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I'm sure this is an old and dead topic, but I couldn't find it with a forum search so here goes.

 

How can currency be given a real value to players in PE?

In every RPG I remember, I would systematicaly collect and mangage loot to optimize the money I could get selling it. But for the life of me I can't understand why, because in every game money has been a completely useless resource, meant for hoarding and nothing else. Sure, I could buy weapons and armor from merchants - weapons and armor little or no better than what I find dungeon-delving. Heck, maybe I could buy property - a single-payment investment that meant nothing considering my income. And then there was there were the bribes for info and selfless acts of sacrificing coin to help the needy - what sacrifice? "No trouble, maam. I'll just sell an enchanted necklace or something and make it back. There's likely one in that barrel behind you anyway, so if you'll excuse me..."

 

You all get the point, and I'm probably preaching to the choir here on this one. Money in RPGs have, so far as I know, always been completely useless. So how can we change this? First I suppose is to make money less prolific, and not just make items/services more expensive; I doubt many would argue much that this wouldn't be a necessary step. Player income needs to be considerably less abundant. But how can money then be given a real value, made to be worth the effort of collecting? Are critical items like health kits and portal scrolls (or whatever PE will use) to be given exclusively to merchants? Will investments into things such as strongholds require more than a single-cost payment? How else can we make the decisions of spending or sacrificing coin carry more weight than the nil it has in past titles? Would it be better to remove bribes or sacrifices made in coin from PE entirely?

 

What are your thoughts on this matter, and what might you suggest be implemented if you agree that this is an issue that should be addressed?

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Money sinks like games of chance with a .02 chance of an awesome item. *irritated mumbles about Borderlands 2 slot machines....*

Bribery options for information you need for quests or whatever are always good. Expensive bribes, not just 20gp.

Having items in mid-to-late stage stores that are occasionally very good, but also very expensive. The sort where you'd save up almost the entire game to be able to get them. I guess they'd have to be static in the store to have a chance of buying it, tho...not sure how that would work, if it would at all.

Costs a lot of money to join some factions?

 

...mm...that's all I have. I is sleepy. :)

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“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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You need to keep the money supply from inflating too quickly. Make low level items useful at all levels, and keep the ways a player can accumulate currency limited.

 

What tends to happen is that, for example, you have a shop keeper who sells, say, 3 kinds of healing potions: small, medium and large. At the beginning of the game, the small potion is useful and affordable, but the medium potion is overpowered considering the enemies you're facing. So you have to make the medium expensive enough that a starting character can't afford it. Then, at the mid point of the game, you have to make sure the player can earn enough money to make the medium potion affordable, and then you have to make the large potion even more expensive to keep the midway player from easily acquiring it. By the end of the game, the player is making vast amounts of money because they need to afford the large potion.

 

With this particular example in mind, I think a crafting system can be used to devise a more elegant solution. For instance, now the shop keeper only sells one size of health potion. For the player to make better potions, you might require certain ingredients for an alchemy recipe. Then you can limit what ingredients can be gotten by limiting them to starting areas or end game areas. Or potions enhanced with alchemy improve based on the alchemy skill, which makes starting characters potions always weaker than higher level characters. Maybe you have to purchase the recipe, and higher level recipes are more expensive (this still inflates the currency somewhat, but not as badly since you only have to buy it once).

 

One solution I don't really like is giving shop keepers limited amounts of money, like Elder Scrolls Oblivion or Skyrim. While more realistic, it was more of a hindrance and didn't really make the game any better, IMO.

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Having items in mid-to-late stage stores that are occasionally very good, but also very expensive. The sort where you'd save up almost the entire game to be able to get them. I guess they'd have to be static in the store to have a chance of buying it

 

Baldur's Gate did this. For example the weird artefacts and robes of the Archmagi in High Hedge.

