’m not going to call pirates “thieves” because they aren’t stealing tangible property. But, let’s not kid ourselves either. In this particular instance of P:E, they aren’t "valiant defenders of freedom” either. I’m here to say that even a single pirated copy takes away from what all of us the backers have invested in and what all future buyers of the game are investing in: the creation of a new intellectual property and RPGs in which the profits from the game go towards continuing the trend of getting PC-only for-gamers, by-gamers RPG games.

 

Remember when we were counting down the minutes before the kickstarter ended? How we would hope just one more backer would join us? How "every backer counts!" was the rallying cry for many of us? Well, the pirates are the ones who didn’t back this game, are waiting for the game to come out, and then demand to get a free copy “to try.” They didn’t take the risk of paying money in investing and now want to reap all the rewards of our risk. They are the true free-riders and this time, they are riding on the backs of us, the gamers. Not the corporations. Us. The Gamers.

 

Pirates often state that “the games are too expensive, so I’m going to pirate it because it’s a rip-off” or that “publishers are rich, so it’s ok to not pay them for this game.” If $50 is too much for a pirate to spend on the game later, how about $20? That’s how much P:E is right now (until December 3rd). Yes, they run the risk (however low) that the game doesn’t come out, but then they could put that $20 aside right now, and continue to add to it until the game comes out. At that point they’d likely have enough money to buy the game. Pricing isn’t an issue right now, so why aren’t pirates backing the game now and taking that risk? Why not pay that extra money that the rest of us don’t have to because we took that initial risk? We took that risk and it cost us, why shouldn't it cost pirates? And Obsidian isn't the bad guy here either. They are the actual developers of the game, a mid-tier software development company that feeds its employees by making games that we love. These are not guys in suits. They are normal people like you and me trying to make a living making games we love. As the video from Extra Credit says:

 

 

Honestly every developer takes a way lower salary that they could anywhere outside the field…

 

If you can afford a decent PC … you can probably afford a game on it… Just to be sure we weren’t being horrible jerks by saying that … [if you can] own a decent gaming machine, but somehow can’t afford games for it… there are plenty of legit free gaming experiences out there.

 

 

Feargus, the CEO of Obsidian himself said,

][/b]

Question: Just FYI Obsidian have already comment on the update comments as follows:

"All the funding that we receive from Kickstarter and PayPal will be used to make the base game - No money raised will be used for funding the expansion in any way."

 

Feargus: Yes, we are going to fund it ourselves and from the sales we get from Project Eternity when it comes available - not from Kickstarter funds. I don't think we will do a Kickstarter just for it, I'd rather see about funding the sequel that way - if you guys will still have us. :)

 

Now whether it’s 1-5% or 91-95% of the copies pirated, that’s taking away 1-5% or 91-95% of the profits that can be used both for the P:E expansion and for a more important reason. By reducing the sales numbers of games for the PC, we are effectively showing publishers that the PC market is “dead” or not profitable (both of which aren’t true, simply based on the kickstarter numbers). Now, some argue PC exclusive titles were killed because of piracy. I don’t believe in hyperbole, but I do believe that piracy is one of many factors for why we have less PC-only games. From the article, I quote:

 

 

This means that PC gamers often have to wait long periods to play the same game their console counterparts have been enjoying for many months, during which time the game becomes even more dated in its visuals. Of greater concern is the fact that some games are now being deliberately delayed for the PC, due to explicit concerns that piracy of the PC version will undermine potential sales of the console version. As an example, Tom Clancy's EndWar was deliberately delayed for PC, the creative director Michael Plater saying quite simply that:

 

To be honest, if PC wasn't pirated to hell and back, there'd probably be a PC version coming out the same day as the other two. The level of piracy that you get with the PC just cannibalizes the others, because people just steal that version, piracy's basically killing PC.

