Crafting and Classes

[Osvir]

I've touched this subject in a couple of threads (this one per example) and just want to know what people think about it. I searched for "Craft", "Class" tags but could only find 2 threads so sorry if this has already been spoken about.

 

Crafting tied to different classes.

 

I can see a Wizard being a better Alchemist than a Monk, as an example. Not necessarily forcing me to go with a Monk and a Wizard in my party, but hinting that I could Craft better things if I had both of them in my party setup.

 

Likewise, if I have a Rogue (who could be average at Alchemy and Herbalism) he becomes a vital part, won't be able to create as good potions with the Wizard as the Monk+Wizard setup.

 

Should Crafts be tied to specific Classes? If they are, they could possible be more personal to the character and perhaps even included into a sub-class that handles Potions specifically as a tool, rather than a trade.

 

My mindset is that this isn't Skyrim and we have several different Classes capable of handling different situations, but together they are one character. Having a Fighter that maintains the armor and equipment of the group by repairing, upgrading gear and so on, a Rogue that gathers herbs, whilst the Wizard prepares some chemistry in "camp mode". Macro-management.

 

How would I be able to carry an entire Alchemist Set with me? This is a question regarding Alchemy is a craft... pack mule could be one solution

[Hormalakh]

Interesting idea.

 

I would consider wizards as enchanters "crafting magic." Fighters perhaps as weapon/armor repairers. Rogues as alchemists. Rangers as ammo crafting.... well the more I write these out, the more I realize there really shouldn't be crafting skills tied to any particular class except for perhaps "thematically tied crafting" like poisons for rogues, and enchanting for wizards.

 

I'm not sure. This should probably be thought through though (thot thru tho).

Edited November 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Osvir]

thought through though (thot thru tho).

 

Haha.

 

Yes I came to the same conclusion that it'd be a lot to think about. But crafting in itself is a lot to think about, what is the most effective method? Copying all the other crafting systems out there and make it a trade? Or an ability that you need in combat situations? Hard-locked to locations? (Kingdoms of Amalur has alchemist sets at houses, and a blacksmith you can go to). The only thing I disliked about KoA was that I had 20 items I couldn't use because I was constantly missing 1 component. I haven't gotten very far in Arcanum but I felt it likewise there, I imagine the same thing happening for me in that game.

[Hormalakh]

thought through though (thot thru tho).

 

Haha.

 

Yes I came to the same conclusion that it'd be a lot to think about. But crafting in itself is a lot to think about, what is the most effective method? Copying all the other crafting systems out there and make it a trade? Or an ability that you need in combat situations? Hard-locked to locations? (Kingdoms of Amalur has alchemist sets at houses, and a blacksmith you can go to). The only thing I disliked about KoA was that I had 20 items I couldn't use because I was constantly missing 1 component. I haven't gotten very far in Arcanum but I felt it likewise there, I imagine the same thing happening for me in that game.

 

Dang man you were just playing BG1 last week. You're going through all the games aren't you? I don't know much about KoA, but yeah I had something of a similar feeling with Arcanum. I want components to be reusable for different items. Saltpeter is like that in Arcanum, it is very useful for a lot of explosive items.

[High Octane 881]

Sounds similar to D&D 3 cross-class and class specific skill system. It does make sense to me when implemented with a class system like what we will be seeing with PE.

The only thing I disliked about KoA was that I had 20 items I couldn't use because I was constantly missing 1 component.

This has always been a huge annoince to me. It's one thing if it is intentionally an incredibly rare component and by extension the formula or blueprint it's being applied to is likewise rare and valuable, but they usually aren't. Most of the time it just seems to be that one component that's tucked away in some remote corner of the world that you never visit.

[Jojobobo]

Arcanum isn't too bad for crafting, each item only requires two components and most of those components are easy enough to find as long as you know where to look - it certainly doesn't seem as bad as having 20 items dependant on sourcing one more to build something. You can get saltpeter in both general stores and technology stores (perhaps maybe gunsmiths too) so it's not rare and if you wait a day store stock will regenerate.

 

I'd be for class specific (or at least specialised) crafting, it would help give each class a more unique feel and enhance the fact that you need a varied party to make a large assortment of junk.

[Osvir]

thought through though (thot thru tho).

 

Haha.