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Brown Bear did 18 damage to Squirrel
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Several other options that could be used:

 

1. Supply and demand economy - if you continuously sell the same items in a region then the price gradually drops to nothing (1 GP or so) so that you are forced to ignore certain types of loot after a while; this reduces the amount of money you can get without varying your selling tactics

 

2. Money affects reputation after you get your stronghold - you could be allowed to store your excess funds in a vault in your stronghold. As the amount in storage reaches certain thresholds it could give you access to higher level guards for your keep, or keep expansions, or alliances with other kings ... things along those lines

 

3. Equipment degradation - although I am not fond of this approach, using funds to keep your equipment in optimal shape does denote a certain level of realism in a game (and it can become a money sink for more expensive equipment); if the equipment performance degrades as it becomes in more of a state of disrepair then that encourages you to make this investment

 

4. Equipment upgrades - there could be several levels of a given item and you could upgrade to these higher levels with additional funds

 

That's some of my thinking on this

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I still had over 100K gold In BG1 at the end of the game after buying all the good items. Then again I often abuse the selling mechanism and make sure I sell stuff at the same time so I get the premium rate.

 

BG2 ... lol.

Edited by Sensuki
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  • Good equipment that can be bought or commisioned, rather than looted.
  • Looted items are in bad shape (You heavily dented that plate mail to kill the guy within, don't expect to just peel him out of it and wear or sell it in mint condition)
  • No insane value increases for magical weapons when they can be looted in bulk. When an unenchanted sword is worth 20 bucks, one with an +1 enchantment may be worth 30 or 50, but not 1000
  • Merchants don't buy everything (A smith may buy an extraordinary blade but has no use for one that is below his own craftsmanship)
  • Taxes (You may be able to persuade or intimidate a taxman to leave you alone, but they will be there at the entrance of cities and along well-guarded roads.)

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I'm kind of against having the best, most powerful items for sale in shops though..it takes away all the legendariness of an item if you bought it at wal mart, shops should have decent mid range stuff that was crafted, and possibly enchanted, by the shopkeeper or a local craftsman/enchanter.. having stuff made to order for yourself would be good

 

having less gold in the first place would be a good start...no barrels and boxes with gold in, no one who gives you a 1000 gold reward for finding a lost trinket

 

alternatively, and controversially, gold could have weight (it is after all one of the heavier elements, funny how games often make the heaviest stuff you would be carrying weightless..I'm thinking ammo in fallout 3, gold in most games)

 

also consumables like ammo/potions could be a money sink (although I'd like ways to get them without going back to town every 5 minutes)

fast travel could cost money (passage on boats etc)

 

workers and servants/guards in your stronghold could need a wage...it could cost money to upkeep, would be good if it fell into disrepair and workers deserted if you couldn't afford the upkeep...the once proud stronghold falls to a shadow of its former glory

Edited by motorizer
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Some good ideas so far, particularly the taxman one. Like a shadow that follows you wherever you travel - with every one you kill, and you will kill one, he's replaced with at taxman bigger and badder. It'd be like having a growing bounty on your head, not because of your actions, or what enemies or allies you decide to make, but because the system won't let you get away without paying your dues, hero or no.

 

I think also it's common consensus here that enchanted items are worth way too much. They either should be rare or have a significant price cut (for selling at least, and I'm rather partial to magic items being rarer). Stronghold wealth and picking up damaged equipment from fallen foes also sound promising.

A supply and demand economy would be neat too, though that might be a real project and might just annoy some people.

 

Other thoughts:

Harder difficulties have reduced inventory cappacities (who really carries around several suits of armor and a plethora of weapons in their bag?)

 

Sponteneous halfbaked idea here, but what if magic items could be stripped of their "soul" (presuming this is how magic items will work in PE) and collected either as crafting material or some other boon? I don't know yet how this would work so as to incentivize consuming rare equipment rather than selling it, but maybe one of you has an idea (or will be sure to tell me of how foolish this idea is, no hard feelings I promise)? Maybe enchanted items need to be recharged regularly? (Ouch! Alright, who's throwing the stones?)

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For the really expensive stuff they could do away with most of the currency and just use barter, possibly combined with auctioning. The barter could be represented by a rare and precious type of object greatly desired by the most powerful individuals; such as a "Spirit Stone". If you want that +5 long sword, it'll cost you a basic sum just to get you in the trade, plus 20 Spirit Stones. These stones can be made too precious (and dangerous) for trade with normal merchants, so the natural tendency is to horde them (or go to a limited number of places to sell them for a heavy mark-down). If the stones can be made useful for other activities, like item crafting, the player will need to decide whether to use them up or horde them. Their very usefulness for powerful individuals is also what makes them hazardous to own.

