Verisimilitude

[Jojobobo]

Being as broad and open ended as possible, what would you like to see in the game to establish verisimilitude or realism? People have already stated things along the lines they want armour to have a historical basis, this is only a tiny portion of what could make the world feel more organic to you.

 

To get the ball rolling I'd like a working civil service that did things, at least for certain civilisations. Maybe you could gain access to their parliament and witness a political debate, and you could see whatever version of their police force (or town guard, whatever) in action; apprehending muggers and breaking down doors to drag a murderer into daylight, what have you. Firemen would stop blazes caused in bakeries from getting out of control, the juidicary could been seen sentencing people and they may even have an organised delivery service running letters around the city. Ultimately I'd want something where you could believe if it was ripped out of the game and plonked in medieval Europe it would be a workable system, with all bases covered and no gaps in logic or continuity as to how does this work or that.

 

The activities of these services would be on a long loop, so yes you might witness the same thing twice if you played the game long enough - but there would only be a small chance of catching the loop at the right time and seeing a similar occurence twice. Towns should basically feel like even when the character isn't there they are living, maybe developing (and not in a story state dependant way), without you - having a feasible model for how the civil services work is quite an important feature in that.

[Sacred_Path]

A few things that irritate me:

 

- Abundant material wealth w/o any explanation. Village blacksmiths swimming in swords, gold everywhere.

 

- Lack of citizens in cities. If for some reason you don't want to put many (filler) NPCs in one place, make it a town, not a sprawling city.

 

- Unexplained (lack of) buildings. Cities that have no walls, or buildings that are far larger than any medieval couterparts (it's teh magic I know)

 

- Thriving communities, again without walls or many guards, when the entire countryside is crawling with monsters.

[Hellfell]

Regarding game mechanics, I don't want to see respawning monsters where it doesn't make sense (in the middle of a fight). I don't want to see a big area filled with enemies who are just sitting in their rooms waiting for you to come kill them. I want believable encounters (plz, no 1 thief vs 6 party members).

 

Actually I don't mind fantasy armor, revealing clothes and such as long as it is believably presented. Yet I don't want huge final fantasy-ish weapons and overly flashy melee combat.

 

I don't want the location called "XXXX village" with 2 buildings - an inn and a mayor's house.

 

I want appropriate reaction if I go to somebodys place and steal their stuff from the chests.

 

I don't want to see a corpse I made lying in the street and nobody gives a single frak about it.

 

Finally, I don't want to kill rats as my first quest.

[rjshae]

Unfortunately this game is just a simulation with a limited budget. There's no way they can approach the level of realism that will leave you believing such a place exists. Corners will be cut, some level of simplification will be applied, and there are always going to be actions you'd like to be able to do but can't because it wasn't implemented. At most you can hope for a good level of grittiness, plausibility, and attention to detail.

[Jojobobo]

Unfortunately this game is just a simulation with a limited budget. There's no way they can approach the level of realism that will leave you believing such a place exists. Corners will be cut, some level of simplification will be applied, and there are always going to be actions you'd like to be able to do but can't because it wasn't implemented. At most you can hope for a good level of grittiness, plausibility, and attention to detail.

True, but still there's probably somethings that could be put into to increase realism without being resource and labour intensive. Threads like this might just reveal a couple that aren't immediately obvious - but perhaps my fully fledged civil service is a bit far fetched.

[Pshaw]

The only realism I really care about is having plausible characters. They can be touch over the top but I don't want them being 1 dimensional.

 

Aside from that if they allow people to be resurrected from the dead I'd like it clearly defined someplace why you can / cannot be resurrected in certain situations. I hate moments where NPC death is show as an important event yet people can just be resurrected with spells/potions without a problem.

[jezz555]

Unfortunately this game is just a simulation with a limited budget. There's no way they can approach the level of realism that will leave you believing such a place exists. Corners will be cut, some level of simplification will be applied, and there are always going to be actions you'd like to be able to do but can't because it wasn't implemented. At most you can hope for a good level of grittiness, plausibility, and attention to detail.

 

Was it really necessary to state this? It's a given that the game isn't going to live up to all of our expectations, but this is a forum, and until something new is realized their isn't much else to discuss.

[rjshae]

Unfortunately this game is just a simulation with a limited budget. There's no way they can approach the level of realism that will leave you believing such a place exists. Corners will be cut, some level of simplification will be applied, and there are always going to be actions you'd like to be able to do but can't because it wasn't implemented. At most you can hope for a good level of grittiness, plausibility, and attention to detail.

 

Was it really necessary to state this? It's a given that the game isn't going to live up to all of our expectations, but this is a forum, and until something new is realized their isn't much else to discuss.

Umm... likewise?

[rjshae]

True, but still there's probably somethings that could be put into to increase realism without being resource and labour intensive. Threads like this might just reveal a couple that aren't immediately obvious - but perhaps my fully fledged civil service is a bit far fetched.