 

Some major games aren't even slated for a PC release at any point, the developers stating categorically that there won't be a PC version. Star Wars: Force Unleashed and Gears of War 2 are two prominent examples. In other words the situation has become so bad that in some cases developers and publishers simply conclude that releasing a PC version isn't viable. Epic explicitly attribute piracy as the reason for deciding not to release Gears of Wars 2 on PC; LucasArts is less clear, deliberately skirting the issue of piracy and instead giving a somewhat flimsy reason regarding insufficient PC specs, despite Force Unleashed being released even for the 2000-era PS2.

 

 

Now like I said, I’m not here to talk about numbers, lost sales, used game sales, piracy in non-targeted markets or anything else like that because those arguments have many pitfalls. Whatever excuses prior publisher-invested games bring to the piracy debate, kickstarting a game invested by the players, has demolished. This is a new paradigm and the rules are not the same. What I want to tackle is what is called “day-zero” or “day-one piracy” in markets which are targeted. If the game is localized to your language, it’s targeted to your market. Localization costs money that the developers could have used on another aspect of the game. I want Obsidian’s sales numbers of the game be truly indicative of how well-liked the game actually is. If a game has 2 million people who actually love the game and play it, but only 50,000 sales, developers can’t prove that games like this are still worth making to publishers in the future. Obviously, if P:E fails as a good IP or game, then we would not need to continue to support it in the future. But if it is good, and people like the lore, story, mechanics, etc then we must do whatever we can to support it to show that games like this are what gamers want.

 

Here is where my proposal lies. I believe that piracy for Project: Eternity can be deterred most effectively through several avenues:

  • Backers: Do not enable pirates or allow friends to pirate this specific game. What you do with other games I don’t care. As I said, whatever excuses prior publisher-invested games bring to the piracy debate, kickstarting a game invested by the players, has demolished. This is a new paradigm and the rules are not the same. If they want to share a copy to see how the game plays, they should check out the forums and the updates or write to the developer asking for a demo. The less money Obsidian makes on this game, the less money there is to make a better expansion (or to make a case in the future to publishers from other developers that PC-only games do have a market). Enabling pirates either in forums or actively giving them a copy of the game takes away from both you and the developer.
  • Developers: For those of us who have backed the game, as previously stated, DRM-free copies should exist. We have taken a risk in backing the game, and thus are both investors and legitimate purchasers of the game. The DRM clearly does not apply to us. You have listened to us and we thank you for it.
  • This is where I'll lose some of you, I'm sure, but the developers should find ways to discourage piracy from the general public by giving DRM-enabled or some other copyright-protected copy - with caveats.

  1. Developers: Determine if DRMs are neccesary or if other methods of copy protection would be suitable. A one-time online activation check or phone activation would be fine, but there might be more effective methods. If you do use DRMs, use the most cost-conscious and effective DRM protection you can without being “intrusive.” Do not use always-on DRMs. Honestly, developers come and go these days. While I would hate it if Obsidian closes its doors, it happens. Don’t let players fear the day that their “good old game” would no longer be playable because the company servers no longer work.
     
  2. Developers: Give a toll-free, easy to reach tech support line for DRM-related issues to legitimate buyers while the DRM is in effect. They should not have to pay “several dollars a minute to call tech support regarding issues that are no fault of their own,” nor be held behind computerized answering machines. I also agree with the article when it states “Emailing tech support on these issues is also a complete waste of time due to vague stock answers, so email support also needs to be shored up.”
     