 

Using Spirit Stones as trade items for expensive gear allows the game's other currency requirements to be lowered.

Edited by rjshae

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Some good ideas so far, particularly the taxman one. Like a shadow that follows you wherever you travel - with every one you kill, and you will kill one, he's replaced with at taxman bigger and badder. It'd be like having a growing bounty on your head, not because of your actions, or what enemies or allies you decide to make, but because the system won't let you get away without paying your dues, hero or no.

 

I think also it's common consensus here that enchanted items are worth way too much. They either should be rare or have a significant price cut (for selling at least, and I'm rather partial to magic items being rarer). Stronghold wealth and picking up damaged equipment from fallen foes also sound promising.

A supply and demand economy would be neat too, though that might be a real project and might just annoy some people.

 

Other thoughts:

Harder difficulties have reduced inventory cappacities (who really carries around several suits of armor and a plethora of weapons in their bag?)

 

Sponteneous halfbaked idea here, but what if magic items could be stripped of their "soul" (presuming this is how magic items will work in PE) and collected either as crafting material or some other boon? I don't know yet how this would work so as to incentivize consuming rare equipment rather than selling it, but maybe one of you has an idea (or will be sure to tell me of how foolish this idea is, no hard feelings I promise)? Maybe enchanted items need to be recharged regularly? (Ouch! Alright, who's throwing the stones?)

 

A lot of D&D derived systems from my knowledge use the price jumps in magic equipment almost directly from the loot tables. A +1 weapon means a master craftsman forged the equipment, then a proficient magic user enchanted it (or a high priest blessed it). Each enchantment puts the weapon into a higher value bracket, so at +2 sword should be within a relative bracket with a +1 flaming sword. Then you take the region/NPC attributes into consideration as modifiers (a +1 sword in a hub city might be worth say half, but in a frontier town will cost a good bit more). That said, the major reason for the system is because once you're past level 10 or so in most campaigns, you're swimming in gold, so a 20gp sword is worthless, you'll likely have plenty for a 7500gp +1 sword.

I'm not a proponent of this - I think the rarity of magic should be a big determinant in the price multiplier enchantments induce. I admit, in most obsidian games you do seem to gain a lot of money fairly quickly, but I think part of that issue in some of the D&D based games is that there are few time constraints. In most campaigns I've been part of, once you're level ten or so you're simply too busy to go around doing several high-reward quests, mostly because the big threat/villain is on the move.

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Money sink options:

 

- Gamblng mechanic

 

- Wages for hireable party members every "X" amount of hours played within the game

 

- Wages for people within your fortress, whether they be merchants, farmers, servants, guards, trainers, etc.

 

- Having some sort of system where you can hire mercenaries or guards from within your fortress or taverns to do certain acts depending on if you are good or evil, making these tacts endlessly rewarding for being repeated would be somewhat difficult though.

 

- Items having a durability and needing to be periodically repaired and maintained.

 

- Having lots of dialgoue options that require extra monetery incentive.

 

- Requiring a tribute at the end of every endless dungeon level to unlock the next level.

 

I'm sure there are a ton more as well, it's just a matter of what they think would fit and be worthwhile in terms of development time and cost.

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Money sinks are painful, but making sure you never even put that extra money faucet in the game is not. Strongly limiting the gear the players can sell is a great idea; not only does it gel with realism and with the way fantasy stories are portrayed (imagine Star Wars if Han and Luke were stockpiling blaster rifles on the Death Star so they could sell them after the battle) but it makes the money a lot easier to manage.

 

Need a weapon? Pick up the one on the guy you just killed. Need money? Complete a quest.

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Right, I think it's more important to limit income than to increase expensenses haphazardly. Or go with something along with what Rjshae suggested, though I'll admit, I'm not quite clever enough to fully comprehend his "spirit stones."

In any case, I already suggested that inventory be limited at increased difficulties. I think this is an all-around good and simple solution, as it addresses more than just the wealth issue.

 

We still need more reasons to want to cash in on our money though. Traditional merchants exist solely to offload loot. Weapons and armor they sell are never much better than what you find lying around. Is it enough to give merchants significantly better equipment to sell? I'm thinking we'll also need other sinks to put money into. Various maintance and upkeep costs could help, but too much won't "gel" with players well, they need more positive incentives to spend, whereas maintainance feels to much like a tax. It's better I think to reward players for spending than to relieve penalties for it.

