Help me decide to back this project

[norolim]

Weight limit is a must. Period. I can't imagine an orlan character running around with 10 greatswords, 5 full plate armors and 2 balistas in their backpack.

Edited October 15, 2012 by norolim

[KhaineGB]

3. We will have weight in our inventory system,

Aaahh, no, no, no.

 

Considering every single RPG I've ever played has this, I don't get why you're complaining.

 

Even the pen'n'paper games have a weight system for encumbrance.

I don't know about PnP, but if every single cRPG you played has a weight system, then you played too few. Which either way, is not the point.

 

BG, BG2, IWD, PS:T, NWN, NWN2, Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout: BOS, Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, Mass Effect Series (though this didn't have weight, it had limited slots), Dragon Age...

 

Also played KotoR and KotoR2, but don't remember if they have the weight system or not.

 

Ok, slightly wrong on every RPG having the weight system, but 90% of them do. Even Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim has the weight system. Those are just the ones I've played.

[kenup]

3. We will have weight in our inventory system,

Aaahh, no, no, no.

 

Considering every single RPG I've ever played has this, I don't get why you're complaining.

 

Even the pen'n'paper games have a weight system for encumbrance.

I don't know about PnP, but if every single cRPG you played has a weight system, then you played too few. Which either way, is not the point.

 

BG, BG2, IWD, PS:T, NWN, NWN2, Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout: BOS, Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, Mass Effect Series (though this didn't have weight, it had limited slots), Dragon Age...

 

Also played KotoR and KotoR2, but don't remember if they have the weight system or not.

 

Ok, slightly wrong on every RPG having the weight system, but 90% of them do. Even Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim has the weight system. Those are just the ones I've played.

You count the IE games' system as equal to bethesdas'? Which is the one I'm worrying about.....

 

DA had slots as well, not lbs. The KotORs and ME1 had no limit at all. My problem is not with the limit. The first fallouts(from which I played only the first) are the only ones with some logical weight system.

 

Read the OP.

Edited October 15, 2012 by kenup

[Exile2k4]

I've backed this Kickstarter for far more money than I'd generally pay for a game because I'm really interested to see the kind of game Obsidian make without pressure from the publisher. I've loved all of the games I've played that they've listed as being similar to their goal (for some reason I never got around to playing Planescape: Torment, although I plan to over the next few months). I've backed it because I'm confident that it will be a really, really good game, but it's important to note, it could be really, really bad. Either way, I'll feel the money I've donated to the project will be well spent because I'll have enjoyed following it, and I think it's really good to try and shift the current publisher/developer paradigm of how games are made away from the current low risk/mass market approach.

 

Obviously I'd like it if you backed it too, but if you're unsure about the kind of game they're going to make, or you feel that you need a specific element (outside of isometric party-based rpg) to be included otherwise the game will be ruined, I'd strongly suggest not backing it. The game will be released (hopefully...), and Obsidian will need/want people to buy it then - I'm sure there'll be a huge amount of in-depth reviews and forums, so figure out then whether the game's what you want it to be or not.

 

One last thing - not knocking the op, but suggesting something is an "afterthought" because it's part of a stretch goal is just wrong imo. An "afterthought" would be if Obsidian tried to cram it in after having made the rest of the game. They are in the very, very early stages of planning the game, and the stretch goals are just a part of that resource/planning process, arguably crossed with a marketing push to raise as much money for the project as they can, all hopefully to make the best game they can make.

 

So anyway, just back it already...

Edited October 15, 2012 by Exile2k4

[Rahelron]

I would really like if the crafting in project eternity wasn't just a way to create stuff to fill up your character's paperdoll. Crafting weapons, armors, rings, amulets, runes and potions is good, but it is limited.

 

What about creating a system that allows to use crafting to interact with the world?

 

I.E.: The player is wandering in a cave and finds a locked portal. He realizes that he can't open the portal without a ritual key (something like the dragon claws in skyrim). There are 2 possible solutions:

1- Find the original ritual key (which is hidden somewhere outside the dungeon... maybe in the treasure of a powerful monster).

2- Craft a copy of the ritual key! In this case the player has to buy or mine some plastic matrial, then make a cast of the "keyhole" and finally craft the new key with the right components (which he has to guess looking at the portal or stuff like that).

 

Having choices like this would improve the crafting system and the gameplay too!

[Kamos]

I'd like to thank everyone for their answers.