Okay. Well something the developers could do that provides realism and is relatively cost-effective to implement is a plague. Have something the party does lead (indirectly) to a plague sweeping through the villages and towns, leading to death, misery, distrust, and fear. Villages will close their gates to outsiders, people will stop talking to each other, and the party will witness acts of individual heroism, selfishness, and depredation.

[SophosTheWise]

Unfortunately this game is just a simulation with a limited budget. There's no way they can approach the level of realism that will leave you believing such a place exists. Corners will be cut, some level of simplification will be applied, and there are always going to be actions you'd like to be able to do but can't because it wasn't implemented. At most you can hope for a good level of grittiness, plausibility, and attention to detail.

 

Well thank you for that information, Captain Obvious.

[NerdBoner]

i don't care much for so called "realism" in my fantasy; that goes for armor, buildings, wealth and the like...

 

people saying they want things to resemble middle ages europe don't seem to be able to understand that if magic, gods, psychics and 4 other alien races had lived side by side with humanity during that time we'd have a completely different notion of what is "realistic".

 

all i want out of realism is for the npc's to behave according to their customs and common sensibilities.

[Osvir]

I recall Avellone saying something in an interview along the lines of "The Character is the most important tool that the Player uses to interact with the world" which is "duhr"-ly true.

 

If the Character is believable in place of the world, whatever the gameplay is, and gets feedback from the world I'm good. The Character is our "translator". With this in mind it is equally important that the feedback or "communicating" we do with the world is just as intellectual and believable as the input we give. Input/Output.

[SophosTheWise]

doublepost

Edited November 12, 2012 by SophosTheWise

[SophosTheWise]

i don't care much for so called "realism" in my fantasy; that goes for armor, buildings, wealth and the like...

 

people saying they want things to resemble middle ages europe don't seem to be able to understand that if magic, gods, psychics and 4 other alien races had lived side by side with humanity during that time we'd have a completely different notion of what is "realistic".

 

all i want out of realism is for the npc's to behave according to their customs and common sensibilities.

 

Go to the realism thread, learn what verisimilitude means and understand the point of the realism-supporters. It is not necessary to beat around the same argumentative bush for a billion years. I think we are, at this situation, well past the "IT'S FANTASY NOT REALITY THEREFORE ANYTHING GOES!!111"-argument.

 

Secondly I'd recommend reading into constructivist and structuralist philosophy. Really interesting and almost unmissable if you want to argue about what "reality" actually is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I recall Avellone saying something in an interview along the lines of "The Character is the most important tool that the Player uses to interact with the world" which is "duhr"-ly true.

 

If the Character is believable in place of the world, whatever the gameplay is, and gets feedback from the world I'm good. .

 

Still, a world with a lack of logical holes suck. I've mentioned this before, but starting area in Two Worlds 2. A desert/savannah-type crossover with LOTS of flora AND fauna. Still, people 10 meters away are suffering a famine. What the hell?

Edited November 12, 2012 by SophosTheWise

[Dream]

Here's what bugs me: people using fancy words to try and sound smart.

 

On topic, don't sacrifice any gameplay or fun for the sake of realism.

[SophosTheWise]

i don't care much for so called "realism" in my fantasy; that goes for armor, buildings, wealth and the like...

 

people saying they want things to resemble middle ages europe don't seem to be able to understand that if magic, gods, psychics and 4 other alien races had lived side by side with humanity during that time we'd have a completely different notion of what is "realistic".

 

all i want out of realism is for the npc's to behave according to their customs and common sensibilities.

 

Go to the realism thread, learn what verisimilitude means and understand the point of the realism-supporters. It is not necessary to beat around the same argumentative bush for a billion years. I think we are, at this situation, well past the "IT'S FANTASY NOT REALITY THEREFORE ANYTHING GOES!!111"-argument.

 

Secondly I'd recommend reading into constructivist and structuralist philosophy. Really interesting and almost unmissable if you want to argue about what "reality" actually is.

Here's what bugs me: people using fancy words to try and sound smart.

 

On topic, don't sacrifice any gameplay or fun for the sake of realism.

Here's what bugs me: people who don't seem to get, that there are different ways of approaching a topic and that certain "fancy words" have a right to exist.

[Dream]

Here's what bugs me: people who don't seem to get, that there are different ways of approaching a topic and that certain "fancy words" have a right to exist.

 

No one used that word until Sawyer said it, and now people are throwing it around like they actually speak that way.

 

Go to the realism thread, learn what verisimilitude means and understand the point of the realism-supporters.

 

Also they are literally the same word.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Dream

[Hornet85]

Unfortunately this game is just a simulation with a limited budget. There's no way they can approach the level of realism that will leave you believing such a place exists. Corners will be cut, some level of simplification will be applied, and there are always going to be actions you'd like to be able to do but can't because it wasn't implemented. At most you can hope for a good level of grittiness, plausibility, and attention to detail.

Exactly

A video game still has to focus on being a video game at the end of the day.

 

 

No one used that word until Sawyer said it, and now people are throwing it around like they actually speak that way.