 

What variations should these incentives take? Some have suggested stronghold upkeep (a little better than simply a maintainance cost, because you get clear rewards for spending more). Others have suggested paying for content (in game currency, not cash-shop) such as gambling or dungeon levels.

 

Hoarding gold is only so much fun when there are no good reasons to want to spend it. What would you sacrifice your hard earned gold to recieve? Remember, income isn't so infinite in this thread, so anything you buy leaves you with less to spend later on! Choose your investments wisely!

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Having items in mid-to-late stage stores that are occasionally very good, but also very expensive. The sort where you'd save up almost the entire game to be able to get them. I guess they'd have to be static in the store to have a chance of buying it

 

Baldur's Gate did this. For example the weird artefacts and robes of the Archmagi in High Hedge.

It's been a very long time since I've played much of BG. Details like that I tend to forget. :)

 

- Items having a durability and needing to be periodically repaired and maintained.

I wouldn't mind this type of option. But they'd have to be careful that degradation isn't paced too fast re:cost or potential length of adventuring far away from any town/merchant. I personally don't want to have to constantly go "back to town" because my armor is about to break after a few big battles. That'd be too Diablo-ish. Still, it is a bit more realistic to have some kind of wear and tear + repair on gear so I wouldn't mind having some level of it.

 

Crafting as a type of money sink, as others mentioned, sounds good to me too.

“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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I've seen a few games that have merchants sell equipment a bit better than what you could find - Storm of Zehir had this going for the first few levels. I'm kind of split on the idea of merchants building a relationship with you as you complete transactions, and at some point unlocking a "special stock" which contains relatively useful items for once. Truly though, it does need some time spent thinking about it - creating a new universe may offer a unique chance to change this pattern.

 

As to equipment degradation: I like how Vindictus did it, where characters could use blacksmith kits to fix equipment so long as they were in a camp (safe) area. Basically any cleared out section of a dungeon qualified. The effectiveness of these kits was tied to the character build, if I recall correctly. This kind of mechanic could work with a sort of engineer/smith companion's bonus, I think.

Edited by UncleBourbon
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It would be a relatively simple task to, for the earlier levels, have the best items all be in the shop. The middle levels would put you up against more elite foes, so they might start dropping gear along that level, but then it's time to start coveting the enchanted gear; you could spend all manner of money buying the right ingredients for enchantment, and perhaps hiring people to seek it out for you.

 

There's no reason for the best gear to be waiting for you in a chest. If it's so dang useful then someone's going to be carrying it, and getting to them doesn't have to be easy.

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It would be a relatively simple task to, for the earlier levels, have the best items all be in the shop. The middle levels would put you up against more elite foes, so they might start dropping gear along that level, but then it's time to start coveting the enchanted gear; you could spend all manner of money buying the right ingredients for enchantment, and perhaps hiring people to seek it out for you.

 

There's no reason for the best gear to be waiting for you in a chest. If it's so dang useful then someone's going to be carrying it, and getting to them doesn't have to be easy.

 

Hrm, I've seen this dealth with by the merchants - who have never seen such awesome gear! - being unable to fully repay you, so they either offer hardly any gold, or significant store credit in exchange. Maybe have a wandering, wealthy merchant every once in a while for straight up gold exchange.

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  • Good equipment that can be bought or commisioned, rather than looted.
  • Looted items are in bad shape (You heavily dented that plate mail to kill the guy within, don't expect to just peel him out of it and wear or sell it in mint condition)
  • No insane value increases for magical weapons when they can be looted in bulk. When an unenchanted sword is worth 20 bucks, one with an +1 enchantment may be worth 30 or 50, but not 1000
  • Merchants don't buy everything (A smith may buy an extraordinary blade but has no use for one that is below his own craftsmanship)
  • Taxes (You may be able to persuade or intimidate a taxman to leave you alone, but they will be there at the entrance of cities and along well-guarded roads.)

