The End of The Beginning

[Kilroy_Was_Here]

Upset about a game mechanic/design decision you don't agree with?

 

I've got a three letter word for you: Emmm-oooh-dee-esss. MODS!

 

[Malkaven]

If they back out of it and play it safe. I will be very disappointed.

 

This is not how this Kickstarter should work. At all. It was about the Obsidian devs finally getting to do what they want to do without restrictions.

 

I agree with this. This is not how kickstarter should work except for the fact that Obsidian is going to receive over three times the amount they asked for. They haven't changed their original vision but expanded on it. Yet there is still money available to enhance their vision. The expansion/stretch goals is where people should have a little influence.

 

*edit* assuming ones "influence" doesn't interfere with the vision....

Edited October 16, 2012 by Malkaven

[IchigoRXC]

Upset about a game mechanic/design decision you don't agree with?

 

I've got a three letter word for you: Emmm-oooh-dee-esss. MODS!

 

 

That is a four letter word, but I completely agree

 

I am sure Obsidian now much better what will work with their game than we do. We can suggest things and moan, but their vision is what will bring this game to life. They are all hardcore gamers too, we need not fear.

[Wirdjos]

It's good to see people banding together and trying to keep this a safe place for the developers to share information. They shouldn't be afraid that half the community will flip out over any news that is not completely fleshed out. I also wanted to mention that I missed the whole dlux fiasco, as it apparently became, and I doubt I'm the only one.

 

I also liked DA2 alright, OP. I just think they took all the exaggerated critism from the first seriously and did exactly what the loudest fans were asking.

[Mrakvampire]

For the sake of the game though, I really hope it takes more than a few vocal whiners (even ones consided "high profile" like dlux) to make Obsidian back out of a good idea. Especially something as significant as how health or XP works.

 

Why do you think that these ideas are great in the first place?

I, for example, don't think that regenerating "health" is a good thing. And who is right?

[Wirdjos]

For the sake of the game though, I really hope it takes more than a few vocal whiners (even ones consided "high profile" like dlux) to make Obsidian back out of a good idea. Especially something as significant as how health or XP works.

 

Why do you think that these ideas are great in the first place?

I, for example, don't think that regenerating "health" is a good thing. And who is right?

 

I didn't think we were getting regenerating health at all. I thought the devs had come up with a system that allowed health to be more punishing than it has been in most games I've played while allowing enough leeway to keep the game flowing smoothly. Did I miss a comment somewhere? I have been known to.

[Piccolo]

For the sake of the game though, I really hope it takes more than a few vocal whiners (even ones consided "high profile" like dlux) to make Obsidian back out of a good idea. Especially something as significant as how health or XP works.

 

Why do you think that these ideas are great in the first place?

I, for example, don't think that regenerating "health" is a good thing. And who is right?

I've seen a similar stamina/health system in other games, and it's worked well.

 

The people who have the biggest problem with it don't seem to understand how it works.

[Ieo]

For the sake of the game though, I really hope it takes more than a few vocal whiners (even ones consided "high profile" like dlux) to make Obsidian back out of a good idea. Especially something as significant as how health or XP works.

 

Why do you think that these ideas are great in the first place?

I, for example, don't think that regenerating "health" is a good thing. And who is right?

 

(1) Consider what the mechanism is trying to address.

(2) Consider the mechanism in relation to other mechanisms in combat.

 

There you go with your vacuum thinking. (This is exactly why there's pointless hysteria on the forums about this/cooldowns/etc....)

Edited October 16, 2012 by Ieo

[Mrakvampire]

I've seen a similar stamina/health system in other games, and it's worked well.

 

I'm sure, that you can provide some examples.

 

 

There you go with your vacuum thinking. (This is exactly why there's pointless hysteria on the forums about this/cooldowns/etc....)

 

I don't like when criticism is called 'vacuum thinking' and 'hysteria'.

