[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[evdk]

I'm not the one trying to propagate and defend that kind dogma or hold it up as some sort of great egalitarian movement that has to be everywhere...

 

"Conservapedia" isn't exactly a way to make yourself look well-read in a subject. But hey, I guess "Conservapedia" is a more trustworthy source of information than say, the UN.

That's a matter of some debate, I would say. Can't say I really agree.

EDIT: About the trustworthiness, I mean.

Edited October 20, 2012 by evdk

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

 

It may shock you to know that women aren't a hive mind neither are feminists

 

Feminism isn't an 'extremist' movement. It's a movement that promotes equality between men and women. Those women may identify as feminists but they aren't they are supremacists. It's like thinking that the Westboro Baptist Church represents all Christians.

 

I've been gaming since 1984 I don't think it's too much to ask for my sex to be treated better and with more respect within the medium of video games.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Joukehainen]

That's a matter of some debate, I would say. Can't say I really agree.

EDIT: About the trustworthiness, I mean.

 

Yeah, who needs facts verified by researchers in multiple nations with non-profit goals of supporting human rights and freedoms, when you have non-sourced quotes from a website that thinks homosexuality is evil?

 

The post was still pointless. If you tried to round up all the egregiously sexist comments that people in positions of power have said about women... well yeah. Just try. You'll run out of HD space.

 

Besides, this is not a contest. Is he seriously suggesting that he's so hurt by those comments he quoted, that he can't stand the thought of having women represented in a nuanced and non-stereotyped manner in games, and that men should also be represented in a nuanced and non-stereotyped fashion, as most of the serious posters here also stress?

Edited October 20, 2012 by Joukehainen

[casa]

 

We don't want them to be 'just like' male characters but we want to do the same things as a male character ie. Kill Deathclaws, Reapers and Dragons. No one is trying to turn video games into Twilight (ugh) like that guy I quoted was suggesting. I personally hate romance and dresses....

 

There are plenty of instances in those games where your sex is mentioned. Black Widow checks for example. I just really don't understand this need for men to have women portrayed as the bitches of every fantasy universe. When we have to play a over sexualised female character it's like a guy being forced to play as Edward or Jacob from Twilight, let that sink in.

 

Absolutely on my sheet too. And it doesn't only apply to female players, trust me, as a guy who likes playing female characters (partly because I'm so horribly bored by male stereotypes too) this is exactly what I love about games like Fallout 3/ NV and other good examples. You're doing the same stuff as the guys without being a guy with breasts - the game takes your gender into account without forcing directly a female stereotype on you and putting you into ridiculous harlot outfits.

I guess the large popularity of The Sims or the Disney cliché of women might make some men believe that once the female population also starts acknowledging their favorite games they might want to turn them into the same little princess stuff, which of course is absolutely ridiculous. I think most girls just want to have the feeling that "this game was made for us too".

[Gyor]

My position on Feminism is simple. I support equality, but get the f*** out of my bedroom.

 

I support legislation for equal pay for equal work, I support publicly funded access to abortian for women who choose it, I oppose spousal abuse, I support rape shield laws, I oppose income inequality, I don't use terms like feminazi which I find offencive and so on.

 

In return I'm villified for my sexuality, I'm called a mysgonist because my sexuality does not conform to feminist dictates, I'm a proud sexual sadist/dominate (with consent), and as such I will be Satan to most feminists.

 

Because I'm attracted to fit women with large breasts I'm villified for encouraging unhealthy body imagine, had I been lucky enough to be attracted to **** I would be celebrated (for the record I support gay rights).

 

I also love porn, three strikes I'm out.

 

So while I agree with many things with Feminists it matters not, I'm the enemy or so many of them have decided, to be repressed at every opportunity (nevermind they repress other women in the process).

 

Certain groups of feminists have been so focused on the Patcherarchy that they've begun to resemble it, a macherarchy. They've,been staring into the Abyss for too long.

 

To be fair that more radical feminists, there are other types with more of a live and let live attidude. I tend to get along with chovanist feminists well enough (that the type of feminist that will join a wet t-shirt contest).