 

as much as i hate this, i think there should really be repair state for weapons and armour (at least)

for that - the repair skill would be nice as one of the crafting abilities

performed only with given tools, that need to be carried around additionally

(can't stop reffering to Jagged Alliance 2)

or maybe like a doctor's kit in Fallout

some repairs can be done with knife and needle, and some serious fractures need serious equipment

etc

 

basically agreed with the rest of the quote, too

Edited by kabaliero
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I think that they need to give you something to spend money on beyond gear first and foremost. Something akin to the skill books in DA:O which were pricey and always worth purchasing. If you had excess gold sitting around there was zero reason to not buy those books at 27 gold each or whatever they were. So I think books of skill or items with permanent stat increases are always a good money sink as they'll always be useful regardless of what gear your character is using.

 

Beyond that you could make bribes a common option for getting through interactions with NPCs. This would allow for a non-violent play through while not being a high speech/charisma character. Also I simply like the flavor of a successful rogue buying his way through everything but maybe that's just me.

 

Some have mentioned gambling which isn't a bad choice however I think that if they wanted to do that they should do it in the form of an arena battle against random tiers of monsters for maybe 8-9 tiers. Disable saves once the fighting begins and until it stops to keep it challenging. You need to beat say 3-4 battles to break even and beyond that is where you could start getting more than you put it. I figure it would prevent them from needing to code anything completely new into the game as combat system and monsters are already in game.

 

There is always fable approach where you can buy out properties and have tons of cosmetic options to buy. I don't really enjoy this but it did work out ok in Fable 3 where you had to temper your purchases against wanting to have a high amount of gold at the end of the game, provided you wanted to go the 'good' path.

 

Finally you can simply put a set amount of items/gold in the game and therefore make your choices of what to buy more important that way. That being said I hate this method and hope they don't go that route. If there is something expensive I'd like to buy I think I should be able to go out and farm for it.

Edited by Pshaw

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My personal disappointment on money in most games is that you always need to carry such a lot. Even in cRPG's such as Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale, you sometimes end up walking around with tens of thousands of gold coins. Sure, you can use it for gear, which also sometimes costs tens of thousands of gold, but why such a lot? How big a pouch do you need for such an amount and how much would that even weigh? I can't imagine myself carrying every euro I have (in the bank and on the mortgage and such) in coins of € 1,- each.

 

To add to this problem, other people in the world already think 1 golden piece is a small fortune. You give beggars or children one piece of gold and they act like they can eat for a whole week (maybe they can, since it's gold). Also, people in the city may cheer on a few golden pieces, while a stupid kobold already has tens? That doesn't quite add up. That way, it can look like a sword that costs 20.000 gold to seem equal to a huge mansion.

 

I believe the system Blizzard had implemented in WoW was pretty good. Three types of coins: copper, silver and gold. 100 copper equals 1 silver. 100 silver equals 1 gold (or 10 to 1). Then, creatures you kill will drop money according to their level or status (if they drop anything, at all), along with any items they may carry. These items shouldn't be worth that much, as long as they are not magical. Also, magical items don't need to cost 1000+ gold. If 1 gold is already a small fortune to a commoner, why not make it worth 50g?

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My personal disappointment on money in most games is that you always need to carry such a lot. Even in cRPG's such as Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale, you sometimes end up walking around with tens of thousands of gold coins. Sure, you can use it for gear, which also sometimes costs tens of thousands of gold, but why such a lot? How big a pouch do you need for such an amount and how much would that even weigh? I can't imagine myself carrying every euro I have (in the bank and on the mortgage and such) in coins of € 1,- each.

 

To add to this problem, other people in the world already think 1 golden piece is a small fortune. You give beggars or children one piece of gold and they act like they can eat for a whole week (maybe they can, since it's gold). Also, people in the city may cheer on a few golden pieces, while a stupid kobold already has tens? That doesn't quite add up. That way, it can look like a sword that costs 20.000 gold to seem equal to a huge mansion.

 

I believe the system Blizzard had implemented in WoW was pretty good. Three types of coins: copper, silver and gold. 100 copper equals 1 silver. 100 silver equals 1 gold (or 10 to 1). Then, creatures you kill will drop money according to their level or status (if they drop anything, at all), along with any items they may carry. These items shouldn't be worth that much, as long as they are not magical. Also, magical items don't need to cost 1000+ gold. If 1 gold is already a small fortune to a commoner, why not make it worth 50g?

