Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part III).

[Jarmo]

BTW watched a neat documentary thingie on viking Ulfberht swords and making them.

I think this is the same one: 

Finnish version http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1902929

 

Cool stuff all over. Didn't know nothing about this whole thing before.

 

Damascus steel... dunno. Read something somewhere about there being nanotube-like structures in there.

Quick google: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061116-nanotech-swords.html

 

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if the swords were as good or better as todays tech allowes.

The important thing is how good they were in comparison to other swords at the time. Which apparently was "pretty damn good".

 

But how about the fabled Toledo Steel? Just good stuff or really something special in there?

I could google it up, but then again, I should actually do some work now... :/

[centurionofprix]

That's a curious image to illustrate your post, you can't see the blade. :D The hilt itself is not pattern welded, that's all (silver I'd guess) inlay.

Yeah. I tried to find a picture of an original piece with the pattern welding still visible. Bit tricky as it happens. The hilt inlays were too gorgeous not to post, however, so you have to imagine the combination of the pattern welded blade with the hilt.

 

But how about the fabled Toledo Steel? Just good stuff or really something special in there?

I could google it up, but then again, I should actually do some work now... :/

 

AFAIK the steel wasn't special aside from its purity and the terrific craftsmanship of the weapons themselves.

Edited May 30, 2013 by centurionofprix

[centurionofprix]

...

Edited May 30, 2013 by centurionofprix

[Merlkir]

That ULFBERHT documentary I can sort of recommend. Sort of. The smithing is legit, that guy btw is also quite experienced with wootz/bulat/damascene steel. 

 

However! The rest of the documentary is very very specifically a single guy's view on the issue of the ULFBERHT swords, many sword experts expressed their polite disagreement with a lot of what's been said.

 

For absolutely gorgeous pattern welded swords (very very good quality replicas of original pieces), one has to look no further than Patrick Bárta and his TEMPL workshop:

 

http://www.templ.net/english/weapons-antiquity_and_early_middle_age.php

 

Huuuuge pictures of insanely beautiful swords like this one:

 

 

Edited May 30, 2013 by Merlkir

[centurionofprix]

http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/143-sword/143-hilt2-v.jpg

http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/143-sword/143-hilt-v.jpg

http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/143-sword/143-main-v.jpg

 

Oh man. Thanks for pointing him out. That stuff is outrageous!

 

 

Here's a later design I think would fit P:E. The schiavona:

 

Edited May 30, 2013 by centurionofprix

[Diagoras]

Karranthain, I can always count on you to plume the thread up when it needs it most.

 

Defensive works and fortifications are a bit outside the purview of this thread, but since there's going to be a stronghold I feel that showing off the defenses of the era is in order. Below is the layout of the city-fortress of Rhodes in the late 15th/early 16th century.

 

 

The ditch outside of the curtain wall. On the right is the counterscarp, a stone faced drop into the ditch that enemies would have to climb down while under fire from the defenders. The wall on the left rises straight out of the floor of the ditch, meaning that it is high and difficult to climb for attackers while still preventing a low profile to enemy artillery.

 

 

This is a tenaille - a sort of miniature wall in the center of the ditch. It's a forward defensive position that defenders can use to provide enfilading fire until they're forced to fall back to the main wall, as well as an additional defense against enemy cannon fire.

 

 

 

Below is a bulwark surrounding a round tower. A bulwark in this context is a thick, modern defensive structure constructed around an older tower that provides defense against cannon fire, a platform for heavier cannons, as well as one or two additional levels for arquebusiers/bowmen to fire from. The tower itself would support more cannons and soldiers. This one is semi-circular, as opposed to the ideal pentagonal shape that will emerge later.

 

 

Another tower reinforced by a bulwark, the Tower of St. Nicholas. It was the site of fierce amphibious attacks during the Siege of 1480, as the Turks attempted to end its control over the ocean and reduce a source of enfilading cannon fire.

 

 

The Jannissaries breach the Post of Italy in the same siege and are met by the defenders in a desperate struggle.

 

[Rostere]

Even with all it's inaccuracies, I like 19th century historical paintings. Here's one depicting 14th century Gotland (meh, maybe 100 years too early to be relevant to PE but anyway):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of great clothes, armour and weapons there.

[coffeetable]

Still, even metals of the 20th century that weren't practically available in Olden Tymes (aluminum, titanium) can't compare to good steel when it comes to making weapons and armor.  As the old timer cyclists like to say, steel is real.

This isn't entirely true. Yeah, as far as pure metals go steel is certainly superior, but there are piles of modern alloys and composite constructions that surpass bog standard steel in every way.

[Lephys]

This isn't entirely true. Yeah, as far as pure metals go steel is certainly superior, but there are piles of modern alloys and composite constructions that surpass bog standard steel in every way.

Even against swords and warhammers? 8P

[Karranthain]

Great piece, Rostere. Do share more!

 

In return, I present to you, the medieval bros :

 

 

 

[Greensleeve]

Brilliant tournament armours. I really like the foot armour in the background too. 

[Stiler]

Haven't visited one of these threads in a while, see it's developed into a bit of a historical arms/armour topic as well.

