[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[Grimlorn]

I didn't realize we had so many experts on boob platemail armor. Fascinating.

 

How have you guys tested these boob plate armors?

 

Actually...yes. I've made both chain and "half-plate" armors for SCA participants, along with a number of other materials. And there are plenty of other sources available to back it up if you choose not to take "my" word for it. One fellow who posted an article over at MadArtLab earlier in the thread I believe explained it well there also, and there have been countless discussions on how and why plate (and other forms of) armor were shaped and designed as they were in historical reenactment circles. There are a number of other misconceptions (such as maneuverability in "full plate" armor, mounting a horse, etc etc) which have been disproven time and again too, yet people still seem to persist in believing them - often due to movie depictions and/or reliance on older history books and the like which did not have a very good real understanding and only went for the "common sense" explanation - and lemme tell you, when designing weapons and armor for actual combat use, "common sense" actually ends up having VERY little to do with real life...

I was actually being sarcastic. I don't really care about a nerdy discussion about armor. Realism isn't a very good argument for games as they lack it in spades. I've seen women complain that women in games didn't look feminine enough, so you're going to have that if you just make them look like men with long hair in full armor.

[UncleBourbon]

As much as I like the nerdy portion of the discussion, I'd agree that some balance of realism and aesthetics would be desirable. That said, as an infinity engine game, I imagine actual appearance is going to be backseated to portraits and talking heads (maybe). This isn't really a bad thing, but it minimizes the adrogeny issue. As for possible incorrectness in my ewarlier assumptions: I was basing much of the information regarding heavy armors and such was largely based on a similair discussion I had with some people the better part of a decade ago, so new facts may have since come to light.

[RaccoonTOF]

I'm not for them looking like "men with long hair in full armor" either - if you read the second link that Uncle Bourbon posted above, you will see that there are other ways of making "feminine" armor still be realistic. Sure, it might be "more" realistic to not add the "feminine" touches, but as you say, this is still a fantasy game. However I would like to still see realism and consistency within the universe created - yes, magic is "unreal" for example, but when you have an established system for the magic, and then something comes along and breaks that system in a totally over the top way without a good explanation, that breaks the "realism" of that magic. To say that massive plates of thick metal armor protect you by the inherent qualities of the massive plates of thick metal, and then to go and have that same armor, same defense value, when worn on a female character suddenly be missing 3/4 of the body coverage...that breaks the realism. And actually those are the sorts of things which bother me more than "boob plate" honestly, but if someone is going to make a blatantly false statement or call into question legitimate arguments which are made for realism based on incorrect facts - then yes, I think there is nothing wrong with rebutting those statements either (like the post I quoted above by Gyor, trying to use "the reason in history why they didn't exist"...)

[kenup]

As much as I like the nerdy portion of the discussion, I'd agree that some balance of realism and aesthetics would be desirable. That said, as an infinity engine game, I imagine actual appearance is going to be backseated to portraits and talking heads (maybe). This isn't really a bad thing, but it minimizes the adrogeny issue. As for possible incorrectness in my ewarlier assumptions: I was basing much of the information regarding heavy armors and such was largely based on a similair discussion I had with some people the better part of a decade ago, so new facts may have since come to light.

No arguing against aesthetics. Look at Cadegund's armour, it's really good from both a functionality and aesthetics standpoint. In my opinion anyway.

[BruceVC]

I didn't realize we had so many experts on boob platemail armor. Fascinating.

 

How have you guys tested these boob plate armors?

http://kotaku.com/58...who-makes-armor

http://madartlab.com...-and-lady-bits/

Are some of the easy to find sources. I sat in on a lecture of middle-ages armor at university and they discussed this at well with some more academic sources. That, and physics evidence.

 

Also, I indeed think most of this worry is uneeded. Obsidian has a good track record, of both enthralling storytelling and quality game mechanics and graphics. That said, I've seen companies deviate and fall short of their potential - especially as of late. I still have hope and trust in them to make another immensely enjoyable game.

