Update #24: Less than 30 Hours to go! Life and Death, and Audio CD Soundtrack!

[Providence]

It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

 

And this health bar (that receives the vast majority of damage) regenerates on its own even during combat.

If that's not enough, we have warriors spamming adrenaline rushes to replenish their stamina, paladins inducing stamina regeneration for all companions and priests doing all of this, but on steroids, for the entire party.

[Tamerlane]

I'm quite impressed that reading seems to be such a problem. Tamerlane got it right. You will still need to rest to "cure" health dmg which u will take with each hit taken. They additionally said that running around with low health but full stamina will get u killed.

One of the reasons why they would like to implement the stamina bar is that they want to reduce the need to rest after each battle to heal back up to full health.

I guess we will just have to wait and see how their idea works out in the _actual_ game. Don't misread their idea's/answers and spread those false interpretations. With our pledges we've put our faith in them - let's keep it that way and believe that they'll deliver a great game!

 

Reading's not a problem. It's a very simple system. Health A and Health B. Just because they call one health bar "Stamina" doesn't make it functionally something different.

 

The "Stamina" bar performs the same function as a Health bar, just because there's a backup Health bar doesn't make the first one anything different. At some stage, why even bother having either bar, just remove them both since we're going to remove inconviences. If clicking a rest button is so inconvient that we'll design it out, why not take the next logical step and design out Health entirely, because it's inconvient to have someone fall unconcious.

 

We don't really need to wait and see how this works out, there's really no mystery here. It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

And yet, you still aren't reading.

 

Both bars run simultaneously. Both bars take damage simultaneously. You can have full stamina and still be a stubbed toe away from dying.

[Ieo]

It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

 

And this health bar (that receives the vast majority of damage) regenerates on its own even during combat.

If that's not enough, we have warriors spamming adrenaline rushes to replenish their stamina, paladins inducing stamina regeneration for all companions and priests doing all of this, but on steroids, for the entire party.

 

Hysterical hyperbole with no interpretive basis.

 

Where you people are getting this stuff... must be a hard smoke.

[Tamerlane]

I'd just like to point out that over the last two pages, the complaint has shifted from "Combat is too punitive!" to "There aren't enough consequences for combat!"

 

I love gamers.

[Providence]

I'm quite impressed that reading seems to be such a problem. Tamerlane got it right. You will still need to rest to "cure" health dmg which u will take with each hit taken. They additionally said that running around with low health but full stamina will get u killed.

One of the reasons why they would like to implement the stamina bar is that they want to reduce the need to rest after each battle to heal back up to full health.

I guess we will just have to wait and see how their idea works out in the _actual_ game. Don't misread their idea's/answers and spread those false interpretations. With our pledges we've put our faith in them - let's keep it that way and believe that they'll deliver a great game!

 

Reading's not a problem. It's a very simple system. Health A and Health B. Just because they call one health bar "Stamina" doesn't make it functionally something different.

 

The "Stamina" bar performs the same function as a Health bar, just because there's a backup Health bar doesn't make the first one anything different. At some stage, why even bother having either bar, just remove them both since we're going to remove inconviences. If clicking a rest button is so inconvient that we'll design it out, why not take the next logical step and design out Health entirely, because it's inconvient to have someone fall unconcious.

 

We don't really need to wait and see how this works out, there's really no mystery here. It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

And yet, you still aren't reading.

 

Both bars run simultaneously. Both bars take damage simultaneously. You can have full stamina and still be a stubbed toe away from dying.

 

One bar takes negligible amounts of damage compared to the other. The other takes the rest (of the damage) and regenerates rapidly. Fun and intuitive system...

 

Sure, you can die, after getting pummeled by 10 angry ogres 20 times.

[Tamerlane]

I agree. It does sound fun and intuitive.

 

I'm glad we've come to an agreement.

[Ieo]

I'd just like to point out that over the last two pages, the complaint has shifted from "Combat is too punitive!" to "There aren't enough consequences for combat!"

 

I love gamers.

 

Oh god, you're right.

 

(1) No healz?! No rezzes, and possibility for maiming or permadeath?! WTF and with objective xp only, why bother with combat!

 

(2) OMG stamina bar regens in combat and classes can spam soul powaz to heal it? NERF

 

 

And this, folks, is why mechanisms shouldn't be discussed in a vacuum.