 

Yes I came to the same conclusion that it'd be a lot to think about. But crafting in itself is a lot to think about, what is the most effective method? Copying all the other crafting systems out there and make it a trade? Or an ability that you need in combat situations? Hard-locked to locations? (Kingdoms of Amalur has alchemist sets at houses, and a blacksmith you can go to). The only thing I disliked about KoA was that I had 20 items I couldn't use because I was constantly missing 1 component. I haven't gotten very far in Arcanum but I felt it likewise there, I imagine the same thing happening for me in that game.

 

Dang man you were just playing BG1 last week. You're going through all the games aren't you? I don't know much about KoA, but yeah I had something of a similar feeling with Arcanum. I want components to be reusable for different items. Saltpeter is like that in Arcanum, it is very useful for a lot of explosive items.

 

I dropped Kingdoms of Amalur after a day or two like a month ago. Baldur's Gate is something I've been playing for like... a couple of months now (it's going slow, I'm in the Sewers of Athkatla on my first quest pretty much). Tried the very first M&M for the second time and that was a remarkably enjoyable experience (Like hearing Jim Morrison for the very first time), the first time I tried it (a year ago?) I didn't engage myself at all (I played it like it was a modern rpg xD what can I say, I'm modern-day RPG handicapped, which can be a benefit as well).

[High Octane 881]

Sadly the modern RPG is rarely a good thing.

[Hellfell]

Like I said before, I believe crafting should be done exclusively by NPC craftsmen, people you encounter in the world who are professionals in their business. They can manage your needs while you are on a dungeon diving rampage.

 

 

[Frisk]

Hiring craftsmen would also be a nice way to fill up that stronghold players will be able to get. Just post a "Wanted: Alchemist" note, and hire one.

[rjshae]

Hiring craftsmen would also be a nice way to fill up that stronghold players will be able to get. Just post a "Wanted: Alchemist" note, and hire one.

Yeah, I like that idea as well, particularly for the crafting that requires master level skills. The player can supply the need for an expanded laboratory with assistants, plus the acquisition of rare items and formulae, while the master crafter supplies the skills and experience. I've never liked the option of spending precious skill points on crafting.

[High Octane 881]

Never really made sense from a roleplaying stand point, especially if it was a skill that was developed over the adventure. You have to suspend a lot of disbelief to conclude that an adventurer has the spare time to master smithing or any such craft. I do like the idea of having employed experts for your crafting needs.

[Heresiarch]

I never liked player crafting mechanics in SP RPGs. They tend to be tedious, time consuming, and possible money cheats. Visiting various types of crafters to use the exotic materials you looted is fine, but having your character make some iron mail by hand seems quite a bit off.

 

Alchemy is the only exception in those titles, where it actually does something. Like Witcher 1, for instance, or... or Witcher 1. Did I already mention Witcher 1? Because pretty much everywhere else alchemy was made a dubious affair at best and a source or instant health/mana supply at worst.

[Hellfell]

yeah, populating your stronghold with NPC craftsmen will not only give you a reason to return to that place but also prevent the stronghold from being a ghost town.

 

I really want to return to my home to chat with NPCs, check equipment, store some items, craft a thing or two, get a mini quest. It adds a lot of roleplaying value.

[Sacred_Path]

I never liked player crafting mechanics in SP RPGs. They tend to be tedious, time consuming, and possible money cheats.

 

I'm not against crafting in general, but yes, don't let players sell anything they craft.

[Utukka]

If characters can craft....I wouldn't limit it exactly the way you suggested. This game from what I've gathered so far, and what most people seem to want in their RPGs is to be able to define their character by their own choices. Restricting you to a specific "craft" per class, is one more thing that defines your character. Also keep in mind, anyone can use heavy armor so it would make sense to possibly know how to upkeep it yourself. Before it seems I'm against the idea completely...I could however see something like this....a Cleric who typically is restricted from using nonblunt weapons/arrows, might not know how to make or repair those items being that their class has no use for them. Then again, a Cleric might be a blacksmith in the old days before "the event" so who knows?

[Osvir]

Hiring craftsmen would also be a nice way to fill up that stronghold players will be able to get. Just post a "Wanted: Alchemist" note, and hire one.

Yeah, I like that idea as well, particularly for the crafting that requires master level skills. The player can supply the need for an expanded laboratory with assistants, plus the acquisition of rare items and formulae, while the master crafter supplies the skills and experience. I've never liked the option of spending precious skill points on crafting.