 

Ouch Grimlorn, you didn't expect to actually find someone who does know what they are talking about. ..sorry buddy but it happens when you call someones bluff

[JadedWolf]

Yes, this is a good point. If this is analogous to 16th century, being fat should be very rare, and mostly exclusive to royalty and aristocracy. Having a fat diplomat companion with no combat skills but great charisma and intelligence would be acceptable.

 

Body fat should be a sign of wealth, I think, but also predominant amongst people who work with food and thus use the opportunity to stuff themselves when they can. But as I said, well-trained or lean bodies are not necessarily beautiful.

 

You are absolutely right. Take this gentleman, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bartholomeus_van_der_Helst_-_Gerard_Andriesz_Bicker.jpg

 

Which raises the point; beauty isn't something objective and quantifiable. Ever seen a Rubens? The ladies in his paintings didn't skip any meals, and yet they were considered beautiful. Not going to link, since none of them are wearing any clothes and that might be frowned upon.

 

So who says that in this fantasy world they would even apply the same standard to beauty that our society does, anyway? I highly doubt they would share in our worshipping of anorexic teenagers.

[Grimlorn]

I didn't realize we had so many experts on boob platemail armor. Fascinating.

 

How have you guys tested these boob plate armors?

http://kotaku.com/58...who-makes-armor

http://madartlab.com...-and-lady-bits/

Are some of the easy to find sources. I sat in on a lecture of middle-ages armor at university and they discussed this at well with some more academic sources. That, and physics evidence.

 

Also, I indeed think most of this worry is uneeded. Obsidian has a good track record, of both enthralling storytelling and quality game mechanics and graphics. That said, I've seen companies deviate and fall short of their potential - especially as of late. I still have hope and trust in them to make another immensely enjoyable game.

 

Ouch Grimlorn, you didn't expect to actually find someone who does know what they are talking about. ..sorry buddy but it happens when you call someones bluff

Ouch BruceVC, can't into reading.

[RaccoonTOF]

The ladies in his paintings didn't skip any meals, and yet they were considered beautiful. Not going to link, since none of them are wearing any clothes...

 

This in itself is enough to qualify for beauty in the minds of many

[oldhomehaibane]

Which raises the point; beauty isn't something objective and quantifiable. Ever seen a Rubens? The ladies in his paintings didn't skip any meals, and yet they were considered beautiful. Not going to link, since none of them are wearing any clothes and that might be frowned upon.

 

Another more extreme example supporting your point would be beauty standards in Mauritania: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25DxHXz8ZUQ

 

Not related to weight, but the practice of ohaguro (お歯黒) or teeth-blackening in pre-Meiji Japan is another excellent example which shows how drastically beauty standards can vary from culture to culture.

Edited October 19, 2012 by oldhomehaibane

[Lastan]

Mount & Blade had women characters in single player which were definitively suffering from sexism (male lords mostly hated them, it was harder to get successful etc.) which made it quite intrigueing to play a woman and to overcome these difficulties with skill in fighting or manipulation. The game should thematise sexism, but not be sexist. It is a fine line to walk for sure, but it would add realism and another level of gameplay.

It’s been a long while since I played IWD games, but I seem to remember different options and attitudes depending not only on character’s alignment but also on race and sex.

 

I think a good approach would be making some aspect of playing either sex problematic in a way (and, who knows, maybe a sexless or multi-sexed race to play as well; I haven’t followed updates in detail, so I don’t know if all the races have been announced). Depending on the lore and the size of the world, the problematic aspects could even differ in different parts.

[Chabneruk]

So who says that in this fantasy world they would even apply the same standard to beauty that our society does, anyway? I highly doubt they would share in our worshipping of anorexic teenagers.

 

A discussion like this is where I wanted to go with this thread. So we have two levels of discussion now:

1.) What are the standards of beauty in PE? Do they differ between cultures ingame, for example?