  3. Developers: The DRM should be disabled after a year with a patch. As time passes, a DRM-free copy makes sense. At that point the game will have likely been cracked anyway, and DRM only affects those who have purchased the game. But this early DRM will stop some from stealing the game and purchasing a copy. From the article:
    What most users don't consider is that 'day-one' or 'day-zero' piracy as it's called is disproportionately more damaging to a game's sales than at any other time, as this article explains:
    Day zero piracy is where a game is released for free by pirates before the official release. It's disastrous for the developer and publisher because whatever route gets the game out to the gamer first will be the favoured choice, so a game uploaded to the internet before the release date will have a huge impact on sales.
    It's around the release period when marketing hype has reached fever pitch, and gamers are most excited about getting a game. If a working pirated version is available at the same time, the potential for lost sales is enormous.…So to protect games, copy protection or DRM doesn't need to be impervious to piracy, it simply needs to hinder casual piracy and day-zero piracy, and also not only make the process more of a hassle for would-be pirates, but place uncertainty in their minds as to how long it will actually take to get their hands on a working bug-free crack for the game. While 'hardcore' pirates will always wait for a crack, even a few days' delay can affect a person who may have been sitting on the fence between pirating a game or purchasing it, especially if a legitimate digital copy is only a download away from somewhere like Steam. Even the makers of StarForce DRM have said exactly the same thing regarding the use of their protection technology. On the StarForce forums they said this:
    The purpose of copy protection is not making the game uncrackable - it is impossible. The main purpose is to delay the release of the cracked version. Maximum sales rate usually takes place in the first month(s) after the game release. If the game is not cracked in that period of time, then the copy protection works well.
     
  4. Players and backers: Support Obsidian in its choice. We are the players, the buyers, and the backers. If Obsidian has shown us respect, we should support them in their decision and fight against illogical public outcries and mass hysteria when it comes to DRM. Educate yourselves first about the DRM and support them. Developers shouldn't have to deal with hysterical and misinformed customers (sometimes egged on by pirates themselves) alone. Now, I don't mean that everyone who has concerns abaout DRM is illogical, uneducated, or hysterical, but it is possible that they are misinformed. It would be truly abhorrent to first support these folks by investing in them, but then to turn around and allow others to take away from what ALL of us, supporters, buyers and developers, have helped to create. If we show that we are there beside them, Obsidian is less likely to back down.
     
  5. Developers: Be upfront with your fans and customers. Employing DRM itself has a cost, both financially and with goodwill. When you have made your considerations, tell us why or why not you don’t want to employ DRM. Be honest about different pricing for games in different markets where the salaries of the population does not allow for a lot of disposable income. Whatever you decide on your prices make sure that it is fair.
     
  6. Finally, developers: And this doesn't necessarily go to you OEI, but to other developers possibly reading this. Do not ever take advantage of the social contract that we the gamers have made with you. DRM is a hot topic for us. If you make a promise, stick with it. You aren't seen as the "evil, money-grubbing publishers." Don't lose that goodwill now by getting greedy. Some developers have gone this route before and have - to this day - lost support by gamers like me. Do this and gamers will pirate your games. You have been warned.

Whatever excuses prior publisher-invested games bring to the piracy debate, kickstarting a game invested by the players, has demolished. This is a new paradigm and the rules are not the same. I am a gamer first and foremost and I want good games to continue to be made. If I have to take a little bit of heat for it, then so be it. As long as those games keep being made for me and people like me.

 

Respectfully,

 

Hormalakh

 

 

Special thanks to Inkblot for the list of quotes from Feargus in this thread.

 

Edit: There have been other copyright protections suggested by members, these might be worth looking into instead of utilizing other DRM-software.

Edited by LadyCrimson
  • Like 8

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't like DRM, don't believe it helps anyone and I don't support games that use DRM. If someone feels that they need to play the game before deciding to put money down for it, thats ok by me as a backer. One of the great things about these kickstarter projects for me is the fact that there is no DRM. It was one of the main reasons I backed the projects. Adding DRM of any kind for anyone would ruin that for me. Please, please, please no DRM.

 

Edit - and I'm not sure I like being labelled 'illogical, uneducated, hysterical and misinformed' just because I disagree with you.

Edited by maggotheart
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't like DRM, don't believe it helps anyone and I don't support games that use DRM. If someone feels that they need to play the game before deciding to put money down for it, thats ok by me as a backer. One of the great things about these kickstarter projects for me is the fact that there is no DRM. It was one of the main reasons I backed the projects. Adding DRM of any kind for anyone would ruin that for me. Please, please, please no DRM.