[Providence]

It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

 

And this health bar (that receives the vast majority of damage) regenerates on its own even during combat.

If that's not enough, we have warriors spamming adrenaline rushes to replenish their stamina, paladins inducing stamina regeneration for all companions and priests doing all of this, but on steroids, for the entire party.

 

Hysterical hyperbole with no interpretive basis.

 

Where you people are getting this stuff... must be a hard smoke.

 

It's ironic that you talk about hysteria.

If you were able to read, you'd read some informations that have been presented regarding this system before commenting with such an impetus and ignorance.

 

-Stamina regenerates on its own even in combat.

-Warriors can self heal stamina.

-Paladins can replenish stamina of party members and so can Priests and/or Wizards.

[MaximKat]

One bar takes negligible amounts of damage compared to the other. The other takes the rest (of the damage) and regenerates rapidly. Fun and intuitive system...

 

Sure, you can die, after getting pummeled by 10 angry ogres 20 times.

Because we all know that anything the devs make will be completely boring, unintuitive and unbalanced, right? Wait, why did anyone even support this Kickstarter?

[Ieo]

It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

 

And this health bar (that receives the vast majority of damage) regenerates on its own even during combat.

If that's not enough, we have warriors spamming adrenaline rushes to replenish their stamina, paladins inducing stamina regeneration for all companions and priests doing all of this, but on steroids, for the entire party.

 

Hysterical hyperbole with no interpretive basis.

 

Where you people are getting this stuff... must be a hard smoke.

 

It's ironic that you talk about hysteria.

If you were able to read, you'd read some informations that have been presented regarding this system before commenting with such an impetus and ignorance.

 

-Stamina regenerates on its own even in combat.

-Warriors can self heal stamina.

-Paladins can replenish stamina of party members and so can Priests and/or Wizards.

 

So where does the "spamming" and "steroids" come in? You're claiming that devs have said all of those things can be spammed ad infinitum in a battle to heal a party to full, as a standard.

[jvempire]

I'm quite impressed that reading seems to be such a problem. Tamerlane got it right. You will still need to rest to "cure" health dmg which u will take with each hit taken. They additionally said that running around with low health but full stamina will get u killed.

One of the reasons why they would like to implement the stamina bar is that they want to reduce the need to rest after each battle to heal back up to full health.

I guess we will just have to wait and see how their idea works out in the _actual_ game. Don't misread their idea's/answers and spread those false interpretations. With our pledges we've put our faith in them - let's keep it that way and believe that they'll deliver a great game!

 

Reading's not a problem. It's a very simple system. Health A and Health B. Just because they call one health bar "Stamina" doesn't make it functionally something different.

 

The "Stamina" bar performs the same function as a Health bar, just because there's a backup Health bar doesn't make the first one anything different. At some stage, why even bother having either bar, just remove them both since we're going to remove inconviences. If clicking a rest button is so inconvient that we'll design it out, why not take the next logical step and design out Health entirely, because it's inconvient to have someone fall unconcious.

 

We don't really need to wait and see how this works out, there's really no mystery here. It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

Well first your claim was that health can't be hurt during combat, which it wrong because both health and stamina can be damaged. Stamina is regenerating, this is what they've said, no mystery there. As for the point of having these two bars, as it says in the update the point of stamina is that it's easy to gain and lose but if you run out of it the character falls unconcious. This means they are vulnerable, which they can lose more of their health, and/or the enemy moves on to one of your other party members. Instead of just having health, this creates a little more tactics to the combat. You regen all the stamina after combat because the point of it is specific to combat.

Edited October 16, 2012 by jvempire

[Providence]

One bar takes negligible amounts of damage compared to the other. The other takes the rest (of the damage) and regenerates rapidly. Fun and intuitive system...

 

Sure, you can die, after getting pummeled by 10 angry ogres 20 times.

Because we all know that anything the devs make will be completely boring, unintuitive and unbalanced, right? Wait, why did anyone even support this Kickstarter?

 

Yeah, Obisidan is known for making great role-playing combat systems. How do we dare to question, HOW?

I don't know, 65 000 is not a small number, but big games sell millions of copies. We shall see.

 

It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

 

And this health bar (that receives the vast majority of damage) regenerates on its own even during combat.