2.) The depiction of women ingame (and men, though average/ugly-looking men seem to be more common in games) in regards to realism and believability of the world.

 

I think a good approach would be making some aspect of playing either sex problematic in a way (and, who knows, maybe a sexless or multi-sexed race to play as well; I haven’t followed updates in detail, so I don’t know if all the races have been announced).

 

Another interesting idea here. The way I see it, maybe the developers take a look into the forums from time to time and find some inspiration!

Edited October 19, 2012 by Chabneruk

[Calmar]

Yes, this is a good point. If this is analogous to 16th century, being fat should be very rare, and mostly exclusive to royalty and aristocracy. Having a fat diplomat companion with no combat skills but great charisma and intelligence would be acceptable.

 

Body fat should be a sign of wealth, I think, but also predominant amongst people who work with food and thus use the opportunity to stuff themselves when they can. But as I said, well-trained or lean bodies are not necessarily beautiful.

 

You are absolutely right. Take this gentleman, for example. http://en.wikipedia....iesz_Bicker.jpg

 

Which raises the point; beauty isn't something objective and quantifiable. Ever seen a Rubens? The ladies in his paintings didn't skip any meals, and yet they were considered beautiful. Not going to link, since none of them are wearing any clothes and that might be frowned upon.

 

So who says that in this fantasy world they would even apply the same standard to beauty that our society does, anyway? I highly doubt they would share in our worshipping of anorexic teenagers.

 

Well, they'll probably want to share our society's standard to beauty if they want to sell plenty of copies of Project Eternity...

 

But other than that, general preference for slim women appears to be a more recent development.

 

 

 

 

 

[anek]

No arguing against aesthetics. Look at Cadegund's armour, it's really good from both a functionality and aesthetics standpoint. In my opinion anyway.

 

I agree. She looks much better in the armor they ended up giving her in the kickstarter concept art, compared to the earlier revision with the boob plate.

 

And it is more realistic and less stereotyped.

 

Win - win.

[UncleBourbon]

I think there are still several regions where heavier set individuals are preferred. That said, I think the original poster did well in starting this discussion, and I am sorry I helped derail it so.

 

I am rather curious how appearance and such is going to be presented; the information we have is scarce, but the major empire is both elvan and human, with few social barriers and ceremonial intermarrying, but with significant differences in life spans. If elves retain their beauty with age, as they tend toward in other games, it would be curious to see how much difference in life span there is, and how both humans and elves behave in response.

 

Also, Cadegund looks nicer now than ever before to me. Maybe through the game you can encourage her to flaunt her looks a bit more, but as a priest, I doubt she'd be too showy anyway (using religions in our world as a reference).

Edited October 19, 2012 by UncleBourbon

[Luridis]

Not really no, if there were no ugly people and all were happy with everyone else there would be a lot less social issues....like diets and cosmetics and attitude problems and divorces and on and on and on.

 

And on the day "The Dark Lord" becomes "Lord of the Flies" and he looks in the mirror one last time. Will he be unhappy because time severed pretty from that visage so long ago? Luridis listens and hears the chattering of Darthy's teeth at the mere mention of those horrors called age and death.

 

tic... toc... tic... toc... Muhahaha!

 

<Grins> Oh, don't worry about Trethon, he'll be fine. Just leave him there, chained to fate...

Edited October 19, 2012 by Luridis

[UncleBourbon]

I always liked how certain high level spells in D&D could prematurely age you, with little recourse. Was fun to venture off on a quest, return a week later looking ten years later and explain it to everyone in town.

[Chabneruk]

That said, I think the original poster did well in starting this discussion...

 

Thank you

 

... and I am sorry I helped derail it so.

 

No worries...

 

If elves retain their beauty with age, as they tend toward in other games, it would be curious to see how much difference in life span there is, and how both humans and elves behave in response.