 

What do you do the next time a game like this wants to be kickstarted and nobody is willing to back it because they'll "just pirate it when it comes out"? As for whether DRM helps or doesn't, the evidence thus far is against you.

 

Edit - and I'm not sure I like being labelled 'illogical, uneducated, hysterical and misinformed' just because I disagree with you.

 

Not everyone who has concerns is illogical, uneducated, or hysterical. But they might be misinformed. I have fixed the relevant part, nonetheless. Thank you for that - I do not mean to inflame.

Edited by Hormalakh

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't like DRM, don't believe it helps anyone and I don't support games that use DRM. If someone feels that they need to play the game before deciding to put money down for it, thats ok by me as a backer. One of the great things about these kickstarter projects for me is the fact that there is no DRM. It was one of the main reasons I backed the projects. Adding DRM of any kind for anyone would ruin that for me. Please, please, please no DRM.

 

Edit - and I'm not sure I like being labelled 'illogical, uneducated, hysterical and misinformed' just because I disagree with you.

 

What do you do the next time a game like this wants to be kickstarted and nobody is willing to back it because they'll "just pirate it when it comes out"?

 

I don't think that will happen. The same people who backed this project will still be there, plus maybe some new fans who played the game and liked it. I'm not worried about pirates and besides there's nothing you can do to stop them.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Great post Hormalakh. Sadly complacency against piracy and even used game sales will only hurt the game industry in the long run. I've see the arguments on both sides but really all it ever has come down to for me is that if you're going to pirate games nobody will convince you to stop. I'd just ask that pirates stop hiding behind the scapegoats of DRM or games being overpriced to justify the games they steal. It's not justified so just go ahead and say, 'I steal games for reason X, it's not right but I do it anyway' and I'll have no beef with you. So if you're a pirate please stop acting like it's ok or even a good thing to steal because you're unhappy with some aspect of the game.

 

I know DRM is a tricky topic and some people have (perhaps disproportionately) strong opinions about it but in the end I can count on 1 hand the number of times DRM has ever given me any trouble while playing a game. Maybe I'm just lucky, I don't know, but I sadly see it as the lesser of 2 evils in this case. If you're somebody against DRM I'm fully in support of you not buying a game with overly restrictive DRM. I do not support people pirating it and saying that it's ok because you're anti DRM.

 

PS: Also I hope we don't get into the semantic argument that digital piracy isn't theft because you're not taking anything from anybody. You are, you're taking a sale away from the developer/publisher/retailer.

  • Like 3

K is for Kid, a guy or gal just like you. Don't be in such a hurry to grow up, since there's nothin' a kid can't do.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Different point of view when you have skin in the game eh?

 

I've backed PE. I want very much for it to suceed.

 

Pirates will be pirates. It will happen. DRM won't stop them, Steam DRM least of all. The only type of DRM I'm aware of that has not been cracked and quick at that is the type Diablo 3 or an MMO has. I'm ok with always connected for MMOs (it's the nature of the beast), but I couldn't possibly be more against always connected for anything else, or even sometimes connected for a game I'm always going to play offline. That said, I am aware that there are pirate servers for many MMOs and there's probably one for Diablo 3 as well. To be frank, the type of DRM that Diablo 3 had had me looking for a pirated copy so I didn't have to be connected when playing, and I owned the game (came with my year sub to WoW). I stopped looking after I played it a little bit.... it wasn't a game I wanted to continue playing.

 

The general public shouldn't be treated as second class citizens when it comes time for them to buy the game. While they may have missed out on some of the goodies being a part of the kickstarter provided they certainly shouldn't suffer DRM.

 

I'm all for developers making money, I'd love them to get rich on their game, and I want very much for PE to be a great game and succeed financially just as I'm sure just about everyone else here does. DRM won't stop pirates though, and is little more than a pain the ass (even so big in some cases that I'd prefer a pirated copy to one I own to not have to deal with it). I'd argue as others have that DRM actually encourages piracy more than it discourages it.

