Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part III).

[SophosTheWise]

Can we extend the plea to spears being useful for once?

 

I'll happily extend this plea towards polearms in general. Fine video, too.

 

Also:

 

Luzerner Hammer

 

 

[Lephys]

Pssh... only a luzer would use such a hammer, u_u

 

[SophosTheWise]

Pssh... only a luzer would use such a hammer, u_u

 

 

[Karranthain]

Agreed, Sophos :

 

[Nonek]

Had my telly box recording a series of programs about the more interesting and bloody battles of history, called "instruments of death." Finally had a chance to sit down and watch it today, it's rather good and though it does not go into as much detail as i'd like i'd still recommend it. Covers such bloody battles as Naseby, Towton, Hastings and Boudicca's last battle against the legions somewhere on Watling street.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDCMhyOLAc

[Diagoras]

Kevin Hicks is the man, and that poleaxe video is awesome. It inspired me to scour YouTube for some videos demonstrating the operation of the three ages of firearms that will have occurred/are occurring during P:E. Unfortunately, I couldn't embed three YouTube videos, so instead they're directly linked below.

 

First, the handgonne! Pretty much the earliest real firearm, used through the 13th and 14th centuries, though exactly when the earliest one was is controversial. A giant metal tube full of gunpowder that was ignited by actually touching a flame manually to the priming pan - no trigger for you! Inaccurate, low rate of fire, high rate of malfunction, etc. However, it's cheap, easy to make, and easy to use (so long as you don't panic, blow yourself up, drop it, etc.) Finally, a use for peasants.

 

The guy below is "speed shooting" his handgonne as fast as he can. As you can see, it really is just a stick with a barrel.

 

https://www.youtube-...bed/FRsNzTH-xHk

 

Here, Kevin Hicks (from the polearm video) shows us what would be involved in firing a matchlock musket. The matchlock was developed in the late 14th century, and was used all the way up until the 18th century due to its incredibly cheap manufacturing cost. Note that this particular weapon is from almost a 100 years after P:E is set, meaning that the weapon is better in terms of handling than it should be. In fact, a musket in the parlance of the 16th century was a heavy weapon that could only be fired from a braced position or from a rest, while by the time Hicks is in they've gotten light enough that they can be shoulder fired like the 16th century arquebus. Note how ridiculously complicated the reloading process is - including having to constantly blow on and keep alight the slow match!

 

https://www.youtube-...bed/VmZt1tjq8f8

 

Finally, the latest technology in the P:E setting (excluding the snaplock, which I'll talk about another time): the wheellock, which was invented in the early 16th century and used up until the 18th or even 19th century. This is the technology that enabled all kinds of crazy designs and weapons systems. The first dedicated cavalry weapons were wheellocks (the petronel) as were the first described sharpshooter's guns. All the rifled weapons I've seen from the era were wheellocks, which makes sense as it's a sharpshooter's modification. Revolving weapons, combi-weapons, etc. No longer needing to constantly mind a slow match allowed you to fire with one hand, and the fact that the firing mechanism was always prepared meant you could walk around with a loaded and ready weapon for the first time - giving the wheellock a reputation as an assassin's weapon. Below is a firing of a wheellock pistol in slow motion. It's interesting to note just how much smoke a single firing would make.

 

https://www.youtube-...bed/jFBxWJif8wI

 

And your kicker for this episode: a knight on horseback firing a handgonne. Yeah, that's right.

 

[Jarmo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDCMhyOLAc

 

Hey that was neat. An this as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv7Zz-WdXUc

Says something for leather/hide armor actually, sort of.

[Karranthain]

Thanks for the videos, pollaxes are quite fearsome weapons indeed.

 

I'd like to add two armour designs to the topic, perhaps a bit too advanced for the time period that the game's in (though, of course, some cultures could feasibly possess a more advanced technology; PE doesn't have to closely follow history either) :

 

 

 

 

 

I really like both of them - really elegant and elaborate, fitting a nobleman or perhaps a wealthy adventurer. Those designs also, I reckon, illustrate the point that has been made many times in these topics - armour really doesn't have to be "adorned" with spikes and oversized pauldrons to look interesting.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Karranthain

[SophosTheWise]

[PoisonWar]

 

Hey guys, new here, so I thought I'd thow in some more armors that look awesome. Here are the four I found.