 

I don't know about PnP, but if every single cRPG you played has a weight system, then you played too few. Which either way, is not the point.

 

What is the point?

 

I understand that, when done wrong, inventories become busywork or tetris, and I don't think they should have weight/slots/realism "just because". Most games don't take the tactical side of inventories into consideration, and in this case it *is* an annoyance.

 

However, inventories can be a cool part of the game. You can have a character activate a pressure plate trap because he is carrying the 50kg idol he just looted. You can have characters that can't flee from fights because they decided to bring a little of everything. And so on.

 

I share most of the OP's concerns. Crafting in particular is something I kind of wished they would have left out. It's always something fans are going to ask for just because it seems like a cool feature, but honestly, I think it's a waste of time that often detracts from an RPG experience more than it adds to it.

 

2. We like giving the player the freedom to get his/her arse kicked if he/she ignores signs that say "Hey, you're not ready to be here yet!" and they try anyway. The trick is to communicate that information so the player knows an area, or a creature, is probably beyond his current level.

I hope such signs are going to be very subtle, and not always present. Certainly nothing that detracts from the believablity of the gameworld or holds the player's hand too much. I actually like it in RPGs when I can occasionally encounter enemies far beyond my character's own abilities by chance - not necessarily because i've deliberately ignored warnings and ran off into a dangerous area.

 

That might seem punitive or harsh by modern game standards, but I really don't feel as though I need to win every single encounter. Sometimes, running away should be the best option, especially at lower levels. Of course, escape shouldn't always be possible and a character's movement and evasive skills should be a factor, not just how quickly the player can react.

 

That's one of reasons why I prefer turn-based combat to real-time. Fleeing feels like a more natural and viable option with less interference from player skill/reactions and lock-on AI.

 

I like your idea of fleeing. It does feel more natural than coming across a subtle sign subtly saying "you're not supposed to be here! - yet". There is no place you're supposed to be; and if the game is fair, then it doesn't treat you like a special person, or like you're supposed to win. Dying horribly is the "show, rather than tell" way of teaching about a game world. It also makes the opposition more believable. But then again, I suppose it does become an annoyance if done wrong. As do so many things. But I think that Torment shows us that dying can be fun.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Kamos

[Hornet85]

I backed this project (and Wasteland 2) because its been a very long time since anyone made a great isometric crpg. As for the details of the game, I honestly am not worry about them because I trust Obsidian will know what's best for this game. I can't judge the details based on past experiences because I don't know how Obsidian plans on implementing them.

 

At the end of the day, when we back a project, its main reason has to be that we trust these guys in making another great isometric rpg game. Its hard to apply any science to it, we just have to go with our gut feeling.

[kenup]

I'd like to thank everyone for their answers.

 

I don't know about PnP, but if every single cRPG you played has a weight system, then you played too few. Which either way, is not the point.

 

What is the point?

 

I understand that, when done wrong, inventories become busywork or tetris, and I don't think they should have weight/slots/realism "just because". Most games don't take the tactical side of inventories into consideration, and in this case it *is* an annoyance.

Weight = lbs/kg/whatever. That's how I think it. I don't see inventory tetris or slots as weight. Read above, my problem is not the limit.

Edited October 15, 2012 by kenup

[kabaliero]

Ok, to help the TS:

 

Dude, u know all those fake rpgs in last 10 years?

The ones you always regretted payin' for?

Well, guess what!

That basically happens when publishers wanna get as many cash as possible and FAST.

(coughEAcough)

 

In case of Project Eternity, there ain't gonna be such baddies between the devs and the players.

So these talented guys are free to **** some serious **** up. In the best meaning of it.

 

Cheers.

Edited October 15, 2012 by kabaliero

[Kilroy_Was_Here]

Hey Bobby, just a question if you are still reading this. Were you a fan of Baldurs Gate 2 and Cromwell the smith? To be honest if you are going to include crafting I think assembling legendary items from various parts would be quite a cool way to do one aspect of it.

 

Bah! Cromwell was boring.

 

Bring back Cespenar!! 'Needs must I look through your belongings? Oooooooo... shiny ones!!!'

[Kamos]

3. We will have weight in our inventory system,

Aaahh, no, no, no.

 

Considering every single RPG I've ever played has this, I don't get why you're complaining.

 

Even the pen'n'paper games have a weight system for encumbrance.