 

If Obsidion makes a great game, it will sell. Don't fret pirates.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

Great post Hormalakh. Sadly complacency against piracy and even used game sales will only hurt the game industry in the long run. I've see the arguments on both sides but really all it ever has come down to for me is that if you're going to pirate games nobody will convince you to stop. I'd just ask that pirates stop hiding behind the scapegoats of DRM or games being overpriced to justify the games they steal. It's not justified so just go ahead and say, 'I steal games for reason X, it's not right but I do it anyway' and I'll have no beef with you. So if you're a pirate please stop acting like it's ok or even a good thing to steal because you're unhappy with some aspect of the game.

 

I know DRM is a tricky topic and some people have (perhaps disproportionately) strong opinions about it but in the end I can count on 1 hand the number of times DRM has ever given me any trouble while playing a game. Maybe I'm just lucky, I don't know, but I sadly see it as the lesser of 2 evils in this case. If you're somebody against DRM I'm fully in support of you not buying a game with overly restrictive DRM. I do not support people pirating it and saying that it's ok because you're anti DRM.

 

PS: Also I hope we don't get into the semantic argument that digital piracy isn't theft because you're not taking anything from anybody. You are, you're taking a sale away from the developer/publisher/retailer.

 

Unfortunately, I believe that as gamers we allow piracy to continue because we do not speak out against it. We are part of the problem. Those of us who do are quickly shouted down and any semblance of reasoned discussion goes out the window. When society sees something as an evil, then that in itself can play a very important and effective deterrent to piracy.

 

As for your other points, I have either discussed them in the post or have chosen not to make those arguments because I believe them to be poor/invalid.

  • Like 1

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

Different point of view when you have skin in the game eh?

Truer words have not been said.

I've backed PE. I want very much for it to suceed.

 

Pirates will be pirates. It will happen. DRM won't stop them, Steam DRM least of all.

But as players we can deter them by speaking out against it. I could quote a rather famous saying here about evil and good men doing nothing, but I'm pretty sure you're a smart enough fellow to have already heard it.

The general public shouldn't be treated as second class citizens when it comes time for them to buy the game. While they may have missed out on some of the goodies being a part of the kickstarter provided they certainly shouldn't suffer DRM.

The only second class citizens we have are the pirates.

 

I have addressed your other points in the OP.

Edited by Hormalakh

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you there as well, I'm against piracy but I'm one of the ones who've been shouted down so to speak and I've tempered my views about it. I wish that it weren't so but to be frank I don't think a block of text on the internet will ever dissuade somebody from doing what they're intending to do. So in the end I've decided to live with pirates pirating games I just don't want to hear them claiming to be Robinhood while they do so.

  • Like 2

K is for Kid, a guy or gal just like you. Don't be in such a hurry to grow up, since there's nothin' a kid can't do.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Uh I don't know that I agree with this post in it's entirety or that having DRM for this game is a good idea..... However I do agree with the general point of the thread. Just remember that a lot of the major sites a pirate might use will also turn around and back you quite well if you show you deserve that financial support and you are about gamers not profits.

 

Good post.

 

PS: Also I hope we don't get into the semantic argument that digital piracy isn't theft because you're not taking anything from anybody. You are, you're taking a sale away from the developer/publisher/retailer.

Well said and absolutely true.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

[...]

  • Backers: Do not enable pirates or allow friends to pirate this specific game. What you do with other games I don’t care. As I said, whatever excuses prior publisher-invested games bring to the piracy debate, kickstarting a game invested by the players, has demolished. This is a new paradigm and the rules are not the same. If they want to share a copy to see how the game plays, they should check out the forums and the updates or write to the developer asking for a demo. The less money Obsidian makes on this game, the less money there is to make a better expansion (or to make a case in the future to publishers from other developers that PC-only games do have a market). Enabling pirates either in forums or actively giving them a copy of the game takes away from both you and the developer.

[...]


  •  

This is the majorly important part. Unless they have an open beta, the only pirates for this game are going to be your fellow Kickstarter backers, and "well I spent money on this, what I do with my copy is none of your business" is an excuse I fully expect to see.

