Of Magic and Muskets...

[jezz555]

...probably the road to hell. I would rather if tech was anathema to arcane magic like it was in Arcanum, were guns don't need to be magical because...well there guns. This way you could have guns that were very powerful and balance them with swords/medieval weapons by saying they couldn't be enchanted. Furthermore I'm not really a fan of ridiculous-amount-of-barrels-type guns but to each his own I suppose.

 

I'd really rather there not be firearms in the game, just doesn't go well with medieval games, but oh well.. =)

Delterius made a fair (if pendantic) point. the game is meant to be like late renaissance era or something, at a time when they would have had guns. You might not like them, but they will most likely be presented as period accurate given the technological progression evident in the world. I don;t think they are just going to toss a bunch of guns into the dark ages, because, yeah, that wouldn't go well.

Edited November 1, 2012 by jezz555

[Attero]

i dont like tech & magic mixes and was quite sad when they announced it, i'm sure it prevented quite a few ppl from backing. My guess its better to go with the idea they have them forcefully remove less-liked parts that can hurt story in process. We will see how it will be, it can be a hit or miss.

[LadyCrimson]

Sorry for the image size but I liked this soooo much I had to post it.

Those are sweet. I'd love to dual-wield those.

[rjshae]

i dont like tech & magic mixes and was quite sad when they announced it, i'm sure it prevented quite a few ppl from backing. My guess its better to go with the idea they have them forcefully remove less-liked parts that can hurt story in process. We will see how it will be, it can be a hit or miss.

The last segment of your first sentence seems like, well... complete rubbish.

 

Regardless of the choices made, narrowing the focus of a topic automatically reduces the range of interest. But the project seems to have survived the decision and we can only speculate about how much each element weighed into the final support.

Edited November 1, 2012 by rjshae

[Attero]

i dont like tech & magic mixes and was quite sad when they announced it, i'm sure it prevented quite a few ppl from backing. My guess its better to go with the idea they have them forcefully remove less-liked parts that can hurt story in process. We will see how it will be, it can be a hit or miss.

The last segment of your first sentence seems like, well... complete rubbish.

 

Regardless of the choices made, narrowing the focus of a topic automatically reduces the range of interest. But the project seems to have survived the decision and we can only speculate about how much each element weighed into the final support.

If you would ask around majority will answer that gunpowder weapons are not fantasy thing. If you say you make fantasy it narrows interest , then if you announce it will feature something that is not considered fantasy you basicly shoot yourself in the foot. Obviously its guesswork how big impact it had, but it had some. I say if they would announce they make pure D&D 3.5 (?) support would be bigger but thats just my opinion . What we can be sure is that no matter what would they say they wouldnt get support equal to publisher founding. To make things clear i dont think they needed to hide or give up on it to get better results, i think the ammount is fine or even more then they wanted XD (bigger = harder to develop)

[PsychoBlonde]

I loved how Arcanum kept magic and tech completely and absolutely separate.

 

Except that you could do pretty much the same things with both of them. The big exception, of course, being Teleport. Hence why I usually played a mage type, cause doodling across the map in slow motion made me nauseous after a while.

 

The major problem with having both magic and technology is that in games magic is basically another type of technology. So if they can stack while magic generally can't stack with itself, now you've got one particular area with twice the bonus. Granted, if magic generally does stack with itself, there's no mechanical problem, and it all becomes an aesthetic choice.

 

 

That being said, I'd like it if actually magical firearms are pretty rare or even nonexistent. From the lore they've mentioned technology and magic have very different levels of advancement in different areas, so it may be much like Thedas where the cultures with firearms are also the cultures with the least magical development.

 

It doesn't really make sense that you'd see a lot of magic and gunpowder weapons from the same source. Early gunpowder weapons are hideously unreliable. Magic is generally a lot more reliable. So if you can enchant a wand to throw fireballs why in the world would you waste time and effort farting around with a bunch of chemicals that may blow up in your face. The main difference may be one of scalability--it's a lot easier to make TONS of gunpowder than it is to produce TONS of magic. In which case you'd undoubtedly see explosives being used for large-scale tasks like blowing up bridges or boulders.