I don't know about PnP, but if every single cRPG you played has a weight system, then you played too few. Which either way, is not the point.

 

BG, BG2, IWD, PS:T, NWN, NWN2, Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout: BOS, Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, Mass Effect Series (though this didn't have weight, it had limited slots), Dragon Age...

 

Also played KotoR and KotoR2, but don't remember if they have the weight system or not.

 

Ok, slightly wrong on every RPG having the weight system, but 90% of them do. Even Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim has the weight system. Those are just the ones I've played.

You count the IE games' system as equal to bethesdas'? Which is the one I'm worrying about.....

 

DA had slots as well, not lbs. The KotORs and ME1 had no limit at all. My problem is not with the limit. The first fallouts(from which I played only the first) are the only ones with some logical weight system.

 

Read the OP.

 

Oh, I thought this had been written by someone else.

 

Yeah, personally I feel that, if you're going to have a limit, it should also make sense. Actually, if the inventory is supposed to serve some purpose (other than being a big list of stuff), then it probably needs to make sense.

[Amentep]

One of the reasons why everyone feels they have to carry every looted armor is because money tends to be scarce early on then by the end you've got enough money to buy a small country. Like Brazil.

 

So honestly there's a couple of problems going on when this happens and not all of it is related directly to the inventory system itself (playing inventory Tetris is often just a symptom of trying to maximize the amount of money you can get so you buy that Silver Sword that allows you to beat the werewolves that you know about but can't beat because you need Silver weapons).

 

So really the best inventory has to look at a number of different problems in the game and find a way to solve it that makes sense and doesn't annoy the player.

[Kamos]

One of the reasons why everyone feels they have to carry every looted armor is because money tends to be scarce early on then by the end you've got enough money to buy a small country. Like Brazil.

 

So honestly there's a couple of problems going on when this happens and not all of it is related directly to the inventory system itself (playing inventory Tetris is often just a symptom of trying to maximize the amount of money you can get so you buy that Silver Sword that allows you to beat the werewolves that you know about but can't beat because you need Silver weapons).

 

So really the best inventory has to look at a number of different problems in the game and find a way to solve it that makes sense and doesn't annoy the player.

 

Certainly by small country you were talking of Liechtenstein, and not the seventh economy in the world?

 

Yeah, but I agree 100% with you. Trying to maximize the amount of money you can get by hauling every single item you find is just the sign of a dysfunctional element in the game elsewhere. Removing inventory limits is like cutting your leg off because your toe hurts.

[Hornet85]

One of the reasons why everyone feels they have to carry every looted armor is because money tends to be scarce early on then by the end you've got enough money to buy a small country. Like Brazil.

 

So honestly there's a couple of problems going on when this happens and not all of it is related directly to the inventory system itself (playing inventory Tetris is often just a symptom of trying to maximize the amount of money you can get so you buy that Silver Sword that allows you to beat the werewolves that you know about but can't beat because you need Silver weapons).

 

So really the best inventory has to look at a number of different problems in the game and find a way to solve it that makes sense and doesn't annoy the player.

A very good point

A game should not go to the point of being annoying.

 

Nevertheless, if I recalled correctly, many of the game parameters would be editable by a simple text edit, so perhaps if we don't like the inventory system we could tweak around with its limits and so on.

[Amentep]

One of the reasons why everyone feels they have to carry every looted armor is because money tends to be scarce early on then by the end you've got enough money to buy a small country. Like Brazil.

 

So honestly there's a couple of problems going on when this happens and not all of it is related directly to the inventory system itself (playing inventory Tetris is often just a symptom of trying to maximize the amount of money you can get so you buy that Silver Sword that allows you to beat the werewolves that you know about but can't beat because you need Silver weapons).

 

So really the best inventory has to look at a number of different problems in the game and find a way to solve it that makes sense and doesn't annoy the player.

 

Certainly by small country you were talking of Liechtenstein, and not the seventh economy in the world?

 

It was a joke for effect; sometimes I've ended up with so much money in RPGs I can't imagine there's any gold left in the world for anyone else to have a nugget, much less a gold coin for themselves!

[Darth Trethon]

I have to say though that it feels amazing to own the toughest of the toughest in-game enemies after you've done your math and the legwork to obtain the absolute best crafting materials with the desired and pre-determined effects. To discover that it is within YOUR power to be epic and craft things far greater than anything else in existence. So yeah, I think Obsidian should allow crafting to render insanely powerful things but it should not be easy to obtain the crafting materials necessary to do so.