 

As a side thought, having the Kickstarter granted copies also personalized with our names would be nice. :cat:

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm anti-DRM, but I think I'm well enough informed on the topic to justify my stance. I will say I've read the article on Tweakguides before and while I think it makes some good points, there are also some things that are overlooked and/or outright ignored. DRM won't necessarily stop me from buying a game, but it vastly reduces my perceived value of it. As an example of this, I own a bunch of games on Steam, but have never paid more than 7 bucks for any of them (and yes, sorry Obz, but Dungeon Siege 3 is one of them). I'm pretty sure that's not what the game devs/publishers are aiming for when it comes to per-unit revenue. But anything shackled with DRM just does not have any more value in my eyes.

 

Will PE be pirated? Most assuredly. But does anyone really think DRM is going to stop that? I know I don't.

 

And on a side note, I'm somewhat amused at the charge that piracy is killing PC game releases, when you consider games like, oh Halo 4 anyone?

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you there as well, I'm against piracy but I'm one of the ones who've been shouted down so to speak and I've tempered my views about it. I wish that it weren't so but to be frank I don't think a block of text on the internet will ever dissuade somebody from doing what they're intending to do. So in the end I've decided to live with pirates pirating games I just don't want to hear them claiming to be Robinhood while they do so.

United we stand. Divided we fall.

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

Witcher 2 was pirated and up on torrent sites the day it was released (or before?).

The game was distributed in DRM-free version on GOG.com and in DRM versions in Steam and other online and non-online stores.

The version on torrent sites was the DRM-version, with DRM cracked.

 

DRM does NOT stop or hinder piracy at all. Not at all.

DRM can, and has, hurt the sales of used games, but that's all.

 

--

One caveat. The Diablo 3, World of Warcraft kind of DRM where big chunks of the game code

are not given to you but reside on developers server can stop piracy. Meaning always online, limited lifespan for games.

I think that's where the industry will be heading. Which is sad. Understandable but sad.

Edited by Jarmo
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm anti-DRM, but I think I'm well enough informed on the topic to justify my stance. I will say I've read the article on Tweakguides before and while I think it makes some good points, there are also some things that are overlooked and/or outright ignored. DRM won't necessarily stop me from buying a game, but it vastly reduces my perceived value of it. As an example of this, I own a bunch of games on Steam, but have never paid more than 7 bucks for any of them (and yes, sorry Obz, but Dungeon Siege 3 is one of them). I'm pretty sure that's not what the game devs/publishers are aiming for when it comes to per-unit revenue. But anything shackled with DRM just does not have any more value in my eyes.

 

Will PE be pirated? Most assuredly. But does anyone really think DRM is going to stop that? I know I don't.

 

I will say that I was anti-DRM too, but this is a problem that we must face and multiplayer game this is not. Currently, I am skeptical of my initial judgements on DRM. I believe that I have been misinformed and that I need to do more reading about it. The one thing that I am glad though, is that people like you are willing to even sit and discuss the topic.

 

I am interested in know what you think about a time-limited DRM that is patched out after the initial sales date? Like 30 days after initiail launch. It stops the floods at the beginning, but then is gone when useless.

And on a side note, I'm somewhat amused at the charge that piracy is killing PC game releases, when you consider games like, oh Halo 4 anyone?

Yeah. I think that's garbage too as I said in my OP.

Edited by Hormalakh

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

Witcher 2 was pirated and up on torrent sites the day it was released (or before?).

The game was distributed in DRM-free version on GOG.com and in DRM versions in Steam and other online and non-online stores.

The version on torrent sites was the DRM-version, with DRM cracked.

 

DRM does NOT stop or hinder piracy at all. Not at all.

DRM can, and has, hurt the sales of used games, but that's all.

 

From the article mentioned above from tweakguides. Last part of page 9.

