On the Subject of Stats

[anubite]

First of all, I'm going to put this here, because it pertains from where I'm coming from, please take a moment to notice this game's passive skill tree and the ridiculous amount of freedom it offers:

 

http://www.pathofexi...ive-skill-tree/

 

Secondly, I'm going to state something I hope Obsidian is aware of:

 

Dragon Age 2 had an atrocious equipment, stat and character progression system.

 

1. Classes only had 2 useful stats to utilize

2. Equipment required each 2 high stats to be equipped. It would look something like this:

 

Wizard's Robe

Requires 12 Intelligence

Requires 12 Wisdom

 

If you were playing a mage in DA2, any and all equipment you would want to use would look like this. Meaning, when you level up in DA2, your only option is to add an equal amount of stat points to Int/Wis. You have no choice in the matter, or you cannot equip things you find.

 

This system is absolutely atrocious and doesn't make any sense. It means you cannot actually develop a character in the way you want. You are forced to distribute your stats in a manner the designers expected you to. This also means you could not make a mage character with high strength, or even unusually decent strength.

 

Path of Exile's stat sytem, however, is absolutely beautiful and perhaps, ideal.

 

1. There are only three stats (Str/Int/Agi) [this is not the ideal part, but simplicity does allow for easier balancing]

2. Stats confer weak increases (If you have 300 STR, which is quite a bit, you only get about 600 life and 60% increased physical melee damage, which isn't much in the game)

3. Stats are required to equip gear - but you need a marginal amount of a stat (an end-game piece of +armor equipment, intended for a Marauder/STR user, only requires between 120 and 160 STR), freeing up your distribution of stats, but forcing you to make decisions on what you wear

4. All stats are implicitly useful to all classes, at least to a certain degree (DEX gives evasion and accuracy, STR gives life and melee damage, INT gives mana and energy shield (another kind of life)); you may not want high amounts of all 3 stats for your class, but you could build a character from any of the 6 classes that utilizes large amounts of any 1 stat; there is no inherent reason not to take dex or str as a Witch, as they confer useful bonuses you can create a build from

 

To summarize: In Path of Exile, character development is skill-based and fluid. Attributes are a means to an end, but finding gear with high +DEX, even if you're a pure spell-caster, is not horrible! In-fact, it can be something a Witch might really want (due to how attributes are required to equip certain pieces of Witch-related gear).

 

I think my most fondest memories from the IE games is their flexibility of character development. You can pick a class, and kind of build it any way you want. Granted, Path of Exile lets you take a Marauder class and turn it virtually into a Witch class, so IE games were far more constricting than that - but even so - class and skill-based games need to allow for flexibility. Thus, I would like to outline three principals I hope Obsidian will follow through with, when balancing the game's core design:

 

1. All attributes can be useful to any class. Intelligence as a stat might raise mana, spell damage, and/or other mage-y things, but it might also raise critical strike chance or magic resistance. Not only that, but intelligence might be a core requirement to pick up a rare, legendary blade a melee class might want to utilize. Or, to get the most out of a melee figher's skill, it might require a high amount of intellect.

2. The point is: Classes should be able to hybridize. RPGs are often about min-maxing, but a good RPG allows players to successfully and "fairly" hybridize their characters. A "pure" class should be good, but there should be a convincing reason to play and utilize a hybrid class; they should not be "inferior" to pure classes just because. The best, most balanced way to do this, is simply to make hybrid vs pure classes different;not better or worse. There should be reasons why a hybrid melee-fighter spell-caster should cast spells and use melee attacks; there should be a reason for such a hybrid class to get as much spell damage and attack damage as they can, not focusing too much on either (though, perhaps a player should be allowed to build that way if they choose to).

3. Classes should have roles, boundaries, guidelines; but there should NEVER be a reason why you cannot or should not try to break these roles. A priest SHOULD be able to specialize as a warrior-fighter, and succeed in some manner. The extent the game allows a player to do this, the better.