It's job of Obsidian to explain their 'revolutionary ideas' to me, not my job to believe them as if they were Jesus Christ. I've seen good ideas in their games, and I've seen bad ones. And after that they stated that they want to give us 'old-good' IWD + BG + PST, I think, that they should at least explain themselves when they do something, that even remotely doesn't resemble 'old-good' IWD + BG + PST.

 

Right now my understanding is that (based on Obsidian comments) Stamina will be hurt during combat in majority of hist greatly, that character's HP and only special moves (like crits, or really powerfull blows) will damage HP. And stamina will regenerate. They think that this sistem will allow to deal with 'sleep spam' and 'damage from mooks/weak foes'.

I think that this is wrong. If you want to deal with 'sleep spam' make it punishing to sleep (random encounters, tickling time to finish quest), etc.

There is 1 million plus 1 ways to deal with all this in-game, without altering game mechanics.

[Amentep]

I've seen a similar stamina/health system in other games, and it's worked well.

 

I'm sure, that you can provide some examples.

 

I've not played it, but DARKLANDS (MicroProse 1992) is cited by Josh as the inspiration for the health/stamina combo (there's some debate as to whether the mechanic to restore stamina is similar to, or faster, than Darklands).

[Mrakvampire]

I've not played it, but DARKLANDS (MicroProse 1992) is cited by Josh as the inspiration for the health/stamina combo (there's some debate as to whether the mechanic to restore stamina is similar to, or faster, than Darklands).

 

Ok, so you haven't played it, but nevertheless think that it's a good game and good mechanic. Okay.

Then let me tell you one thing - I haven't played it either and I even don't know what is this game about. But I played all IE games that Obsidian use as an example of what they want to do, and they wanted us to believe, that they will do it right way. And I was 100% sure, that they will keep their promise. Right now, I'm only 90% sure and my faith can be pushed only so far, you know.

[Aedelric]

One person, who in general I had no dealings with no longer backing a project I quite like. Why should I care about that? Do not let the door hit you on the way out.

 

Personally once the Kickstarter is over I will likely frequent the forums less, partly because their will be less happening in regards to development news and secondly due to my desire to avoid spoilers for when the game is finally released.

[Wirdjos]

I've not played it, but DARKLANDS (MicroProse 1992) is cited by Josh as the inspiration for the health/stamina combo (there's some debate as to whether the mechanic to restore stamina is similar to, or faster, than Darklands).

 

Ok, so you haven't played it, but nevertheless think that it's a good game and good mechanic. Okay.

Then let me tell you one thing - I haven't played it either and I even don't know what is this game about. But I played all IE games that Obsidian use as an example of what they want to do, and they wanted us to believe, that they will do it right way. And I was 100% sure, that they will keep their promise. Right now, I'm only 90% sure and my faith can be pushed only so far, you know.

 

Darklands is $5.99 on GOG.com. I don't know anything more about it than you do, but there it is at least. I understand that any news of the developers possibly going in a different direction than the IE games that they advertised P:E as being based on might be alarming. But you do have to remember that it is only based on the IE games and designed with those games in mind, it will not be a direct clone of an IE game. Like you mentioned in your previous post, this is one way to fix the sleep spaming issue. You might agree with the move, you might not. But it was explained to you that the health/stamina system had been used before successfully. The only way that you will know if you agree with that is if you play a game that used it.

[Piccolo]

I've not played it, but DARKLANDS (MicroProse 1992) is cited by Josh as the inspiration for the health/stamina combo (there's some debate as to whether the mechanic to restore stamina is similar to, or faster, than Darklands).

 

Ok, so you haven't played it, but nevertheless think that it's a good game and good mechanic. Okay.

Then let me tell you one thing - I haven't played it either and I even don't know what is this game about. But I played all IE games that Obsidian use as an example of what they want to do, and they wanted us to believe, that they will do it right way. And I was 100% sure, that they will keep their promise. Right now, I'm only 90% sure and my faith can be pushed only so far, you know.

Play Darklands.