 

That is how it is designed to work in D&D - or at least in previous incarnations. 1 gold coin is about a year's wages for a peasent. Heck, in my last kingmaker campaign the entire player-nation had a treasury of about 15000 gold coins. In tabletop, the idea is the adventurers are heroes and they become much more powerful than any peasent or serf. As such, they end up seeking out rare, powerful and highly valuable pieces of equipment and such. Besides, one of the main draws to adventure and risk so much is the incredible payment and the chance for social escalation. A peasent is generally depicted like serfs of old - living on rented land, working some lord's crops. They didn't really make much money. I think the issue is balancing this in-game, and trying not to confuse people with a bunch of different currencies. I imagine they could work it out better now, and that in a different setting gold might not be the super-valuable resource it is in Faerun and other D&D settings, or in today's world.

Edited by UncleBourbon
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I like low-end settings more than high-end ones, so I'd like the money to be limited and thus more valuable. Then you'd actually have to choose between two items when you're visiting a local merchant - deciding whether to buy a Shadowed Black Grimoire for your wizard or a Heartseeker +3 bow for your ranger should make things more interesting.

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That is how it is designed to work in D&D - or at least in previous incarnations. 1 gold coin is about a year's wages for a peasent. Heck, in my last kingmaker campaign the entire player-nation had a treasury of about 15000 gold coins. In tabletop, the idea is the adventurers are heroes and they become much more powerful than any peasent or serf. As such, they end up seeking out rare, powerful and highly valuable pieces of equipment and such. Besides, one of the main draws to adventure and risk so much is the incredible payment and the chance for social escalation. A peasent is generally depicted like serfs of old - living on rented land, working some lord's crops. They didn't really make much money. I think the issue is balancing this in-game, and trying not to confuse people with a bunch of different currencies. I imagine they could work it out better now, and that in a different setting gold might not be the super-valuable resource it is in Faerun and other D&D settings, or in today's world.

I understand heroes should be much more rich than peasants, however, carrying 20.000 golden coins is simply too much. Another problem with D&D games, was the fact that shelter and booze also costed several golden coins (up to over 10). Whilst, as you said yourself, a commoner's yearly earning is maybe one golden piece. It's unbelievable inbalanced.

 

Besides, if what you say is true, and one golden coin is a peasants' yearly earning, then 50gp would be sufficient for an enchanted dagger, no? Of course, items would be able to range into the hundreds of golden coins, and it would stay out of a commonor's reach. For instance, a normal, quality dagger could cost several silver; a sublime crafted shield several golden pieces; an enchanted dagger could cost 50gp; a sword 80gp and a rare, enchanted plated armour would be 200gp. It doesn't need to be 10.000 golden coins - nobody walks around with that amount of coins.

 

Also, using copper, silver and gold should not be so confusing if a certain amount of copper coins equals one silver coin and several silver coins equals one golden coin, right? The current coins you use today are also made of different metals, since they differ in value. If 10 copper coins equals one silver coin; and 10 silver coins equals one golden coin, it's plain and simple for anyone and I believe it can bring money to be more interesting in the game.

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A few things: Adventurers were basically the 1% top earners in Faerun - everything adventurers bought was incredibly inflated, and most of it was fine as the adventurers still made way more than anyone charged them. Plus they had bags of holding and portable holes - weight-nullifying magic. That said, I do think it should be remade - it was a sort of tack-on way of compensating for a flat gold-reward scaling that was really broken. If magic is scarce, it makes sense that a piece of enchanted armor would cost a whole lot, but how much is something to consider. As does the question of how much of a fuedal setting PE will have. The complexity issue with copper/silver/gold is it doesn't make a terribly great amount of sense for gold to be of equal value everywhere, much less copper or silver.

 

So while 10 copper might be worth a silver in one city, and it might take a lot more copper in another city. In reality, silver tends to be a commodity that steadily rises in value - over years and decades, whereas gold lends itself to greater rises and falls, so a greater opportunity for gain. I think smaller denominations are a good idea, but how to implement them is a question, and really, it doesn't make terribly great sense for a goblin tribe to go around carrying the same sort of coinage as humans (assuming the goblins are like the feral creatures we see in other games). So if they can't carry a lot of human coinage, and their items don't really sell for much, it would probably be largely reliant on fetch quests for a shaman's fetish or chieften's headdress to earn some decent money, which is also non-optimal.

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