[UncleBourbon]

We don't want them to be 'just like' male characters but we want to do the same things as a male character ie. Kill Deathclaws, Reapers and Dragons. No one is trying to turn video games into Twilight (ugh) like that guy I quoted was suggesting. I personally hate romance and dresses....

 

There are plenty of instances in those games where your sex is mentioned. Black Widow checks for example. I just really don't understand this need for men to have women portrayed as the bitches of every fantasy universe. When we have to play a over sexualised female character it's like a guy being forced to play as Edward or Jacob from Twilight, let that sink in.

 

Absolutely on my sheet too. And it doesn't only apply to female players, trust me, as a guy who likes playing female characters (partly because I'm so horribly bored by male stereotypes too) this is exactly what I love about games like Fallout 3/ NV and other good examples. You're doing the same stuff as the guys without being a guy with breasts - the game takes your gender into account without forcing directly a female stereotype on you and putting you into ridiculous harlot outfits.

I guess the large popularity of The Sims or the Disney cliché of women might make some men believe that once the female population also starts acknowledging their favorite games they might want to turn them into the same little princess stuff, which of course is absolutely ridiculous. I think most girls just want to have the feeling that "this game was made for us too".

 

Yep. Fallout 3 and New Vegas - with Tales of Two Worlds - is pretty fun. I tend to use a simple mod that enables the child at heart perk for NV, and go with both black widow and cherchez les femme to maximize dialogue option. Yeah, sometimes they're kind of stupid, but it is balanced in those two to some degree because male characters get the confirmed bachelor/ladies' man perks, which while themed a bit differently, are the same in that you're using your characters sex appeal to try and do something you might not otherwise be able to do.

[Chabneruk]

TMI

 

Very not interesting.

 

Can we get back to the discussion now, without further discussing feminism or whatever that was supposed to be?

Edited October 20, 2012 by Chabneruk

[Joukehainen]

I'm a proud sexual sadist

 

Yeah. TMI. TMI. TMI TMI TMI.

 

I also love porn, three strikes I'm out.

 

Feminism apparently uses baseball rules.

 

Certain groups of feminists have been so focused on the Patcherarchy

 

I have no idea what a "patcherarchy" is. Rule by patches?

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

 

Gaming is not your bedroom. It is enjoyed by more than just you. Women play games too and we don't like being represented as mindless bimbos who fight in chainmail bikinis.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[UncleBourbon]

Rule by patches? Well, I would hate to think of rulers the quality of bethesda patches. That said; I think this topic has rounded, cartwheeled, headstanded and flagellated itself quite thoroughly. Most comments seem to simply be things said somewhere in the past 26 pages and left unseen. The discussion is good and all, and it may indeed provide something for the devs to read to learn about some of their auidience.

 

That said, I think we can agree, every group and belief system has extremists; this might be an interesting thing to be represented in game. Likewise, the level of dress and sexual content in and of itself doesn't seem as great an issue as the implementation, in a tasteful manner, with relative equality to both genders of player character, and from the appropriate parties. Likewise, having some male NPCs attractive, and some not, and then ALL female NPCs being more attractive seems artificial to some degree. Maybe a myssal of female beauty was cast? Anyway, the point being that these trends in other cRPGs are things we hope - and as many have stated, trust Obsidian will not be in Project Eternity.

 

Highly sexualized female appearence will likely be a reduced occurance anyway - the top down, isometric nature makes it hard. In dialogue, though, it may differ. But what I think is a good example of how to handle this (admittedly, I am a man, so I don't know how women might view it) is the Drakensang games. There is a scantily clad, amazon class/race, but also a variety of female builds and classes that clearly do not parade around their assets to get ahead, and are just as much the stabby sword wielder or brutish meat tank as their male counter parts. A downside of drakensang, I thought, was the lack of adaptation of the NPCs and such to the character, but otherwise have a wide selection of appearence, few assumptions/forced roles on a player character would be a good thing. In a 3d RPG, I think the first time you go to equip some armor or something, they should simply have a screen pop up, and some different looks of armor you can equip. A lot of coding, true. In an isometric game, I think the major stress is going to be on dialoge and interactions.