Update: CD Projekt, a developer which is also often mistakenly thought of as having a soft-on-piracy stance, has also come out and said that despite their latest game The Witcher 2 not having any DRM, they will vigorously pursue pirates by legal means. CD Projekt says:

Of course we're not happy when people are pirating our games, so we are signing with legal firms and torrent sneaking companies. In quite a few big countries, when people are downloading it illegally they can expect a letter from a legal firm saying, 'Hey, you downloaded it illegally and right now you have to pay a fine.'

A prominent games lawyer believes that CD Projekt's effort with The Witcher 2 marks the beginning of a crackdown that's set to become more intense, saying: "Piracy is a serious legal and financial issue for the games industry, which is responding with a range of measures from DRM to legal action against illegal downloaders."

 

In early 2012 CD Projekt backed down on its threats of directly identifying and prosecuting pirates. However in the face of damning figures showing that their extremely popular PC-exclusive The Witcher 2 game was pirated at least 4.5 million times in comparison to only 1 million legitimate sales, despite having all DRM removed in an early patch and receiving almost universal praise from gamers, they had this to say about piracy:

Let's make this clear: we don't support piracy. It hurts us, the developers. It hurts the industry as a whole. Though we are staunch opponents of DRM because we don't believe it has any effect on reducing piracy, we still do not condone copying games illegally. We're doing our part to keep our relationship with you, our gaming audience, a positive one. We've heard your concerns, listened to your voices, and we're responding to them. But you need to help us and do your part: don't be indifferent to piracy.

Thus in 2012 The Witcher 2 example continues to prove that giving gamers what they ostensibly seem to demand: a well-crafted and highly popular PC exclusive game, lacking intrusive DRM, from a small independent developer, is still not sufficient to prevent an 80%+ piracy rate.

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

When the game is 20 bucks and available on steam any pirates that steal it wouldn't have bought it anyways. In addition to that if they really do like it then there is a more than zero chance that they'd either buy it themselves or, through word of mouth, inspire someone else to.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

When the game is 20 bucks and available on steam any pirates that steal it wouldn't have bought it anyways. In addition to that if they really do like it then there is a more than zero chance that they'd either buy it themselves or, through word of mouth, inspire someone else to.

 

A good game sells regardless of pirates' word of mouth.

  • Like 1

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

Cracking groups look at DRM as a new challenge.

Hell, it took AiR 2 years to crack Cubase 4/5 (5 didn't update protection cuz it wasn't cracked yet) but they did it.

And the reason it took so long is because cubase uses hardware protection in the form of a usb stick.

They reverse engineered it eventually.

Steam's DRM has been cracked for a long time.

 

Single player games....they have no protection from getting cracked.

Multi player games can limit access to their servers with various detection methods.

 

So, PE will be pirated, it's just a fact of the world we live in today.

What the devs shouldn't do is go after them, instead use the force of piracy for their own good.

 

Like this: http://arstechnica.c...y-work-for-him/

 

Intrusive DRM will just piss people off and will be cracked.

 

And every copy pirated is not a lost sale. Some people are called collectors, and just download everything they can.

Other people refuse to spend money on software, and have been that way for years.

 

The only way to stop piracy is by making your game free. Unfortunately F2P models don't exactly fit in old school RPGs like this one. Kind of ruins the immersion when you can't access a quest or item without paying.

 

Piracy definitely hurts PC games the most. It's 100x easier than modding your xbox or ps3...well the ps3 was easy if you found an old enough one. The xbox you have to rip apart to play pirated games.

 

The PC....download torrent, read nfo.

Edited by jivex5k
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

From the article mentioned above from tweakguides. Last part of page 9.

Though we are staunch opponents of DRM because we don't believe it has any effect on reducing piracy, we still do not condone copying games illegally.

 

Shortened that to highlight my point.

I'm all for fighting piracy in all reasonable and effective ways, but not in ineffective or unreasonable ways.