 

Has anyone brought up Bucklers?

 

This is an area that I have yet to ever see a game (or movie) really do justice at all.

 

Bucklers are generally treated as the "crappy smallest form of shields" that you start out with and move up toward the often "Bigger = better" type of progression, where you use a shield for defense and it usually takes away from your attack (IE as most shield users in rpgs are treated as "Tanks" of some sort).

 

When in truth Bucklers were one of the oldest and also longest forms of fighting, even outlasting most of the more well known styles of shields.

 

Bucklers, unlike most other shield types, weren't strapped to your arm but rather simply held in your hand, they were small and quite light. You could let go of them if need be (IE if someone caught it or attempted to pull it) and on the flip side, they could also serve as an offensive weapon to boot.

 

You could have sharpened edges to them which could serve as a means to cut with the edges of your buckler. A spike in the middle or teeth/latch (which could even be attached/folded away when not needed). Which could serve as a means to "catch" someone's weapon (and then pull it from their grasp or hold it away so you can attack). 

 

It was such an extremely versatile item that was so useful, it was used even more so then many shield types, yet it's often far overlooked when it comes to any type of modern media.

 

They could even be used better against polearms then other shields, as you could let go of them they wouldn't be as easly "caught" like bigger shields by a polearm.

 

 

Main disadvantage to bucklers were vs range (Archers), but with plate armour that was negated quite a bit.

 

You often see bucklers a lot in many historical old paintings, usually hanging from the hips of soldiers and knight's, even more then you might see the larger shields.

 

It would be nice if bucklers would get treated well in PE and not just be the usual "early game low quality shield" that they usually are.

 

 

As far as combat goes. I'd love to see any kind of  half swording style combat or some form of good use of trips and catches.

 

 

Combat evolved throughout history and armoured longsword fighting could rely a lot on trips and other styles that mixed in quite  a bit of "wrestling" into combat. As you'd want to strike at a weak/vunerable part of their body (Arm pit, groin, neck, visor slits, etc) so getting someone to the ground was an excellent way at doing this.

 

Here is a good read on a way that two armoured men in plate with swords would most likely have fought, nothing like you might see in movies:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

 

There are  historical documents on fighting in the middle ages, sadly not a ton of them have survived but there are a few, some of my favorite are from Hans Talhoffer who was a German fencing master in the mid 15th century who learned a lot from the techniques of Johannes Liechtenauer ( a 14th century fencing master).

 

There are some great manuals you can find here and look at various fighting styles and combat maneuvers they did.

 

http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm

 

 

Sorry if I got a bit off topic.

 

Regarding the "looks" of weapons/armour, I think many real historical armour and weapons look quite nice, and is also an area often overlooked.

 

Most people for example picture "plate" armour as being just all the same silver colouring and clean/plain, but there were many great designed suits of armour and it could often be decorated with everything from paintings (you can paint on armour, look at the "Black Sallets" as they are known) and even some had ways to attach cloth to them for decoration purposes.

 

IE: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2700

 

Then you get into things like Inlays, embossing, the color of the steel (various techniques can be done to make the colour different, from black, to blue, to golden, etc) among riveting and other design choices. "Real" armour could be quite colourful and not at all like many people think.

 

 

Not really a fan of the fantasy style of Giant/huge Pauldrons and spikes protruding from everywhere though lol.

 

Though I understand it's a fantasy game and I don't expect it to be realistic or to adhere to our own historical types of armoru/weapons , just my personal opinion.

[Woldan]

I've always been a fan of munitions and half to three-quarters armors. I'd love to have half-armors as a subtype of armor in PE with different stats than full plate mail. (Better attack speed, bonus to blunt but less overall protection especially against projectile weapons than full plate and that kind of stuff)

 

 

 

Love the patina color on this one. And yes, hes smiling, hell, if I were a cool plate armor I'd smile too!

 

 

Edited May 31, 2013 by Woldan

[khango]

It really ruins the mythology of historical metallurgy but yeah, even relatively low-grade chromoly made any ol' place today is much more consistent and workable than the best stuff from ages past.  Today, we can control heat to such a precise degree and we can refine ore so well that it's pretty easy to make and shape good alloys.

 

Still, even metals of the 20th century that weren't practically available in Olden Tymes (aluminum, titanium) can't compare to good steel when it comes to making weapons and armor.  As the old timer cyclists like to say, steel is real.

 

Though if there were a magical metal that could be tempered like steel but which was somewhat lighter, tougher, stronger, and could take a sharp edge or point it would be used widely instead of steel for those who could afford it. It'd allow for thinner, lighter, and possibly longer weapons which in turn would allow for some increased speed and a lighter load. Though it wouldn't be an overwhelming advantage.

 

 

All that said, has there been anyone actively trying to make old-style weapons with new style tech? Most modern usages fall into either sport or re-enactment which seem to preclude any application of functional advances.

 

 

Less related, will armor come in layers in PE? It's probably been brought up/mentioned/answered before, but historically I think armor came layered, like jerkin, hauberk, cuirass and so on.

 

 

Half and 3/4 armor would be nice to see because in the colonial conquest I think there was a transition to lighter/less armor from full plate among the conquering forces as full plate was overkill against the native populations and because of improving technology.