 

It has become a trend in fantasy to treat races differently from their original approach. Take the elves in The Witcher for example or in Dragon Age, where they are a suppressed minority, "blessed" with longer lifespans but utterly helpless against the fast-breeding humans and their quite violent approach towards other cultures. Which kind of is the logical consequence of the human condition when confronted with something different - and, in this case, enviable (because of beauty and immortality).

 

The developers have announced conflicts between races and also inter-racial conflict already, if I am not mistaken. See "Races" here. There is also the question how the elves will be presented themselves: Noble, beautiful, immortal rulers like in Tolkiens works? Or nasty, opportunistic, soulless creatures like, for example, in the Discworld? If it was leaned towards the latter, they might use glamour, which would explain that every culture regards them as beautiful.

 

I kind of see the problem with average-looking elves, as they (men and women) are regarded as of mythical beauty. But I also see an opportunity here: Having a lot of average-looking humans would make the elves special, as their beauty would stand out - and present a reason for envy and conflict.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Chabneruk

[UncleBourbon]

Indeed, I think much of that is likely. I imagine the godlike races - at least, some of them - would probably be considered very pleasing to the eyes. Elves could go either way (as could the half-elf equivalents), but from the description given in KS update 20, the Aedyr empire (which from the frequent mentions, would seem important) tends to have a fashion of relatively simple clothes with colorful stipes and accents.

 

Basically, I think appearence will mean a good deal to some, but less to others - maybe the elderly elves, or the particularly religous. I'd say how much importance society-wide given to aesthetics may rely on the social values (is it like the victorian era of prudishness, or is it closer to the sixties, with all the norms of gender roles and archetypical beauty being thrown out?). The (assumedly) recent discovery of black powder would suggest a bit in our past, but technology would probably develope significantly differently if magic were present (just look at shadowrun).

 

The idea of more fae-like elves, and most of their appeal being subtle enchantment, is rather entertaining to think about. Reminds me a bit of warhammer 40k, where the primarchs (and of course, the Emperor) being radiant and indescribably beautiful, though on a much lower scale. Maybe the integration of humans into the Aedyr empire wasn't so much a natural thing, and more of a subtle manipulation?

 

I think far more resentment and envy would happen if there was a standard caste or class difference as a result of racial divide - which is typical in our world, but has been conceptually done away with before. We don't know a whole lot about the racial situation, but as the Aedyr ethnicity is described as "fair skin and a variety of hair and eye colors, with blue and green being common," several of the other races may look different enough to come across as both exotic to some, and alien to others.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

As for the original OP I thought this article on the portrayal of women in Dishonoured might be a useful thing for the devs to read. It definitely matches my views on the whole 'sexism in fantasy games' angle. This is pretty much how it should be done. Not as a part of a male power fantasy (disturbing as that thought is) but a commentary on how sexism can both be damaging and pervasive in society.

 

http://www.themarysu...o-tell-a-story/

 

Or nasty, opportunistic, soulless creatures like, for example, in the Discworld? If it was leaned towards the latter, they might use glamour, which would explain that every culture regards them as beautiful.

 

I kind of see the problem with average-looking elves, as they (men and women) are regarded as of mythical beauty. But I also see an opportunity here: Having a lot of average-looking humans would make the elves special, as their beauty would stand out - and present a reason for envy and conflict.

 

In a lot of British mythology Elves are closer to demons and use beauty in a similar way to vampires. They are definitely not pleasant creatures. Pratchett has represented this in his work.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Giantevilhead]

The goal of "realism" is not to make things like the real world but to construct a world that is consistent and logical.

 

It's not about having or not having women that look a certain way or equipment for women that look a certain way. It's about having physiques and equipment that make sense.

 

It's perfectly fine to have women who are wear little armor if it makes sense. No one would complain if a female monk wore as little as Furton because monks don't rely on armor, they use acrobats, martial arts, and mystical abilities to protect themselves. However, it makes no sense for a female knight to wear bikini armor or boob plates because that would put them at a disadvantage compared to other knights for no reason.

