Integration is King

[Crusty]

Yus. This is a good thing. I think it's something Obsidian already take care in trying to imeplement though (internal consistency in regards to narrative and mechanics).

 

There's also examples of them utilising the relationship between the two for added storytelling benefit, like the Glow in Fallout 1, Dead Money's gold bars, the Spirit Meter in Mask of the Betrayer and TNO the immortal in Planescape: Torment.

 

So, I wouldn't worry too much about this.

 

Edited October 20, 2012 by Crusty

[PsychoBlonde]

Are you asking for "integration" or consistent internal logic?

 

This is really what the OP should mean, in my opinion.

 

I use the term integration specifically because the elements that are often disparate should instead work together and reflect each other as a unified whole--that's what integration means. The game doesn't have to react to everything, but the devs should make certain design decisions based on whether or not they can integrate certain things into the game. It is a design error to make a game where you can simultaneously rise to the leadership of a powerful faction AND be running around in the sewers as a nameless thief. They don't HAVE to make the game react to this situation, what they can do is just not create the situation in the first place by tuning the quest lines to be more "you play an important behind-the-scenes role" rather than "you save the guild and become the head of the organization". Putting quest lines that are better-suited to a linear variety of game into a big sandbox game makes the game disintegrated. The bits don't match up.

 

I'm really hoping they'll make a serious effort to integrate PE as much as possible. I don't expect it to be perfect--I can overlook the occasional bit of fridge logic. What I *really* dislike is when a big, important element is completely undercut by some spectacular bit of disintegration. Well, that, or when a large portion of the game is undercut by small but consistent problems.

[syn2083]

It always bothered me how in Skyrim you could join any of the guilds at will. I also always hated how you could basically finish the Winterhold College without barely using magic at all.

 

Thats basically all Bethesda games ever.

Actually, it's not. Before Oblivion every guild had a set of primary skills and attributes which you had to develop to advance in ranks. Yes, you can join the Mages Guild, but you'll stay a journeyman forever and stop receiving quests if you don't train your magic skills.

Morrowind had three great houses of which you could join only one. Fighters Guild and Thieves Guild conflicted with each other (if you completed an early quest for Eydis Fire-Eye, you couldn't join the thieves anymore).

Not to mention the guilds you didn't discover in your first playthrough (hidden requirements in Daggerfall, vampires in Morrowind).

 

TES had potential for consistency, but it was lost when Todd Howard decided his games were too spread-sheety

 

On topic: I agree with all points but one. Time limits - I don't like them. Yes, if there's a quest which requires my immediate attention, there should be consequences for not doing it right away (rescue mission in ME2, first mission in DX:HR). However, I don't want to constantly be under time pressure. I love exploring and I'd rather most of the game was obligation-free, so I can go wherever I want.

 

Curse you, educating the younglings.

 

My vitriolic attitude towards Bethesda has led me down a dark path.

 

Their games used to have WAY more internal, and logical consistency. The further they go now, the less they have. Morrowind was a pretty darn good game really, and the guild mechanics far superior to Obliv, and certainly way more than Skyrim.

 

As for the points that it is hard to have internal consistency... yes, and no.

 

The problem is more about the process in general, and setting up the proper system to handle it with your writers and mechanical developers. Bethesda, as the example, has moved further and further away from this as time is progressing, which is very disappointing. I have gone from being excited about a rich complex story with bethesda, to seeing a tour de force of short stories in an engine that is pretty. Sad.

[PsychoBlonde]

On topic: I agree with all points but one. Time limits - I don't like them. Yes, if there's a quest which requires my immediate attention, there should be consequences for not doing it right away (rescue mission in ME2, first mission in DX:HR). However, I don't want to constantly be under time pressure. I love exploring and I'd rather most of the game was obligation-free, so I can go wherever I want.

 

I don't like them either, but there isn't Only One Way to solve this problem. They could just NOT have the NPC come over all "please hurry hurry!" at you, but instead present a level of urgency in the dialog that reflects the ACTUAL level of urgency. I don't care which way they go, I just want them to be consistent with whichever one they pick. If there's no time limit, don't yell at us to hurry. This will also have the effect that if there IS a time limit, you'll be able to TELL without them beating you over the head with it. You won't get a situation where some invisible timer starts but you didn't realize it because the NPC giving you the quest sounded like every other "urgent" problem you get.