[Ink Blot]

Right now my understanding is that (based on Obsidian comments) Stamina will be hurt during combat in majority of hist greatly, that character's HP and only special moves (like crits, or really powerfull blows) will damage HP. And stamina will regenerate. They think that this sistem will allow to deal with 'sleep spam' and 'damage from mooks/weak foes'.

I think that this is wrong. If you want to deal with 'sleep spam' make it punishing to sleep (random encounters, tickling time to finish quest), etc.

There is 1 million plus 1 ways to deal with all this in-game, without altering game mechanics.

 

The Health/Stamina mechanic itself I'm neutral on. I don't feel it's that radical a difference from just straight HPs. All it means is that you hvae a couple of HP pools to watch with Stamina being the most important in the short term.

 

What I don't understand is how they think it will prevent rest-spamming. If people are obsessed with having full health, they'll just rest to regain it after a battle anyway, regardless of whether it's a single HP pool or a combined Health/Stamina pool.

 

Anyway, as an aside for those discussing the Xp for kills mechanic that prompted dlux's departure, here's what Feargus said about it this morning:

 

The XP for kills thing is still an ongoing discussion here. Our goal is to make this a game that is reminiscent of the IE games and in my mind that does mean XP for kills. We just need to balance with other systems.

 

 

I'm currently trying to sift through the pages and pages of Q&A on the KS Comments section, so I hope to have a full Q&A update soon.

 

Oh, and I just noticed Feargus says this about the Health/Stamina:

 

I was on the fence about the Stamina / Health thing as well. My thought on it right now is that it is worth implementing (not a ton of work) and then we can see how it feels. If it doesn't feel good, then we will change or pull it.

[Uomoz]

Obisidian, please, do whatever you want.

[Eryss]

It's the same with everything. The health system, the experience system, nothing is set in stone. They'll try things and if they don't work, it'll be changed. That's what iteration is for.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Eryss

[Amentep]

I've not played it, but DARKLANDS (MicroProse 1992) is cited by Josh as the inspiration for the health/stamina combo (there's some debate as to whether the mechanic to restore stamina is similar to, or faster, than Darklands).

 

Ok, so you haven't played it, but nevertheless think that it's a good game and good mechanic. Okay.

 

I didn't say I thought it was a good game or good mechanic. I happen to think it to be a good mechanic since I came up with a similar idea independently when discussing possible ways to handle combat several years ago and had mentioned it again recently.

 

You wanted examples; Darklands has been a fairly well regarded RPG since I first came back to computer gaming and joined the old BIS boards. Josh in particular has remarked on the game as being a good one, so its not surprising that it'd be looked at for some inspiration. Most people who I've talked to regard it as a good example of the kind of mechanics Obsidian is talking about.

 

Then let me tell you one thing - I haven't played it either and I even don't know what is this game about. But I played all IE games that Obsidian use as an example of what they want to do, and they wanted us to believe, that they will do it right way. And I was 100% sure, that they will keep their promise. Right now, I'm only 90% sure and my faith can be pushed only so far, you know.

 

YMMV but for me they listed they wanted to pay homage to the Infinity Engine games. They don't have the D&D license (or, for that matter, a license for the actual Infinity Engine). They listed Fallout, Arcanum, TOEE, NWN2, FONV in various bits and bobs about the project early on. So for me, I never felt that this would be "IE Games part 2: The Return". I can, however, certainly understand everyone else reading their own interpretation - just as I have - into what they've said about the game.

[Mrakvampire]

Oh, and I just noticed Feargus says this about the Health/Stamina:

 

I was on the fence about the Stamina / Health thing as well. My thought on it right now is that it is worth implementing (not a ton of work) and then we can see how it feels. If it doesn't feel good, then we will change or pull it.

 

I just don't really understand them (Obsidian) anymore.

We will spend our time and effort to implement a fix to the system that is not broken, and if this new artificial system of splitting HPs to two pools (one of them regenerating!) will not feel like IE, we will change or remove it, basically we will again effort and time to remove it and rebalance all abilities and spell to old system.