Edited November 1, 2012 by PsychoBlonde

[Osvir]

My point starts at around 1:00 xD Swedish awesome film by the way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdYETf1SP2c&feature=related

 

More

.

 

Guns guns guns.. hmm... I believe it'll be fine. Don't really have any input.

 

This is an arm cannon (Fantasy/Medieval Megaman? ^^):

 

Slightly unrelated but god damn cool (Vampire Hunter D <3):

Edited November 1, 2012 by Osvir

[Gfted1]

Huh, Ive never seen an "arm cannon" before. How did it work? Did you have to have a stump to slide it over?

[PsychoBlonde]

From all the guns I've seen from the 14th century onward, the one thing I know that has to be different from contemporary guns is the exquisite detail put into each gun. I would assume that these things were not mass-produced; guns were hard-crafted and decorated with great care.

 

Mass production of interchangeable gun parts was invented by Colt, I believe (and even then, he made claims about it before he had the process working, the history is pretty amusing). Prior to that, guns were like anything else--each one was custom made by a single craftsman, and if it broke, you'd need another craftsman to fix it. Colt's system of being able to swap out one part for another on the spot is part of what made his product so successful.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

This makes me think: Magic severely stagnates technical innovation. Why create a bullet cartridge, if you can just use magic to silence the gun or stop the smoke? Heck, why even create guns in the first place? You've got fireball!

 

Although this does assume that magic is accessible and reliable. If only certain strong-souled people can do magic (particularly if they're snooty about sharing), the rest of the population is going to want a replacement that doesn't involve coping with the moods of some primadonna spellcasting twit. Magic may even DRIVE technological innovation if the 99% are constantly trying to solve the eternal "nothing can hurt a mage but another mage" problem.

[Osvir]

Huh, Ive never seen an "arm cannon" before. How did it work? Did you have to have a stump to slide it over?

 

Yes. It's from a manga/anime called Berserk (so if you misinterpreted it as realism I didn't properly explain, sorry), it is completely fictive.

 

Unrelated to the topic but this is Berserk.

Berserk (It is a little bit bloody if you are frail of such)

[Hormalakh]

@PsychoBlonde I always find your thoughts very intriguing! Keep the comments coming: they're always welcome!

 

In either case, the devs need to make sure that they have a strong explanation for things like this, regardless of whether or not we learn about them in-game.

[Brannart]

In either case, the devs need to make sure that they have a strong explanation for things like this, regardless of whether or not we learn about them in-game.

 

I thought they sort of did already didn't they? I thought firearms were mainly useful in being one of the few non-magical ways to penetrate a mage's defenses. Or did I imagine that?

[Hormalakh]

I thought they sort of did already didn't they? I thought firearms were mainly useful in being one of the few non-magical ways to penetrate a mage's defenses. Or did I imagine that?

 

No, you're right: they can penetrate a mage's arcane veil. What we're talking about is whether mages used guns as well (or enchanted them) and what the implications are for that scenario. If guns are known as "mage-killers" then I'd doubt there be many mages who would be willing to enchant weapons that mean their own destruction.

[Tsuga C]

Or did I imagine that?

 

No, that's what they wrote/said. I don't imagine that wheel locks will be quick to re-load or very precise instruments of battle, but up close and personal they'll be a very effective hammer against damage-resistant targets like shielded mages.

[Gfted1]

Yes. It's from a manga/anime called Berserk (so if you misinterpreted it as realism I didn't properly explain, sorry), it is completely fictive.

 

 

 

I did totally think the first two pictures were real. And a user would slide the fake arm over a stump like how a peg leg is worn.

[Tauron]

If you can enchant a sword, armor, why not a bullet or the gun barrel.

[Monte Carlo]

This idea that mages wouldn't enchant firearms because they might harm other mages is fallacious to say the least.

 

If the history of weapons development teaches us anything, it is that it is incredibly neutral. Mankind designs the most optimal and deadly weapons it can across all spectrums in order to ensure battlefield dominance. It's only in the past fifty years that we have started to develop 'ethical' weapons (i.e. precision munitions specifically designed to mitigate against collateral damage and advanced ISTAR assets that allow for better targeting. The changing and increasingly asymmetrical nature of warfare also plays a big part in this).