[Joukehainen]

Agreed, UncleBourbon, and I think what we've seen so far of Cadegund and Sagani, Obsidian is doing a great job with giving us female characters that don't look objectified or over-sexualized. They are certainly attractive by conventional standards, but they also look like feasible warriors in a fantastical setting.

[TheMufflon]

(Emphasis mine)

 

We don't want them to be 'just like' male characters[...]

Women don't want to turn gaming into romance novellas we just want our player character to have an ounce of dignity.

women want pretty much the same power fantasy as men in games

It may shock you to know that women aren't a hive mind

 

Yet you presume to speak for all of them?

Edited October 20, 2012 by TheMufflon

[Margaretha]

I would like an RPG, maybe this one, to be a bit like Gulliver's Travels. It could offer the player and the developers the opportunity to play with civilizations concepts, weird tribes ideas, of believable and original, and fantastic (as in "fantasy" ?) cultures. New place = new culture, little-endians or something else, a pretext for brain-food, something that would give the player fresh ideas on a topic (women role included).

 

Creating the new place, the new chapter, would require from the designers mandatory questions, including language, history, economics, morals and... genders' roles, indeed.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Margaretha

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

 

It may surprise you to know this but I do a lot of reading on this subject and it's not just me who has this opinion. I'm not saying this from a position of ignorance. I happen to know from being in the communities of said games that they are popular with women. I read the blogs of other women who game and participate frequently in debates on the subject.

 

I'm in no way speaking for all women but just presenting what is evident time and time again.

 

Here is a link from a 'female geek' website that pretty much matches what I have said as an example. Note the many comments below lauding the piece.

 

http://www.themarysu...e-protagonists/

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Joukehainen]

Yet you presume to speak for all of them?

 

You know what Moonlight Butterfly means, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. With some statements one can take liabilities, such as "people don't want to be murdered" or "people don't want to be disrespected" or "people don't want their gender to be represented in an objectified, one-dimensional, stereotyped fashion."

[RaccoonTOF]

I would like an RPG, maybe this one, to be a bit like Gulliver's Travels. It could offer the player and the developers the opportunity to play with civilizations concepts, weird tribes ideas, of believable and original, and fantastic (as in "fantasy" ?) cultures. New place = new culture, little-endians or something else, a pretext for brain-food, something that would give the player fresh ideas on a topic (women role included).

 

Creating the new place, the new chapter, would require from the designers mandatory questions, including language, history, economics, morals and... genders' roles, indeed.

Overall for the game world in entirety, this might end up being possible. We have to also keep in mind that on release, P:E is going to be focusing the vast majority of the content on what amounts to a single kingdom. And we already know that the area which will be present in the game is only a very small slice of the whole world envisioned (I believe one of the comments about the released map was that it occupied an area roughly the size of Spain in relation to the rest of the world). So while there are a lot of opportunities for the sorts of differences you would see city-by-city, and plenty of possibilities to represent a diversity of races as "foreigners", the actual exploration of different places and cultures on a grand sense over the course of the player's adventure is actually going to be pretty limited with what we will have on initial release.

[BSoda]

snip

 

It may surprise you to know this but I do a lot of reading on this subject and it's not just me who has this opinion. I'm not saying this from a position of ignorance. I happen to know from being in the communities of said games that they are popular with women. I read the blogs of other women who game and participate frequently in debates on the subject.

 

I'm in no way speaking for all women but just presenting what is evident time and time again.

 

Here is a link from a 'female geek' website that pretty much matches what I have said as an example. Note the many comments below lauding the piece.

 

http://www.themarysu...e-protagonists/

What did you think of New Vegas ? Because I honestly don't expect Obsidian to kind of bork this up. Imo, they've done well on this topic, so far.

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

I'm kind of confused as to how wanting characters in a video game to be realistic and not pointlessly fetishized turned into supporting genital mutilation. I'm fond of my genitals. I'd like to keep them somewhere south of mutilated.

Edited October 20, 2012 by HungryHungryOuroboros

[SunBroSolaire]

I demand realism in depictions of gender. Female characters should be able to do everything male characters can do. They should just earn 73% of the XP for it

 

 

I kid, I kid. Feminism is cool.