 

Guys. Seriously. Please do not fix that is not broken. Use your time on balance, story and quality of your product. Do not experiment.

[Mrakvampire]

YMMV but for me they listed they wanted to pay homage to the Infinity Engine games. They don't have the D&D license (or, for that matter, a license for the actual Infinity Engine). They listed Fallout, Arcanum, TOEE, NWN2, FONV in various bits and bobs about the project early on. So for me, I never felt that this would be "IE Games part 2: The Return". I can, however, certainly understand everyone else reading their own interpretation - just as I have - into what they've said about the game.

 

I don't really know what to say. Fallout, Arcanum and TOEE were mentioned only once. As a example of RPGs of their studio. But I don't want to argue with you about it. As recent poll here showed a lot of people even don't want PE to be fantasy. I don't know, maybe they went here by mistake...

 

P.S. And btw. D&D license has nothing with changing core concepts of game mechanic.

[Kai]

I like concept of stamina+health, makes more sense than a regular health bar which I think is a rather clumsy way of displaying the well being of a character. It also leaves you with a better option to knock people unconsious than beating them down to 1hp as I've seen in some games.

 

And as for tactics in fighting, I can kinda see how if you face e.g. 5 enemies, knock one unconsious, go on and attack the rest or use something like power attack to kill off the unconsious enemy. Assuming you get a huge hit bonus on unconsious enemies, which I think makes sense.

[Wirdjos]

Oh, and I just noticed Feargus says this about the Health/Stamina:

 

I was on the fence about the Stamina / Health thing as well. My thought on it right now is that it is worth implementing (not a ton of work) and then we can see how it feels. If it doesn't feel good, then we will change or pull it.

 

I just don't really understand them (Obsidian) anymore.

We will spend our time and effort to implement a fix to the system that is not broken, and if this new artificial system of splitting HPs to two pools (one of them regenerating!) will not feel like IE, we will change or remove it, basically we will again effort and time to remove it and rebalance all abilities and spell to old system.

 

Guys. Seriously. Please do not fix that is not broken. Use your time on balance, story and quality of your product. Do not experiment.

 

I believe you disagree with Obsidian on the bolded point. The message I've been recieving is that they do believe the rest system to be broken. I agree that there are many different ways of fixing this issue, they have simply (and only currently) chosen this one way of fixing it. Either way, and please people correct me if I'm misreading, they do think the system is broken.

[Ink Blot]

 

I just don't really understand them (Obsidian) anymore.

We will spend our time and effort to implement a fix to the system that is not broken, and if this new artificial system of splitting HPs to two pools (one of them regenerating!) will not feel like IE, we will change or remove it, basically we will again effort and time to remove it and rebalance all abilities and spell to old system.

 

Guys. Seriously. Please do not fix that is not broken. Use your time on balance, story and quality of your product. Do not experiment.

 

I understand your concern and to some extent, I share it. But, they never said they wanted to make the game exactly like the old IE games. And there's always room for improvement, so I think they need to take some leeway to experiment with some systems to see if what they envision is actually going to improve the game experience.

[Mrakvampire]

I like concept of stamina+health, makes more sense than a regular health bar which I think is a rather clumsy way of displaying the well being of a character. It also leaves you with a better option to knock people unconsious than beating them down to 1hp as I've seen in some games.

 

And as for tactics in fighting, I can kinda see how if you face e.g. 5 enemies, knock one unconsious, go on and attack the rest or use something like power attack to kill off the unconsious enemy. Assuming you get a huge hit bonus on unconsious enemies, which I think makes sense.

 

Maybe instead of introducing a whole new system there is a way to introduce some special powers/strikes to make people unconsious?

What you are saying is basically the same as in order to heal a man from flu to suggest removal of his hands and implanting tentacles instead, that generate anti-flu elements to the body.

[Mrakvampire]

Either way, and please people correct me if I'm misreading, they do think the system is broken.

 

Rest system don't have anything in common with HP system.