 

Loving these ideas.

 

P:E: Soul Unknown (conceptual)

[BetrayTheWorld]

Interesting idea.

 

I would consider wizards as enchanters "crafting magic." Fighters perhaps as weapon/armor repairers. Rogues as alchemists. Rangers as ammo crafting.... well the more I write these out, the more I realize there really shouldn't be crafting skills tied to any particular class except for perhaps "thematically tied crafting" like poisons for rogues, and enchanting for wizards.

 

I'm not sure. This should probably be thought through though (thot thru tho).

 

Yeah, I think I'd just prefer to have crafting skills, and select those skills on whatever character I want to have them, much like in nwn2.

[HansKrSG]

Generally speaking, I am not for this idea. I can see how people with more magical power would be better at making things with magical components, like magic items and potions for example. I can also see it be restricted or enhanced by other stats that seem important to the skill in question, like strength or endurance for smithing for example. Limiting it by class though, I can't get behind.

[Osvir]

Generally speaking, I am not for this idea. I can see how people with more magical power would be better at making things with magical components, like magic items and potions for example. I can also see it be restricted or enhanced by other stats that seem important to the skill in question, like strength or endurance for smithing for example. Limiting it by class though, I can't get behind.

 

Well not limiting but benefiting certain classes. One class being better at Alchemy than the other, doesn't mean that the other can't do Alchemy. You are going to have 6 party members (Unless you play Solo of course, which still would allow you to craft everything, just not as good as having a 6 man party). If Crafting is a Craft Skill for your party, I almost expect that the game is going to be designed that it would be wisest to scatter the Crafting on all of your characters to get a "Full Picture" instead of having 1 Rogue that is 120% Utility and Support and he knows Smithing/Alchemy/Herbalism/Enchanting/Trap-Making etc. etc.

 

I feel like I'm behind the idea of having Craftsmen scattered out in the world more though, and even Craftsmen (X-Com Engineers) that you can hire and bring to your Stronghold. If most Engineers (I'm just gonna call it that) are generic "Hirelings" there could be 1 or 2 Epic/Important Engineer(s) in the world that you can hire/quest to hire. Likewise if P:E will have anything like "Scientists" as well (though that would take it one step further which could get complicated), it'd be cool to have some Necromancers in the basement of the stronghold that studies the spiritual realms of the soul

[Jarmo]

But this does bring up the thought of crafting as a team.

 

So if you have an alchemist and a herbalist, they could team up to brew potions neither of them could do alone?

Or armorer + enchanter, working together could enchant the sword while it's being cast,

make the forge work better and craft the sword in such a fashion it's more receptible to enchantments?

 

It's often been a production line type thing, where one character does his bit and passes the item to the next one.

But I don't remember ever seeing a setup where 2 (or more) professionals take part at the same time.

[.Leif.]

What do monks craft? Lectures?

I don't really agree that certain classes should be tied to certain professions. It frees up the rogue player who wants to dabble in herbalism and the barbarian who would like to try his or her hand in alchemy. Some druids may work the forge to create powerful weapons and stead-fast armor. Each profession or skill-set should have interesting interactions with each of the classes. I think it would limit gameplay if certain skills were linked to certain classes. Let me determine what my character is best at, not class-bonus lists.

 

The only hard-and-fast rule I would say is regarding the magical enchantment of items. Perhaps the Druid, Cipher, Wizard and Priest all have a different list of enchantments, I think it would be silly to make one class, say the Wizard, the 'best' enchanter. Why would you bother putting points into enchanting as a Priest if you knew you would never be as good as a Wizard enchanter?

[Osvir]

But this does bring up the thought of crafting as a team.

 

So if you have an alchemist and a herbalist, they could team up to brew potions neither of them could do alone?

Or armorer + enchanter, working together could enchant the sword while it's being cast,

make the forge work better and craft the sword in such a fashion it's more receptible to enchantments?

 

It's often been a production line type thing, where one character does his bit and passes the item to the next one.

But I don't remember ever seeing a setup where 2 (or more) professionals take part at the same time.

 

^Pretty much this is what I'm going for, .Leif. and it's not about having 1 Class being Inclusive and then Excludes all the other Crafts, more like "The Wizard gets +2 to Alchemy but -2 to Smithing"~

 

@Jarmo: Glad someone saw it

Edited November 14, 2012 by Osvir