QFFT

Edited November 12, 2012 by Hornet85

[AGX-17]

Not really. I want it to have realism in respect to immersion, but It's simply not going to be truly realistic. None of this "there's no such thing as leather armor so there should be none!" stuff like one guy said in another thread.

Edited November 12, 2012 by AGX-17

[SophosTheWise]

Here's what bugs me: people who don't seem to get, that there are different ways of approaching a topic and that certain "fancy words" have a right to exist.

 

No one used that word until Sawyer said it, and now people are throwing it around like they actually speak that way.

 

Go to the realism thread, learn what verisimilitude means and understand the point of the realism-supporters.

 

Also they are literally the same word.

 

I don't know what Sawyer said about that word, nor do I care about who uses which words as long as they're used correctly. Also, why is it bad to learn new words? And why should newly learnt words not be used?

 

And no, they are not, albeit very similar.

[Osvir]

Another thought on realism, but I put it in the Tool-Kit thread I guess it could fit here too:

The key issue for modders will be how much of the game is hardcoded, and impossible to modify.

 

Consider for example something simple like moving around. I am going to assume there will be something like a walkmesh. We may be able to modify that, add new exits on the map and so on. What we would not be able to modify are things like you only being able to walk on the walkmesh - I do not think it would be feasible to add the ability to fly around, for example.

 

Consider also something like companions. I think it should be possible to add new companions - after all, they are just like any other NPCs - just have a much larger dialogue and more complicated scripts. What you might not be able to modify, however, are things like the maximum # of companions you can have - that might be hardcoded into the game (if only to make sure the GUI handles them properly.

 

Do you think it could be possible to mod attack animations to such detail that basically when you are facing an Ogre you can modify how your character will move against that specific enemy? Or perhaps a fight against a Gibberling where it latches on to your shield and gnaws at you. In Baldur's Gate that would equal you taking 1 damage. What I am saying is that having more "realistic" animations and easy use to access it, so that that fight with the Gibberling (specifically) visually looks like a power struggle, instead of "Chop" back and forth.

 

Whether such animations is part of the core game or not, is it possible to build an engine in such a way? I understand that there is 100's of different situations to take into consideration (1 or 2 full animations where your character dodges with consideration to the enemy attack speed and striking etc. etc). That when you hit the Ogre with a two-handed hammer to the face it gets jabbed and staggers backwards or might even hit dirt if critical hit.

 

EDIT: Not necessarily something that has to be in the game for me to enjoy it but just thoughts about visual eye-candy and immersion I suppose.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Osvir

[Dream]

 

 

And no, they are not, albeit very similar.

 

For real, bro? This is what I'm talking about, people don't even understand they aren't sounding smart when they use it.

 

Verisimilitude - Something verisimilar/the quality or state or being verisimilar

 

Verisimilar - depicting realism (as in art or literature)

 

The same word.

[ogrezilla]

or buildings that are far larger than any medieval couterparts (it's teh magic I know)

 

I'm just quoting this part because I agree with the rest. But I think magic is a perfectly valid reason for this world to be considerably different than a realistic medieval europe would be.

[rjshae]

Unfortunately this game is just a simulation with a limited budget. There's no way they can approach the level of realism that will leave you believing such a place exists. Corners will be cut, some level of simplification will be applied, and there are always going to be actions you'd like to be able to do but can't because it wasn't implemented. At most you can hope for a good level of grittiness, plausibility, and attention to detail.

 

Well thank you for that information, Captain Obvious.

You're quite welcome. Now do you actually have anything constructive to say on the topic? Thus far it appears not.

[SophosTheWise]

And no, they are not, albeit very similar.

 

For real, bro? This is what I'm talking about, people don't even understand they aren't sounding smart when they use it.

 

Verisimilitude - Something verisimilar/the quality or state or being verisimilar

 

Verisimilar - depicting realism (as in art or literature)

 

The same word.

 

No, it's not the same as realism. The question is: what constitues reality (in the sense of the concept of radical realism), and reality is also constituted by - for example - physics. For something to be verisimilar, it simply has to follow an inherent logic. Or to make it a bit easier to apply: if you have two (false!) concepts of reality, you choose the one that is the nearest to the actual reality. If we assume that "our" reality in which we live is the "objective reality" then we'll get beaten by constructivists and we have to chose between two fictive concepts, the one being closest to the predefined reality makes the most sense.

To apply it to the aforementioned Two Worlds 2-blooming-flora-and-fauna-famine-problem: of course you can say that maybe there is a spell on every starving citizen to prevent him eating everything around him or some other absurd thing. The problem with fiction is, that you have endless possibilities to just invent ANY solution for ANY problem, but it gets very, very, VERY difficult not to mess up the whole logic of the gameworld, because creating more and more "solutions" also creates more and more problems based on a solution and so on and so forth. To not have this argument about words that get thrown around by game designers, we could simply agree that we mean *something* in the verge of plausibility or credibility. Which is still not the same.

 

I may be wrong, that's just the way I learned that stuff in my journalistics class, but that whole reality-concept-thingy was quite brief.