4. Gear should be designed such that there is a variety for everyone. Gear for pure min/maxers, gear for hybrids, and gear for inbetween-ers.

 

What I think many of us find fun about CRPGs - at least one aspect of fun from them - is buliding characters and exploiting mechanics. People think they are having fun when they play the game their own way and find unusual ways to succeed. Please, give us as many options to customize our characters as much as possible. Let us make them unique. It should be an uncommon thing for two players to "wind up" with two identical parties and play-styles.

Edited October 14, 2012 by anubite

[Raedwulf]

Well, thinking of Baldur's Gate II the stat restrictions usually were reasonable. Like a strength of 18 needed to use a composite bow which offered a plus to damage or an intelligence of at least 9 to read a scroll or some good wisdom to get good results from the wish spell.

 

As PE should become the successor of Infinity Games and not Dragon Age I won't expect the problems you've stated.

 

In contrast to you, I do hope we get any of the well known stats --Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma-- but not a simplification.

[anubite]

Well, thinking of Baldur's Gate II the stat restrictions usually were reasonable. Like a strength of 18 needed to use a composite bow which offered a plus to damage or an intelligence of at least 9 to read a scroll or some good wisdom to get good results from the wish spell.

 

As PE should become the successor of Infinity Games and not Dragon Age I won't expect the problems you've stated.

 

In contrast to you, I do hope we get any of the well known stats --Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma-- but not a simplification.

 

Certainly, I don't want to imply that I think PE needs 3 stats, just that, the more stats you add, the harder it is to create a sublime system where all stats are useful to all classes, which I think it is something all RPGs should have. A warrior might want to stack only strength, but I feel it should be viable for a warrior to be exceptionally wise, and benefit in some manner because of it - while still functioning like a warrior should.

 

If all stats aren't useful to all classes, then suddenly, the challenge of min/maxing a character is reduced. Furthermore, the possible number of creative builds is reduced.

Edited October 14, 2012 by anubite

[Jesugandalf]

I agree with anubite, all stats should be important in any way to any type of character. It's logical that the most important stat for a mage is intelligence to remember spells and the most important skill for a rogue is dexterity to hide in shadows, pickpocket and open locks, but maybe a dexterous wizard could cast spells quicker and an intelligent rogue would be more successful when trying to hide in shadows or pickpocket.

 

I like the idea of having primary and secondary stats for each class, in a way that primary stats affect much more to the character's abilities than secondary, although the latter would perhaps be the difference in a given situation.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

All stats should be important to all characters. Also, equipment shouldn't be limited by an attribute, if anything, it should be limited by proficiency or something.

[khango]

I've never felt like the stats in IE games were horribly unreasonable, though I have found it obnoxious that's it's not always obvious what stats will nerf particularly classes. When I was a noob it was really not obvious that having 18 vs 16 int was really important for a mage because in most other types of PC games the relative impact of stats is lower than in D&D style RPGs.

[Mrakvampire]

Just stick to old-good Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. No to experiment! Yes to fine-tuning, balancing, deeper story, quality control!

[khango]

That Path of Exile stat thing seems really overwhelmingly complicated now that I've looked at it.

[Ninjamestari]

I agree with Mrakvampire, there's no need to experiment when there is a perfectly good system already in existence; it merely needs some fine tuning. The problem with every single character progression system in RPG's is the lack of fine tuning. The skill system of elder scrolls could've been magnificent, but it reeks because it wasn't executed properly. Anyone could see the flaws, but they just were ignored. D&D could be magnificent in a crpg, but it doesn't properly utilize the greater computing power, thus leaving simplified details (such as the way AC works) that were a necessity when playing with pen&paper, but only feel silly on computers. The Gothic series had a very simple yet functional character system, but it could have easily had a lot more depth making it actually interesting without sacrificing the simplicity that made it work.

 

Overly complex skill-jungles like that path to exile horror just don't work. Take a simple basic concept like D&D (it already has a lot of depth), and expand/improve upon it. Trying to reinvent the wheel is just plain stupid.

[MorganJha]

Speaking of statistics...