 

And if the player wants to throw himself/herself at the toughest thing out there....why not? It should be insanely difficult but not impossible. Leave subtle ways for the player to outsmart and defeat the toughest things out there at low levels. The accomplishment feels great.

[Gecimen]

1) I watched an interview with Josh Sawyer where he mentions that some people expected Project Eternity to have crafting (without it even being a stretch goal), since it is something that cRPGs are "supposed to have" nowadays. I am very concerned that Obsidian might be adding this as an afterthought, as something that a game is "supposed to have" rather than a legitimate game element that is part of their vision.

 

Let me explain what I mean.

 

In pretty much every cRPG that comes to my mind, crafting is "a way to get cool gear" (that is actually how devs describe it). Which is to say, it adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay. Rather, I'd argue that, since it is often so poorly implemented mechanically, it detracts from the game by removing verisimilitude.

 

Further, crafting creates the need to "gather" from every bush, node and corpse you come across. That, in turn, results in characters lugging around every single thing they find. Because hey, it might be useful for... something.

 

Now, I can understand crafting in a game when it feels like it is part of the game world. Making bread in "Ultima 7" is one example. Making the bamboo flintlock in "Savage Empire" is another example. Arcanum also had something along that line, with "inventions" being integral to a technologist's development.

 

Has there been any word about which way crafting is going in Project Eternity?

 

No but we know that crafting will not be mandatory. In other words, if you somehow dislike the way crafting is implemented, you will not miss it. But if you feel like a cRPG is not complete without crafting, like me, you will have the chance to do it. Yet I trust obsidian to implement is as subtle as they can (i.e. not farming every bush) and make it worthwhile (unlike D3).

 

2) Some of my fondest memories with ye olde cRPGs is dying horribly to completely unbalanced battles / traps / challenges. Walking into the wasteland and getting owned by a patrol of super mutants immediately comes to my mind.

 

I can't stand games that auto-balance everything around you (from D&D 3rd edition to Oblivion). You may find it silly, but this is really a dealbreaker for me because it says volumes about the mindset in which the game was made. I know Fallout: New Vegas was a bit more unforgiving than FO3, so I guess my question is: can I expect PE to take off the kiddy gloves?

 

Super good point but it is already adressed. What you mean is "level scaling" (a system which automatically brings monsters to your level). There will not be ANY level scaling in P:E except a few very critical/dramatical key points ONLY UPWARDS. What does it mean? You will not be able to step over the last boss (if it exists) in case you levelled up a little too much. Unbalancedly hard encounters will be there.

 

3) Modern cRPGs have streamlined inventories to the point where they don't exist. Often, the inventory is a list of items, plus a weight limit just so that your inventory isn't absolutely everything you come across in the game. Seriously, this is poor design. But I suppose it was to be expected, since games have always encouraged players to do busywork by going back and forth hauling short bows and leather armors looted from kobolds.

 

However, I'd ask this: why were they hauling so much trash in the first place? Why is "adventuring" so disfunctional in cRPGs? You don't go adventuring for trash, you go adventuring for treasure!

 

In old school pen 'n paper RPGs, choosing what to bring with you was a big decision. Too little equipment and you'd be unprepared; too much and you wouldn't be able to run if things turned sour. Deciding how much food and lamp oil was a huge decision to make in dungeon crawls. Getting trapped by a sliding wall in a dungeon with no food is no laughing matter. Actually, any adventuring expedition worth its salt would hire NPCs for that single purpose: carrying things.

 

So, my third and final question is this: what kind of inventory will we see in PE? Will we at least have backpacks, as in Torment and BG, or are we going to have a list of stuff that enables hoarders to carry every single thing they come across?

 

Thank you for reading. I wasn't planning to write a wall of text, but it happened. Sorry.

 

Edit: trying to fix my wonky english.

 

Well I wouldn't want to carry trash around but it's what some "realistic" people ask for, every sword holder drops a sword and every sword has a value at a vendor. If it were me, if an item isn't good for anything other than vendoring, it should drop as gold in the first place. I don't know how it'll be handled but I sure wish it isn't something that puts me away from adventuring.

 

Well in the end you should back this project because either way it'll be an amazing game and you wont be comfortable without buying it.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Gecimen