 

Armor and Cape Renaissance gold

 

League of legends is probably not the best advisor when it comes to armor, but I feel they've really nailed the Iron Solari skin from her:

 

Jeanne d'Arc (mini statue)

 

Then there's Tyrael's armor from diablo, I love the combination of cloth and metal

[Karranthain]

Some interesting and colourful knight armours :

 

 

 

[Grotesque]

 

http://www.pegasomodels.com/productdetails_en.asp?id=106

 

this miniature producer always had accurate historical armor representation  in their models

check out all the eras on the site

being passionate about  gladiator armors, their representation of those types of armor in relation to the types of gladiators, are very accurate

so I conclude the others representations must be also

Edited February 4, 2013 by Grotesque

[the itis]

Excuse me if this theme was posted already, but I didn't see any example of historic islamic arms and armor. I don't know if it will be appropriate for PE, but it is distinctly ornate, beautiful and sinuous in design compared to the hard lines of western Europe. Good for visual contrast between cultures.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shadenuat]

Turks knew the fun of good saber fighting like nobody else.Their weapons were superb. Persians were't too far behind either:

 

When I'm imagining elvish cavalry I always want to give them these

 

 

Cut stoopid mortal humans heads on a ride.

[Karranthain]

Excuse me if this theme was posted already, but I didn't see any example of historic islamic arms and armor. I don't know if it will be appropriate for PE, but it is distinctly ornate, beautiful and sinuous in design compared to the hard lines of western Europe. Good for visual contrast between cultures.

 

Some examples have been posted in this topic (e.g. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62316-armour-weapon-designs-a-plea-part-iii/page-2?do=findComment&comment=1279218 ; http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62316-armour-weapon-designs-a-plea-part-iii/page-6?do=findComment&comment=1280755).

 

And I absolutely agree that there should be a visual contrast between cultures - ideally, we'd be able to tell who it is we're fighting at a first glance. E.g. Aedyrians would use, as Shadenuat suggest, sabres and look perhaps like this :

 

 

 

 

In direct contrast, a typical knight from Dyrwood would like this :

 

 

And yes, those examples are from different periods, but the basic idea stands - each culture should have a distinct visual identity.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Karranthain

[Jarmo]

And I absolutely agree that there should be a visual contrast between cultures - ideally, we'd be able to tell who it is we're fighting at a first glance. E.g. Aedyrians would use, as Shadenuat suggest, sabres and look perhaps like this :

 

 

 

Whee.. what's that? Poland - Lithuania area, ca 1600 or so? Right time frame.

And the halberdier is not too far off either. I'm actually a firm believer in that full body armor was abandoned

too early and too permanently (as far as performance goes). Not necessarily price-performance.

 

English troops in India and Africa, likewise in North America. Lots of close combat.

Lots of situations where troops would have benefited of mail armor or breastplate.

[Tsuga C]

In direct contrast, a typical knight from Dyrwood would like this :

 

 

And yes, those examples are from different periods, but the basic idea stands - each culture should have a distinct visual identity.

I couldn't agree more. Different geographic areas at different levels of technological progress should have markedly different clothing, arms, and panoplies.

 

Love that illustration!

Edited February 7, 2013 by Tsuga C

[Diagoras]

While I'm not seeing any civilizations that mimic Sengoku Jidai Japan, I'm going to toss these pretty stylized pieces into the pot, if only to continue to reinforce the "realistic doesn't mean colorless" trend we have going. I think that perception comes from MMS, and has just leaked into people's assumptions about realistic Medieval arms and armor.

 

 

[Karranthain]

Speaking of cultural contrasts, I've found a fantastic piece :

 

Edited February 8, 2013 by Karranthain

[Diagoras]

Spanish tercios:

 

 

And an armored arquebusier - why carry one gun when you can carry two?