[Calmar]

You get "urgent emergencies please hurry!" where you can take your sweet time and nothing changes. (Every RPG ever except maybe Fallout).

 

I generally agree with you, but I think most of the time the game should not put you under time pressure.

[rjshae]

I've never liked the way guilds were implemented in cRPGs. For example, you basically have 'a' thieves guild that runs all thievery everywhere. I don't think that's the way it worked during the middle ages. Adding some cultural aspects to guilds would help.

[meomao]

I don't care all that much about whether specific elements get included in the story or mechanics. What I do care about is whether the story and mechanics are INTEGRATED.

 

Could not agree more. I don't understand why some people think that story and mechanic are at odds. Maybe they have played too much TES post-morrowind and believe that Oblivion/Skyrim poor writing is the mechanic's fault .

 

Narrative, gameplay and art are the three tools that developer use to deliver the game feel. The more organically the dev can use those tools the better the game experience for the players.

[Calmar]

I've never liked the way guilds were implemented in cRPGs. For example, you basically have 'a' thieves guild that runs all thievery everywhere. I don't think that's the way it worked during the middle ages. Adding some cultural aspects to guilds would help.

 

I really don't like thieves's guilds. In real-world Middle Ages, cities were among the first places to be under constant protection by the law. Citizens had to swear oaths of allegiance to the city and authorities generally had a much better idea about who was moving in their jurisdiction than rulers of rural areas. Thieves, ok; powerful individuals who employ criminals, ok; but no state within the state governing all things illegal.

[motorizer]

That reminds me of another thing elder scrolls does wrong...thieves guild and dark brotherhood armour....duh!

 

please don't add stuff like this

[evdk]

I really don't like thieves's guilds. In real-world Middle Ages, cities were among the first places to be under constant protection by the law. Citizens had to swear oaths of allegiance to the city and authorities generally had a much better idea about who was moving in their jurisdiction than rulers of rural areas. Thieves, ok; powerful individuals who employ criminals, ok; but no state within the state governing all things illegal.

Real world Middle Ages towns != fantasy metropolis with 300.000 inhabitants

In fact Real world != fantasy world

[Calmar]

I really don't like thieves's guilds. In real-world Middle Ages, cities were among the first places to be under constant protection by the law. Citizens had to swear oaths of allegiance to the city and authorities generally had a much better idea about who was moving in their jurisdiction than rulers of rural areas. Thieves, ok; powerful individuals who employ criminals, ok; but no state within the state governing all things illegal.

Real world Middle Ages towns != fantasy metropolis with 300.000 inhabitants

In fact Real world != fantasy world

 

Depends on the fantasy setting in question. If you want to emulate a medieval atmosphere, you should take medieval realities into account. If you have skyships, living automatons and flying crystal cities, on the other hand, you're not bound by reality.

[evdk]

I really don't like thieves's guilds. In real-world Middle Ages, cities were among the first places to be under constant protection by the law. Citizens had to swear oaths of allegiance to the city and authorities generally had a much better idea about who was moving in their jurisdiction than rulers of rural areas. Thieves, ok; powerful individuals who employ criminals, ok; but no state within the state governing all things illegal.

Real world Middle Ages towns != fantasy metropolis with 300.000 inhabitants

In fact Real world != fantasy world

 

Depends on the fantasy setting in question. If you want to emulate a medieval atmosphere, you should take medieval realities into account. If you have skyships, living automatons and flying crystal cities, on the other hand, you're not bound by reality.

Fantasy worlds where are remember thieves guild existing are Tamriel (which is a high magic peyote trip), FR (with 1.000.000+ a inhabitants city and magic up the ass), Midkemia (there's not that much magic, but it does not even try to pretend it's set in some kind of middle ages) and whatever world QfG is set in (rule of funny in action). I guess we're in agreement then, it's just that you haven't put the caveat in your original post.