If that's not enough, we have warriors spamming adrenaline rushes to replenish their stamina, paladins inducing stamina regeneration for all companions and priests doing all of this, but on steroids, for the entire party.

 

Hysterical hyperbole with no interpretive basis.

 

Where you people are getting this stuff... must be a hard smoke.

 

It's ironic that you talk about hysteria.

If you were able to read, you'd read some informations that have been presented regarding this system before commenting with such an impetus and ignorance.

 

-Stamina regenerates on its own even in combat.

-Warriors can self heal stamina.

-Paladins can replenish stamina of party members and so can Priests and/or Wizards.

 

So where does the "spamming" and "steroids" come in? You're claiming that devs have said all of those things can be spammed ad infinitum in a battle to heal a party to full, as a standard.

 

Dear, if rapid auto-regeneration of stamina during combat (the thing that will absorb the vast majority of damage) doesn't ring an "issue bell" in your head, a thorough examination of it is in order.

[Cantousent]

I honestly believe, which is to say that I've read the description and examples Sawyer gave us, that the combat mechanic will be so intuitive once folks start using it that most of the grief will fade away. Now, I will say that some of the complaints that folks have about it will remain, not the easy/hard arguments, but the general mechanic arguments. The fact is, in DnD, you could spam the hell out of heal spells. In this case, you can spam stamina heal spells, but you *can't* spam health healing spells, and for that reason combat will have the potential to be a hell of a lot more brutal and securing places for safe resting will be a major strategic concern.

[Gorth]

I think Bobby Null is going to spend many long nights doing overtime to make up for all those dungeon levels

[Ieo]

It's a regenerating health bar called "Stamina".

 

And this health bar (that receives the vast majority of damage) regenerates on its own even during combat.

If that's not enough, we have warriors spamming adrenaline rushes to replenish their stamina, paladins inducing stamina regeneration for all companions and priests doing all of this, but on steroids, for the entire party.

 

Hysterical hyperbole with no interpretive basis.

 

Where you people are getting this stuff... must be a hard smoke.

 

It's ironic that you talk about hysteria.

If you were able to read, you'd read some informations that have been presented regarding this system before commenting with such an impetus and ignorance.

 

-Stamina regenerates on its own even in combat.

-Warriors can self heal stamina.

-Paladins can replenish stamina of party members and so can Priests and/or Wizards.

 

So where does the "spamming" and "steroids" come in? You're claiming that devs have said all of those things can be spammed ad infinitum in a battle to heal a party to full, as a standard.

 

Dear, if rapid auto-regeneration of stamina during combat (the thing that will absorb the vast majority of damage) doesn't ring an "issue bell" in your head, a thorough examination of it is in order.

 

Not to the hyperbolic extent that you framed it. If you were able to read, main health is still hit, so it's not immune while stamina is super-charging; "help" regen isn't necessarily the same as regen to full. Your squeaking sounds exactly like the cooldown spamming hysteria before.

 

Edit: And judging by your sarcastic drama in the poll thread--yes, that's a good helping of hysteria.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Ieo

[Volourn]

"The fact is, in DnD, you could spam the hell out of heal spells."

 

Only if the DM/designer fails.

[ShadowFighter88]

Yeah, the talk about regen Stamina making things easy seems a bit much. Look at it like this - without taking the time to rest and recover your health (which'll probably require finding a safe and secure place, not to mention the actual time it could take to recover - which could be a pain for any time-sensitive quests) you could be at full Stamina but with only 3 health remaining.

 

Now remember Sawyer's example with the fighter? Namely how he took a lot of Stamina damage and about 5 Health damage? What do you think would happen if that fighter only had 3 Health when hit by those attacks?

Edited October 16, 2012 by ShadowFighter88

[Cantousent]

"The fact is, in DnD, you could spam the hell out of heal spells."

 

Only if the DM/designer fails.

I don't know, Vol. Seems to me that 3.x pretty much made DnD a lot easier to heal. There were the usual potions and whatnot, but also automatic conversion to cure spells and the like. I mean, it doesn't sound necessarily that different in PE in regards to healing except that healing spells in PE don't actually 'heal' so much as bolster you. I'm telling you right now, the system actually has the potential for being a hell of a lot uglier than just straight hit points. That's my take. I guess we'll have to wait until we get our hands on the game and can test everything.