 

I think restraining the equipment that a character can use because of his stats is nonsense.

 

Indeed, why couldn't a warrior use a leather armor because he has low dexterity? It's just an armor and I think that he is totally able to put leather pieces on... Same thing for a wizard's staff. My rogue should be able to equip that staff, although he couldn't be smart enough to use its power, rendering it useless. A sorceress who has a full plate armor in her backpack should be able to wear it, even if she can't use the armor's full abilities. The full plate just doesn't become heavier because she tries to put it on.

 

In my opinion, all characters should be able to use all equipment but without the required stats (or training), they can not use it at its best or can not activate the powers bound to that equipment... And that is a flaw of d&d system.

[Umberlin]

I'm not entirely sure you should be looking at a dungeon crawler for ways in which to make stats in an RPG better. I find it a little distressing that people look at Path of Exile as see complication, when it's actually incredibly streamlined and straightforward. Sure, the tree itself is massive, but what is contained within it is incredibly simple. Simple and streamlined, blown up in a big branching of lines with little extras like spell damage, different elemental damages and such, but not really complicated once you get beyond the size of the thing. It effect many skills as well, such as: Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks that are used beyond the realm of the Wizard.

 

A smart, tactical Fighter wants intelligence as well - just the same you can make a Fighter built around dexterity, rather than Strength, if you so choose. Beyond the Wizard and Fighter you have the Thief, again, he wants intelligence. In fact any character that wants a good range of skills . . . wants intelligence. Yet, a character may purposely not want intelligence as well, even if it could be useful to them in some ways, because if it's too high . . . your character may not be the average joe, or the drunk dumb as a brick dwarf that you wanted to play as. Reasons to want it. Reasons to not want it. Reasons to invest casually in it. Reasons to invest heavily in it. Reasons to ignore it entirely.

 

A stat like Intelligence, in PnP, however, in itself, goes far beyond those very straight forward applications like increasing a mana pool. It has many applications. The number of languages your characters knows, the number of skill points gained each level, a wizard gains bonus spells on their intelligence score, and it will even effect how your character speaks (perhaps they come off as simple or very stupid at lower levels, maybe average or below average or slightly above average and of course smart or genius levels). But that's not all! It can effect whether your spells are resisted or not (as a Wizard) or even how powerful those spells can be.

 

You have that theme of, "not just useful to one, but useful to all" but you have that added layer of how it's useful beyond combat. You can tell when something is a mindless dungeon crawler when it's stats all refer to combat applications, and not a single application beyond that.

 

So, let us, for example, take the effect of intelligence on how you are perceived when you speak/act (let us say low intelligence, very dumb) but combine it with intelligence, which may be very high. Now take a character, say, John Coffey from The Green Mile. A man of simply intelligence, that many thought stupid, who, despite this, was very wise. And thus, while he could be percieved as dumb his advice could be sage.

 

This is a very important thing to understand, because it's why things like Mass Effect don't work as RPGs, because you can make almost any choice you want . . . and the only limiter for some options are their silly 'good' or 'evil' meter which allow you to choose special good or evil options (I know they aren't called that but it's still so black and white that I don't care). In an RPG, a real RPG, those statistics are what limits you. Why? Because otherwise you'd do anything you wanted to. The limiters of stats on conversation, movement, battle and everything are what force you to role-play. That is the most important thing about stats, that they make you play 'the character' you've built. If they're done right they trap you within their confines and force you to leave 'you' behind, so that it stops being about what 'you' would do, and instead is about what 'your character is capable of doing' no matter the circumstance.

 

-

 

Obviously P:E is not D&D, and the systems will be different, but I always prefered systems that made statistics 'more' than one liners. In a way P:E has already moved away from D&D with their note on Social stats, of a sort, but I still think it's worth pointing out why something, such as a Dungeon Crawler, are not a good reference point for a real RPG. And I know some people really like Dungeon Crawlers, that they like games like Path of Exile . . . but they are 'not' RPGs - no matter the mindless marketers that attach the label. Reference good RPGs for ideas on how to do stats right. Not dungeon crawlers. Not action RPGs, because, while they are a subgenre, they are not RPGs. Reference RPGs. Well done RPGs.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Umberlin

[DocDoomII]

Path of Exile is not a really good example.