 

The only, amusing medieval example of ethics getting in the way of weapons development was the Catholic Church issuing a decree against crossbows (on the hardly egalitarian grounds that it allowed a peasant to slay a king).

 

So a military mage would definitely enchant a firearm. Why? To allow his bodyguards, or a marksman, to kill an enemy mage so he didn't have to. The obvious corollary would be enhanced magical research to increase the power of the arcane veil (although a 'summon raincloud' spell would not doubt hamper a marksman with a 14th Century firearm!).

[Hormalakh]

If I were a mage and guns were known as "mage-killers" I would not enchant them. Not only that, I'd fry every last bugger who came to me asking for an enchantment on their mage-killer.

[Monte Carlo]

Yes, you are obviously not a mage at all interested in weapons development. I, OTOH, would enchant several and use them against my pesky competitors.

[Hormalakh]

The only guns I need are these *points to his arms*. In any case, good luck working with rogues and brigands who'll end up one day using your enchanted equipment against you and get away without having to pay.

 

The greatest weapons can be found in tomes, not in tinkering with these toys you call technological innovations.

[Osvir]

Yes. It's from a manga/anime called Berserk (so if you misinterpreted it as realism I didn't properly explain, sorry), it is completely fictive.

 

 

 

I did totally think the first two pictures were real. And a user would slide the fake arm over a stump like how a peg leg is worn.

 

And that's how he does it (main character in Berserk). Not going to spoil anything but I think Berserk is probably the best story I've read ever. Find the manga or anime Gfted1 I think that many here would enjoy it, it is one of the oldest popular manga's (been around for 20 some years).

Edited November 2, 2012 by Osvir

[TheTeaMustFlow]

The `mages wouldn't enchant anti-mage weapons` issue depends on whether mages are themselves a power block. There hasn't been any suggestion as far as I can see of that being the case. If it's the Arcane Alliance fighting the Technological Templars, then mages aren't going to want to see magic guns. But if it's the Kingdom of Randomia up against the Generican Empire, with both sides using magic, then the Randomian wizards are going to want to get an edge against the Generican arcanists - and what better way than giving their fellow Randomian troops enchanted guns?

[Osvir]

The `mages wouldn't enchant anti-mage weapons` issue depends on whether mages are themselves a power block. There hasn't been any suggestion as far as I can see of that being the case. If it's the Arcane Alliance fighting the Technological Templars, then mages aren't going to want to see magic guns. But if it's the Kingdom of Randomia up against the Generican Empire, with both sides using magic, then the Randomian wizards are going to want to get an edge against the Generican arcanists - and what better way than giving their fellow Randomian troops enchanted guns?

 

"The world of P:E runs deep in mistrust, rumors of the Technak Templars stirring up paranoia in the Arcane Alliance's corner of the world. And the Technak deny all involvement in such activities (fearing the wrath of the Arcane Wisdom) though reports claim otherwise. A conspiracy might be at place..." *dun dun dun*

[nubins]

The notion that mages wouldnt enchant guns because they might be used to kill them is somewhat silly. That's like saying blacksmish wouldnt make swords in case someone wanted to stab them with one.

 

As soon as one mage did it, that would be it, an arms race because unless they all get involved they would be left behind. It's very unlikely that all the mages in the world would avoid doing it.

 

I'm really pleased there are going to be firearms in the game. Early firearms add as much drama as magic - smoke, loud noises.. much more interesting than bows, in my opinion. I dont see there being balance issues - early pistols could not penetrate heavy armour, unless they were very lucky (they tested it on deadliest warrior, the only firearm they could get to penetrate a steel breast plate was a blunderbuss). So light armour is vulenrable.. but thats no different from crossbows and longbows and they fire faster.

 

I suspect, if they are going for realism, they might go as primed one shot "Items" with substantial cooldowns and not as the main weapon of a character (pull your pistol and fire and point blank range instead of swinging your sword etc.).