[Gatt9]

Yeah, the talk about regen Stamina making things easy seems a bit much. Look at it like this - without taking the time to rest and recover your health (which'll probably require finding a safe and secure place, not to mention the actual time it could take to recover - which could be a pain for any time-sensitive quests) you could be at full Stamina but with only 3 health remaining.

 

Now remember Sawyer's example with the fighter? Namely how he took a lot of Stamina damage and about 5 Health damage? What do you think would happen if that fighter only had 3 Health when hit by those attacks?

 

Reverse your example. What would happen if he had 3 stamina when hit by those attacks? Same general result. Health bar A hit 0.

[Providence]

Not to the hyperbolic extent that you framed it. If you were able to read, main health is still hit, so it's not immune while stamina is super-charging; "help" regen isn't necessarily the same as regen to full. Your squeaking sounds exactly like the cooldown spamming hysteria before.

 

Edit: And judging by your sarcastic drama in the poll thread--yes, that's a good helping of hysteria.

 

So I'll help you with an example so you can more easily grasp the issues.

 

Ieo is a priest with 40 stamina and 40 health. The ogre hits him in the head repeatedly every 3 seconds for 10 stamina and 2 health damage.

Stamina quickly regenerates, let's say something like 2 points per second (not counting stamina-replenishing abilities).

 

In 3 seconds Ieo would regenerate 6 stamina, so he'd lose only 4 stamina every 3 seconds IF the ogre hits him every time, which is not likely. It would take a whole lot of time for him to reach 0 stamina or hp. He could run away from the encounter to chill a bit and regain stamina and then return to the fight. Health is not a huge tactical issue as it gets damaged much slower (Sawayer's example: 25:5, 20:4, 5:1).

[ShadowFighter88]

Well in the example with 3 Health, the fighter would be maimed or dead (depending on options and difficulty) because his health would hit 0 after the five health damage from Sawyer's example is applied.

 

If he had three stamina, I imagine that any left-over Stamina damage would be applied as Health damage (on top of any Health damage the attack already had). Granted, I don't know if that's what the devs'll do but it's what I'd do and I've seen similar in some pen-and-paper systems. Even if that excess Stamina damage is gone, you've still got a fighter who'll be out of the fight for a little while.

[Tamerlane]

I ****ing love making up numbers!

[Cantousent]

That's simply untrue. If you have three stamina and you're taken to zero, you fall unconcious and can be revived, even in combat. If you have three health and you're taken to zero, you're either maimed (the specifics of which are still unclear) or dead. Stamina is not a shield for health. It is a separate stat altogether. It is, from what I can tell, depleted independently. It makes combat more complicated, but it also really has a profound impact on resting.

[RaulDuke]

Most games that I played in this genre had many random encounters, particularly when exploring. When you remove the reward for combat (most mundane combat encounters do not generate loot anyone would care about, some rusty swords that are too heavy to carry around) you make it a tedious chore that will ultimately be avoided.

Consequently, when I go to explore areas, without an experience incentive I will just try to avoid the combat entirely, or quickly grow bored if I cannot. Maybe this game will be better, maybe every single seemingly random encounter will be part of a larger quest, or will have lovingly crafted loot that will make you want to fight just to get it. Maybe there will be no combat that is not part of a quest (and probably therefore not much combat). If there is no experience for fighting then every violent encounter had better be part of a quest.

Presenting the decision to remove xp for killing as a solution to people gaming the system is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, surely some solution could be found to those rare cases that would still leave there being some motivation for combat at times, since the combat system is probably a very big part of the design. There has to be a way to not award experience for killing a quest giver, or simply check and if experience has already been awarded for peaceful resolution, change the experience for killing the people in question to 0.

 

Simply put quest experience and combat experience together would be the best in my opinion.

 

Also, I love the stamina and health ideas.

Edited October 16, 2012 by RaulDuke

[Tale]

Stamina quickly regenerates, let's say something like 2 points per second (not counting stamina-replenishing abilities).

Did you just make that up?

 

Has Sawyer said anything about Stamina regenerating quickly or anywhere near those numbers comparable to damage? Where it would take an Ogre 5 hits with a successful hit every round to down a fighter?