The system is very interesting and challenging to manage, but that is the game. Manage the stats, since it's a Diablo clone Hack'n'Slash.

 

 

cRPGs, while still being about stats and leveling, are more about the story, exploration, interactions, actual questing and combat.

Hack'n'Slash are all about combat, stats, loot.

[Keldorn]

Although Project Eternity will not be D&D, I surely hope that the system will not differ too much. I love choosing between strength, dexterity, constitution, wisdom, intelligence and charisma because I feel this gives me much control over the way a character is.

 

Wanting fighters to benefit from intelligence is fine and all, but in the end a fighter does what he does - he fights. Sure, brute strength just makes him hit harder and sure, he also needs to fight well, but isn't that linked to weapon profiency, for example? Experience in fighting is not necessarily linked to intelligence or dexterity, for that matter. And talk about a fighter that is also a tactic expert? I think that's nonsense, because as I said - a fighter fights. Another character in the party can have a high intelligence to provide the party with tactical insight. A paladin, for example, is usually considered to be the tactical fighter because not only is he strong and healthy, he also is intelligent and charismatic.

 

I also think gear should be restricted to stats. A composite bow is huge and requires strength and profience to handle it, magical robes require intelligence to benefit from or use its magical stats and plate mail is heavy and limits movement and flexibility whereas leather armour is lighter and softer, which allows for more movement. Yes, in my opinion every class is allowed to wear every armour and use every weapon - but eventually mages will benefit much more from lighter armour which allows them to move their arms more easily for spells, and daggers, short/long swords and staves, since they are simply most commonly used by mages. Possibly also because they are not heavy in use, such as an axe or a bastard sword is.

[Umberlin]

cRPGs, while still being about stats and leveling, are more about the story, exploration, interactions, actual questing and combat.

 

Quite so.

[anubite]

That Path of Exile stat thing seems really overwhelmingly complicated now that I've looked at it.

 

It just looks complex. It's really not.

 

And I acknowledge cRPGs != aRPGs, but what's been missing from the following RPGs -

 

DA:O, DA2, DA:A, ME1-3, Gothic 4, KoA: Reckoning, Witcher 2, Skyrim

 

- Namely, any recent single player RPG -

 

- is the depth of character building.

 

Every RPG these days has emulated World of Warcraft.

 

World of Warcraft, even in its hybrid classes, has very narrow, well-defined class roles. You cannot stray too far from these predetermined character builds or you will be performing so sub-optimally, that the game will not be fun, or at least, nobody will let you have fun.

 

Path of Exile is an extreme example of breaking this trend, because it offers you 1000+ passives to pick from, or at least, you can create one of any thousand of skill combinations to define the character you make how you want. Said character is probably viable in its own unique way.

 

That's what I want. Of course, I don't want it so that any haphazard skill choice renders a good character, but I want the freedom to pick what stats I want, what equipment I want, and I want to have the choice to make and build and play my character as I see fit. I don't want to be shoe-horned into your class definition. I want to operate inside a class definition, but I don't want to be narrow defined in a role.

 

If I make a priest character, I should be able to make the priest into a melee fighter who can hold his own in melee combat, while still providing some kind of support role, either through heals or buffs. If I make a paladin character, they should be able to use a bow at least to some extent. I should be able to hybridize a character -- call this multiclassing if you want to -- but I shouldn't be laughed at for having an 18 intelligence warrior character. There should be items, skills, passives and mechanics in the game that allow a high-intelligence warrior to do something special - like constantly make critical strikes, or be good at dealing with mage-related enemies.

 

I want Obsidian to make it such that many things in the game scale.

 

I don't think it's fun to build a character, say a fighter, and always spend my attribute points in STR and CON because that's the only thing that works. I should be able to substitute my STR for INT and still perform some kind of a fighter role, while also being different.