[Rosveen]

Curse you, educating the younglings.

 

My vitriolic attitude towards Bethesda has led me down a dark path.

 

Their games used to have WAY more internal, and logical consistency. The further they go now, the less they have. Morrowind was a pretty darn good game really, and the guild mechanics far superior to Obliv, and certainly way more than Skyrim.

 

As for the points that it is hard to have internal consistency... yes, and no.

 

The problem is more about the process in general, and setting up the proper system to handle it with your writers and mechanical developers. Bethesda, as the example, has moved further and further away from this as time is progressing, which is very disappointing. I have gone from being excited about a rich complex story with bethesda, to seeing a tour de force of short stories in an engine that is pretty. Sad.

You won't get an argument from me on that. It's sad to watch (and play) the empty shell that TES has become.

 

It's crucial to make sure that the game world recognizes and responds to the player's actions. If you make a habit of slaughtering villagers, there should be a reaction in other places you visit. If you walk around throwing fireballs left and right in a place where magic is illegal, you should be immediately attacked by the law enforcement. These are the basics, but recent games showed that developers still (or maybe not anymore?) can't grasp them.

 

I believe that Project Eternity won't suffer from this problem because it's going to have a reputation system - the best way to measure your activity. It won't be black and white, but rather "you helped me, so I like you even if other people have issues with you".

 

 

That reminds me of another thing elder scrolls does wrong...thieves guild and dark brotherhood armour....duh!

I liked the thieves guild armor in Skyrim. In fact, I used it for the rest of the game. But yeah, if every assassin in the province dresses the same, then it's ridiculously easy to throw them all in jail

[sparklecat]

You get games where the lore considers your mage to be evil and dangerous, but NOBODY NOTICES when you go flinging fireballs around the city streets. (Dragon Age 2.)

This is probably the singular element of your list that is the biggest challenge to implement. Good AI covering all of the potential events and contingencies across a multitude of characters can be a lot of work. The remainder just require some careful game design and clear thinking.

 

I don't know, BG2 managed it; Cowled Wizards showing up if you cast magic in the streets, anyone?

[rjshae]

Their games used to have WAY more internal, and logical consistency. The further they go now, the less they have. Morrowind was a pretty darn good game really, and the guild mechanics far superior to Obliv, and certainly way more than Skyrim.

 

As for the points that it is hard to have internal consistency... yes, and no.

 

The problem is more about the process in general, and setting up the proper system to handle it with your writers and mechanical developers. Bethesda, as the example, has moved further and further away from this as time is progressing, which is very disappointing. I have gone from being excited about a rich complex story with bethesda, to seeing a tour de force of short stories in an engine that is pretty. Sad.

I wonder how much the problem is the result of having a large team of developers with each working on, say, different parts of the map or aspects of the game world? It's much harder to maintain consistency that way. The larger the setting grows, the worse the problem becomes.

[rjshae]

You get games where the lore considers your mage to be evil and dangerous, but NOBODY NOTICES when you go flinging fireballs around the city streets. (Dragon Age 2.)

This is probably the singular element of your list that is the biggest challenge to implement. Good AI covering all of the potential events and contingencies across a multitude of characters can be a lot of work. The remainder just require some careful game design and clear thinking.

 

I don't know, BG2 managed it; Cowled Wizards showing up if you cast magic in the streets, anyone?

True. But that is just a small faction responding to a singular type of event. It's easier to code than a large population with diverse responses and complex institutions.

[sparklecat]

You get games where the lore considers your mage to be evil and dangerous, but NOBODY NOTICES when you go flinging fireballs around the city streets. (Dragon Age 2.)

This is probably the singular element of your list that is the biggest challenge to implement. Good AI covering all of the potential events and contingencies across a multitude of characters can be a lot of work. The remainder just require some careful game design and clear thinking.

 

I don't know, BG2 managed it; Cowled Wizards showing up if you cast magic in the streets, anyone?

True. But that is just a small faction responding to a singular type of event. It's easier to code than a large population with diverse responses and complex institutions.