[RaccoonTOF]

On the appearance side of the argument, I think these two quotes from the above linked article put it best:

 

If I feel that what she’s wearing impedes her ability to do her job well — either due to physical risk or other people not taking her seriously — all credibility goes out the window. And if she’s in an outfit that says “sexy” while all her male counterparts are in outfits that say “powerful,” that’s a red flag — especially if she’s the only woman there.

 

and

 

Just to make things one hundred percent clear — I’ve got nothing against sexy. To the men and women out there who enjoy dressing their characters in skimpy clothes, go forth and have fun. My issue is not with sexualized portrayals of women, but that said portrayals are the rule rather than the exception. So long as our playing field is level, there’s no reason to erase portions of it entirely.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

What did you think of New Vegas ? Because I honestly don't expect Obsidian to kind of bork this up. Imo, they've done well on this topic, so far.

 

I think they have done very well so far and I have absolute confidence that a game with Sawyer involved in it will have respect for women. However, I noticed some of the rather discouraging comments from backers in this thread I thought I would speak up. I'm, in no way, saying Obsidian need assistance on this one although I did link an article on the portrayal of women in Dishonoured earlier that I think would be helpful for the devs to read.

 

I think New Vegas was excellent (280 hours playtime later hehe) in how it treated gender although I never was able to bring myself to work for the Legion

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Joukehainen]

But HungryHungryOuroboros, there's no two ways about it! If we support the creation of female characters in games that are more than sexual objects, we'll end up with a world full of castrated men! WAKE UP, PEOPLE!!!!

 

 

I would like an RPG, maybe this one, to be a bit like Gulliver's Travels. It could offer the player and the developers the opportunity to play with civilizations concepts, weird tribes ideas, of believable and original, and fantastic (as in "fantasy" ?) cultures. New place = new culture, little-endians or something else, a pretext for brain-food, something that would give the player fresh ideas on a topic (women role included).

 

Creating the new place, the new chapter, would require from the designers mandatory questions, including language, history, economics, morals and... genders' roles, indeed.

Overall for the game world in entirety, this might end up being possible. We have to also keep in mind that on release, P:E is going to be focusing the vast majority of the content on what amounts to a single kingdom. And we already know that the area which will be present in the game is only a very small slice of the whole world envisioned (I believe one of the comments about the released map was that it occupied an area roughly the size of Spain in relation to the rest of the world). So while there are a lot of opportunities for the sorts of differences you would see city-by-city, and plenty of possibilities to represent a diversity of races as "foreigners", the actual exploration of different places and cultures on a grand sense over the course of the player's adventure is actually going to be pretty limited with what we will have on initial release.

 

I really love that idea, and it was quite well explored in PS:T, albeit in a different sense, since there you had the Sigil as the sort of nexus city of all of the Planes. Mmm, endless opportunities for creativity.

 

Since we have six races, one of which is the Godlike, I'm sure we'll get a good smattering of different philosophies, cultures, etc.

[Starker]

I know I'm late to the breastplate party, but I just wanted to make sure this comic strip makes an appearance:

 

http://oglaf.com/breastplate/

[Joukehainen]

I know I'm late to the breastplate party, but I just wanted to make sure this comic strip makes an appearance:

 

http://oglaf.com/breastplate/

 

I love Oglaf! :D haha.

 

And on the topic of representation of genders and sex, Oglaf is "just" a sex comic full of **** jokes and naughty humor, and yet does a great job of showing variation in appearances/bodies and personalities.

[sparklecat]

 

Here is a link from a 'female geek' website that pretty much matches what I have said as an example. Note the many comments below lauding the piece.

 

http://www.themarysu...e-protagonists/

 

Let me just highlight this quote from there too, since it's something I've been wanting to say:

 

"Overcoming societal obstacles and breaking gender barriers is not a power fantasy for me. In fact, a lot of the time, it’s part and parcel of my day-to-day reality. My power fantasy takes place in a world where those issues are gone, where I can be a champion without any red tape. The minute a game reminds me that my ass-kicking heroine is viewed as lesser — even if it’s done in a way that coaxes me to prove all the haters wrong — it feels like a slap in the face. It’s not fun. It’s frustrating."