 

Edited February 8, 2013 by Diagoras

[AGX-17]

I haven't checked this particular product line of threads in a while, is this model year still mostly people looking for real world realistic armor and weapons? i.e. steel plate armor being the apex of defense despite guns easily penetrating steel plate armor? No fictional materials, alloys or forging methods providing weapons and armor stronger than steel allowed? Appearance must conform to real-world examples?

Edited February 8, 2013 by AGX-17

[Diagoras]

 

despite guns easily penetrating steel plate armor

 

Say what? Want to qualify that a bit, or are we just leaving that as a general statement?

[Shadenuat]

I haven't checked this particular product line of threads in a while, is

this model year still mostly people looking for real world realistic

armor and weapons?

 

For me this thread is about admiring real, working pieces of war equipment because of them... being real and working. It's not about making game 100% mirror of specific time period from real history, but about showing stuff in it which I believe could work in combat. It does't really matter if it's unnecessary ornated, like Warhammer art, but if it looks like it was made for the purpose of killing ****, not just for designer to sublimate on his Cloud's swords, I will like it.

[Karranthain]

Whee.. what's that? Poland - Lithuania area, ca 1600 or so? Right time frame.

 

Aye, that's a Cossack ataman (officer). Quite stylish outfit, isn't it?

 

Love that illustration!

 

Me too, especially the detail on the sword.

 

I couldn't agree more. Different geographic areas at different levels of technological progress should have markedly different clothing, arms, and panoplies.

 

Absolutely, in my opinion conceptualizing contrasting cultural visual identities is definitely well worth going the extra mile for. Ideally, the clothing, arms and panoplies would suffice to paint an accurate picture of a culture, e.g. :

 

Aedyr Empire

The Aedyr are old and powerful nation - but some consider them set in their ways, or even backwards. This is strongly reflected in their military doctrine - the Empire has no standing army, instead it relies on wartime mobilisation of the noble class (though it should noted that even a simple commoner can rise to official ennoblement). Aedyr are known for their ecletic style of clothing and armour, mixing both Elvish and Human influences.

 

 

 

 

Free Palatinate of Dyrwood

Due to a long history of conflict, all denizens of Dyrwood are accustomed to constant warfare and to hardships - as a result, they are practical people. As the number of the fighting elite - the Knightly orders are simply too few, both burghers and peasants are required to serve in the militia, forming the bulk of the Dyrwood armies.

 

 

 

 

 

Vailian Republics

Being merchant people, the citizens of the Vailian city states value style over substance and like to let everyone know that they're wealthy. Their armies consist mainly of well-paid mercenaries, who tend to uphold the same values when it comes to fashion.

 

 

 

 

In other words, there's a story behind all that equipment.

 

Disclaimer : I'm not necessarily advocating that these cultures should (or will be) be represented as such, not am I advocating complete realism. For me, the best solution would be to use real arms & armour as a point of reference and to extrapolate from there; how would warfare develop in the world of PE? Which weapon designs would be developed? etc. In my opinion, the aim here should be maintaining the verisimilitude, first and foremost.

[Jarmo]

I haven't checked this particular product line of threads in a while, is this model year still mostly people looking for real world realistic armor and weapons? i.e. steel plate armor being the apex of defense despite guns easily penetrating steel plate armor? No fictional materials, alloys or forging methods providing weapons and armor stronger than steel allowed? Appearance must conform to real-world examples?

 

With some qualifications.

 

I for one pretty much expect there to be stronger and better materials than steel. But plate would still remain better than something that'd cover less area. I'm expecting guns to do damage through plate, but less than through some lesser protection.

 

Appearance doesn't need to conform to real world example, but there's reason to expect real world examples to serve as inspiration and guidelines. Actually the thread is mostly about showing the real world examples do not mean plain and dull. Though... even if the appearance doesn't need to copy real world, humongous shoulder spikes that'll penetrate your skull and rip arteries if you raise your arms, should not be the norm.