 

Actually, here is an interesting blurb about Conquistador armor:

http://www.nps.gov/cabr/historyculture/conquistador-clothing.htm

 

I guess only really well off head honchos had the heavy armor at all.

Edited May 31, 2013 by khango

[Diagoras]

>Most people for example picture "plate" armour as being just all the same silver colouring and clean/plain, but there were many great designed suits of armour and it could often be decorated with everything from paintings (you can paint on armour, look at the "Black Sallets" as they are known) and even some had ways to attach cloth to them for decoration purposes.

 

Absolutely true. I know 17th century Winged Hussars were considered impressive on the battlefield in part because they actually polished their armor to a silver gleam, when most cavalry burnished it or coated it with linseed oil to ward off rust and stains.

[Tauron]

just reading this article and might be people already posted but still very interesting

 

http://io9.com/the-weirdest-and-fiercest-helmets-from-the-age-of-armor-510686611

[Karranthain]

 

Regarding the "looks" of weapons/armour, I think many real historical armour and weapons look quite nice, and is also an area often overlooked.

 

Most people for example picture "plate" armour as being just all the same silver colouring and clean/plain, but there were many great designed suits of armour and it could often be decorated with everything from paintings (you can paint on armour, look at the "Black Sallets" as they are known) and even some had ways to attach cloth to them for decoration purposes.

 

IE: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2700

 

Then you get into things like Inlays, embossing, the color of the steel (various techniques can be done to make the colour different, from black, to blue, to golden, etc) among riveting and other design choices. "Real" armour could be quite colourful and not at all like many people think.

 

Indeed, here's a perfect example :

 

 

As for the bucklers - I'd love to see them in the game too. And, as you've pointed out, I hope they have a place - I'd hate it if they were just inferior to bigger shields in every aspect (as is often the case).

[Woldan]

The most overlooked armor, scale mail!

 

 

 

[Jarmo]

I think that's Lamellar, even more overlooked armor.

And yea. I'd like to see both lamellar and scale.

[Gfted1]

Im not familiar with Lamellar but the scales seem to overlap in the wrong direction. On first appearances, it looks like any downward blow would slide easily into one of those gaps and penetrate.

[Lephys]

Im not familiar with Lamellar but the scales seem to overlap in the wrong direction. On first appearances, it looks like any downward blow would slide easily into one of those gaps and penetrate.

I'm really not trying to be sarcastic here (genuine curiosity), but wouldn't that mean that, in regular scale/lamellar, any upward blow would slide easily in and murderfy?

Edited June 11, 2013 by Lephys

[Jarmo]

Lamellar was used a lot by byzantines and east from there (nicely in PE timeframe).

Vulnerable to upwards or downwards strokes, mail is better there.

But a better protection against arrows (no holes, though a tight mail would serve as well) and just as good against normal slashes and thrusts.

 

Scale armor has the scales attached to cloth or leather underlay, lamellar is when the scales are tied to each other, not to any superstructure.

There'd be padding worn underneath anyway, same as mail.

 

I'm not really sure how lamellar is better or worse than scale armor, can't see immediate advantage from one or the other.

Brigandine (with cloth-armor plates/scales-cloth, -or leather in place of cloth - build) is supposedly the best of such armors.

[Gfted1]

I'm really not trying to be sarcastic here (genuine curiosity), but wouldn't that mean that, in regular scale/lamellar, any upward blow would slide easily in and murderfy?

I suppose, but that's kind of an unwieldy swinging motion. I believe most blows are delivered from an overhand or parallel swinging motion and that's why scale type armors overlap from top to bottom, like the scales of a fish.

 

 

I'm not really sure how lamellar is better or worse than scale armor, can't see immediate advantage from one or the other.

Yeah, I just found the design interesting since, to me, it seems to go directly against what I would want my armor to do. Scale armor absorbs and redirects blows to slide down / away but your example of lamellar looks like it would almost catch a sword blade in its plates because they are open at the top.

[Lephys]

I suppose, but that's kind of an unwieldy swinging motion. I believe most blows are delivered from an overhand or parallel swinging motion and that's why scale type armors overlap from top to bottom, like the scales of a fish.

True, true. I just figured maybe there was some "Actually... the way the scales were designed, it would even be pretty difficult to bypass them with even an UPWARD swing, even if you could effectively land such a blow in the heat of combat" tidbit someone had to toss in, heh. I am ignorant and seek knowledge.

 

Of course, once you get something like that, you've got that "It's pretty unlikely that anyone's going to try and swing UPWARD at me" thing going on. So, if you're the one person who focuses on perfecting upward-directed maneuvers for that very reason, you'd probably have the element of surprise. Still less feasible than regular combat techniques, I'm sure, no matter how much you focus on it. I've just got an unhealthy interest in "that's just crazy enough to work, and no one will expect it" maneuvers. 8P

Edited June 12, 2013 by Lephys

[Woldan]

Its definitely a design flaw, but thats kind of missing the point here, just imagine the scales being positioned the other way around.

So, more scaly awesomeness!
 

 

 

Banded mail!