Not DRM and not blackmail letters to suspected pirates. Basically it's a job for authorities, as botched job as they're doing of it, it's still their job.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I am interested in know what you think about a time-limited DRM that is patched out after the initial sales date? Like 30 days after initiail launch. It stops the floods at the beginning, but then is gone when useless.

 

I'm all for it, and have said as much in other DRM discussions. Problem is, I still won't buy the game until I see the DRM is actually patched out, which means I'm likely not going to be paying much for the game (likely by that time the price will be reduced, as it was in the case of Alpha Protocol). As well, I'm sorry to say it, but I don't trust publishers to patch out DRM even if they say they will until I actually see it happen (I'm looking at you Atari).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Cracking groups look at DRM as a new challenge.

Hell, it took AiR 2 years to crack Cubase 4/5 (5 didn't update protection cuz it wasn't cracked yet) but they did it.

And the reason it took so long is because cubase uses hardware protection in the form of a usb stick.

They reverse engineered it eventually.

Steam's DRM has been cracked for a long time.

 

Single player games....they have no protection from getting cracked.

Multi player games can limit access to their servers with various detection methods.

 

So, PE will be pirated, it's just a fact of the world we live in today.

What the devs shouldn't do is go after them, instead use the force of piracy for their own good.

 

Like this: http://arstechnica.c...y-work-for-him/

 

Intrusive DRM will just piss people off and will be cracked.

 

And every copy pirated is not a lost sale. Some people are called collectors, and just download everything they can.

Other people refuse to spend money on software, and have been that way for years.

 

The only way to stop piracy is by making your game free. Unfortunately F2P models don't exactly fit in old school RPGs like this one. Kind of ruins the immersion when you can't access a quest or item without paying.

 

Piracy definitely hurts PC games the most. It's 100x easier than modding your xbox or ps3...well the ps3 was easy if you found an old enough one. The xbox you have to rip apart to play pirated games.

 

The PC....download torrent, read nfo.

 

Very interesting post jive, thanks for the link. Like I said in the OP, the fact that this is a kickstarter really changes the dynamic too. The payment model has changed. DRM might not be the right answer. It is nevertheless a discussion we should have.

Edited by Hormalakh

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a fan of DRM, but I didn't even know what it was until somewhat recently. If the DRM a game has does not hinder my ability to access the game I bought now or in future nor does it block modders, I won't even notice. I only oppose DRM as it harms me, the consumer, or limits game purchasing to buying a license that may run out at some undetermined point in the future. What I believe is that DRM can be, and often is, abusive so it should be avoided.

 

That said, I do wonder what prompted you to post this, Hormalakh. Was there discussion in the forums about people pirating or planning to? I was under the impression that P:E would be relatively pirate free due to the way it was funded. To be honest, I would prefer that P:E was sold only as a token effort and only online. Let the true revenue be produced by people backing the games before any work has been done. That's the only way that piracy can be stopped (rendered moot) completely.

 

Note: Due to the rate this thread is moving, it is possible this post is outdated. If I read every post before I posted, I never would. Here's hoping.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am interested in know what you think about a time-limited DRM that is patched out after the initial sales date? Like 30 days after initiail launch. It stops the floods at the beginning, but then is gone when useless.

 

I'm all for it, and have said as much in other DRM discussions. Problem is, I still won't buy the game until I see the DRM is actually patched out, which means I'm likely not going to be paying much for the game (likely by that time the price will be reduced, as it was in the case of Alpha Protocol). As well, I'm sorry to say it, but I don't trust publishers to patch out DRM even if they say they will until I actually see it happen (I'm looking at you Atari).

LOL. Neither do I. Read my last caveat to devs.

 

Finally, developers: And this doesn't necessarily go to you OEI, but to other developers possibly reading this. Do not ever take advantage of the social contract that we the gamers have made with you. DRM is a hot topic for us. If you make a promise, stick with it. You aren't seen as the "evil, money-grubbing publishers." Don't lose that goodwill now by getting greedy. Some developers have gone this route before and have - to this day - lost support by gamers like me. Do this and gamers will pirate your games. You have been warned.

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...