 

It's perfectly fine to have women that match western ideals of beauty. For example, there's nothing wrong with a debutante from an aristocratic family in a culture with standards similar to ours to look like Natalie Portman or Charlize Theron. However, if you have a mining town where everyone does hard labor digging through the earth, shoveling ore, pushing huge carts of rocks, etc., then it makes no sense for the men to look like pro wrestlers and the women to look like super models.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Giantevilhead

[FlintlockJazz]

Not going to read the whole thread so apologies if already said, but I'm with those fed up with the oversexualised and ego stroking looks we have been lumped with in recent years for both genders. I only played it for a month, but one thing I realised that even the mages looked like Arnie on steroids and all the women looked like they had bulimia. Do people really want to look like this? Since when did any other look become too wussy or sexy to use? Where are the men who look like they are slender dashing swashbucklers and the amazonian women? And even if I'm playing a strong warrior can't I go with more average looking build? And where did all the old people go, everyone looks to be in their early twenties...

 

EDIT: Oh and no boob plate! You want it you already got tons of games catering to it, leave us wanting realistic armour with this one please..

 

Edited October 19, 2012 by FlintlockJazz

[Chabneruk]

As for the original OP I thought this article on the portrayal of women in Dishonoured might be a useful thing for the devs to read. It definitely matches my views on the whole 'sexism in fantasy games' angle. This is pretty much how it should be done. Not as a part of a male power fantasy (disturbing as that thought is) but a commentary on how sexism can both be damaging and pervasive in society.

 

http://www.themarysu...o-tell-a-story/

 

This is an interesting article and I agree - Dishonored treated the gender issue very well. Not only were most of the women in the game average-looking (and thus quite believable), the lore presented through dialogue and the heart showed the discrimination that was rampant amongst Dunwalls society - even if the had an empress! The brothel was quite good as well, as the women therein were not sex objects for the player to lust upon but rather tired, overworked and sick persons who clearly had their own concerns and problems. They all wore revealing clothes, but they were not "teh sexy". They were human beings. And when I used the heart on Callista and heard about her dream of becoming a whaler it was simply a great emotional moment (as they game gives out information rather scarce if you don't go looking for it)

 

In a lot of British mythology Elves are closer to demons and use beauty in a similar way to vampires. They are definitely not pleasant creatures. Pratchett has represented this in his work.

 

Yes, the Fae approach is kind of the "other" way to portray elves. The WoD used it as well with Changeling and DA:Fae. Although one must keep in mind that Tolkien also tried to construct an English mythology, choosing to electing the Fae/Elves to a higher ideal. In his early drafts - the Lost Tales - the elves are far more similar to classic Fae from fairytales and even in the silmarillion the elves show far more emotion - and negative emotion at that - than in the Lord of the Rings. But both have one thing in common: Unnatural, mystical beauty.

 

The goal of "realism" is not to make things like the real world but to construct a world that is consistent and logical.

 

Thats true. And I can't say it often enough: There should be physically beautiful women (according to our standards) in PE as well. They should NOT be the only ones, though - or the majority for that matter. Also, less physically beautiful women who are interesting because of the way they are written should play a bigger role than usual.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Chabneruk

[UncleBourbon]

A scenario like Edwin/edwina's would also be nice to see in the game, if only to inform the player of subtle views the NPCs might have when they suffer a reversal.

[Amused]

It is simply a bonus imo. Sad truth: Men will go for almost anything,

 

Now, that's sexism for you.

[Chabneruk]

It is simply a bonus imo. Sad truth: Men will go for almost anything,

 

Now, that's sexism for you.

 

A mild form which - given biological basics - is not far from the truth. But yeah, guilty.

 

It was meant to show why you don't need a 100% perfect woman to have manipulation bonuses when it comes to men, though. Don't forget the context