 

Oh, definitely. But I think the OP was just talking about the most egregious ways that sort of thing could show up; how DA2 handled (or didn't handle) your mage characters and reactions to them was a travesty. There's a limit on how much reactivity you can put in a game, but for something that's very likely or basically a given (such as: there will be at least one mage in the party), you've got to consistently put in appropriate reactions.

 

I imagine Obsidian's quite aware of how important this sort of thing is, though!

[syn2083]

Their games used to have WAY more internal, and logical consistency. The further they go now, the less they have. Morrowind was a pretty darn good game really, and the guild mechanics far superior to Obliv, and certainly way more than Skyrim.

 

As for the points that it is hard to have internal consistency... yes, and no.

 

The problem is more about the process in general, and setting up the proper system to handle it with your writers and mechanical developers. Bethesda, as the example, has moved further and further away from this as time is progressing, which is very disappointing. I have gone from being excited about a rich complex story with bethesda, to seeing a tour de force of short stories in an engine that is pretty. Sad.

I wonder how much the problem is the result of having a large team of developers with each working on, say, different parts of the map or aspects of the game world? It's much harder to maintain consistency that way. The larger the setting grows, the worse the problem becomes.

 

I think that again goes into structure and proper planning.

 

If you have a large team, the initial setup of all systems to keep everyone on the same page, from a logic consistency page could be large, but it becomes a joke when this isnt even remotely attempted.

 

One of the things that I saw from Obsidian as they were making videos and whatnot during this process was how they create tons of Wikis, Videos etc that allow the developers to read, listen to, watch what the lore is, the mechanics, the world rules and logic. As they go they expand, and everyone is on the same page. Immediately.

 

It is clear bethesda either doesnt approach this in any manner that works, or the process has broken down so much that no one really cares about it anymore there.

[PsychoBlonde]

What I like the best is when gameplay decisions you make have impacts on story and vice versa. They have some great examples of this in Dungeons and Dragons Online, such as in the quest Chains of Flame there's a guy who's been cursed with blindness and you have to take the curse off him by becoming blind yourself in order to cure him. Here's the thing though--items of blindness immunity prevent the curse from impairing you, and it's not some kind of invincible GM fiat curse--you can remove it with the remove curse spell. I find that kind of thing utterly delightful. Every part of the game is on the same page--a curse is a curse is a curse and what works on one works on all. Blindness is blindness is blindness, and what works on one works on all.

 

Or things like, maybe there's supposed to be a scene where you get mind controlled, but you're wearing an Immunity to Charm item and so the scene plays out differently. Or you can short-circuit a dude who's supposed to raise a bunch of undead by insta-killing him at range. Or you can stun enemies to prevent them from sounding the alarm.

[Drakxii]

Yes please! I want consistent internal logic it makes games SO much better. When looking at plot of this game no should have to use the rule of cool or it's just a game as an excuse for plot holes or railroading.

[eselle28]

On topic: I agree with all points but one. Time limits - I don't like them. Yes, if there's a quest which requires my immediate attention, there should be consequences for not doing it right away (rescue mission in ME2, first mission in DX:HR). However, I don't want to constantly be under time pressure. I love exploring and I'd rather most of the game was obligation-free, so I can go wherever I want.

 

I don't like them either, but there isn't Only One Way to solve this problem. They could just NOT have the NPC come over all "please hurry hurry!" at you, but instead present a level of urgency in the dialog that reflects the ACTUAL level of urgency. I don't care which way they go, I just want them to be consistent with whichever one they pick. If there's no time limit, don't yell at us to hurry. This will also have the effect that if there IS a time limit, you'll be able to TELL without them beating you over the head with it. You won't get a situation where some invisible timer starts but you didn't realize it because the NPC giving you the quest sounded like every other "urgent" problem you get.

 

This is pretty much where I'm at when it comes to urgency. I hate timed quests with a passion, but also don't like it when the game tells me something is urgent and it turns out that's not the case. It seems like the most egregious examples can be written around, though - either the game can portray something as needing to be done but doable on a flexible time scale (this works well with mystery plots) or it can describe the problem as something that will take time and preparation to solve and that maybe shouldn't be dived into immediately.