 

Perhaps I can't articulate this too well without being overly specific, but in Path of Exile, you can start as a base Marauder class, have high life points, then specialize in magic, even though Marauders don't have many good opportunities to improve their spell damage - they can still improve their fire damage, and they're in a relatively good spot to get a second totem, meaning, a Marauder player can become a typical two-handed brute, or they can become some kind of a fire-Shaman character. Both builds are viable in their own way and you can't say either build is "wrong".

 

I want similar flexibility in PE. If I make a fighter, why shouldn't I be able to invest in magic? I understand if certain spells are not accessible because I did not start as a mage, but why can't I enhance my melee attacks with magic? Or utilize certain magical artifacts better? If PE is going to be primarily a skill-based system, why shouldn't I be able to blur the lines between classes? We have enough games that firmly lock you into a narrow class identity. I'm sick of those games and I don't think they have as nearly as much longevity.

 

Consider this: People still play Diablo 2 and Titan Quest. This game is not them, but I think it aims to be very replayable. We should endeavor to make the combat and character building systems as complex and as deep as possible, to facilitate as many play through as possible. Because cRPGs are about exploration; exploring the choices you "could have" made requires a new playthrough. ARPGs are very, very replayable.

[cuteLittleRabbit]

I want a Luck stat Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility and Luck seems fine to me

 

I actually prefer stat bonuses/perks to stat requirements for gear.

 

For instance, for stats:

* Carrying gear reduces a character's walking speed --> Strength is used to counter that reduction

* Ranged attacks have a lower chance to hit, the farther away the target is --> Perception is used to counter that lower chance

* A percentage of Stamina damage is applied as Hit Points damage --> Endurance lowers that percentage

* NPC's are not friendly to your character if they don't know you --> Charisma can reduce the effects

* A mage's spell effectiveness is reduced by a target's spell resistance --> Intelligence counters that reduction

* ...and so on

 

 

I find stat requirements for gear usually counterproductive, as they require you to build your character so they can equip that gear: let everyone wear any gear... and instead give the item bonuses & perks that only benefit a certain kind of character.

[jivex5k]

Speaking of statistics...

 

I think restraining the equipment that a character can use because of his stats is nonsense.

 

Indeed, why couldn't a warrior use a leather armor because he has low dexterity? It's just an armor and I think that he is totally able to put leather pieces on... Same thing for a wizard's staff. My rogue should be able to equip that staff, although he couldn't be smart enough to use its power, rendering it useless. A sorceress who has a full plate armor in her backpack should be able to wear it, even if she can't use the armor's full abilities. The full plate just doesn't become heavier because she tries to put it on.

 

In my opinion, all characters should be able to use all equipment but without the required stats (or training), they can not use it at its best or can not activate the powers bound to that equipment... And that is a flaw of d&d system.

Your getting into the realm of: "It makes sense in real life so it should be this way."

It's been proven again and again that what necessarily makes sense isn't always good for balance.

 

There has to be some sort of restriction/penalty for equipping certain items or everyone will end up with the same best gear. If everyone can wear full plate with no penalty then who wouldn't do it?

 

A warrior should be able to don full plate with no penalty.

A rogue will lose his ability to had and take a dex loss.

A mage should have increased cast time/cooldown and a reduced range or something.

Etc....

 

I like rabbits ideas above.

 

Let the party members wear what they want but implement penalties/bonuses to encourage certain gear on certain classes.

Edited October 17, 2012 by jivex5k

[anubite]

I do agree generally, however, having small stat requirements for gear is not a detriment to customization -- and I think it forces some deeper character building.

 

What's if there's some amazing magic-oriented staff in the game (maybe it's even available early and can be upgraded like the multi-headed mace)? But it's rather heavy and bulky and requires a minimum strength of 9 - if you know this weapon exists ahead of time or discover it early enough, you could find a way to fit 9 strength into your mage character to wield it, instead of trying to min/max your way to success by stacking as much int/con/wisdom as possible. I think stat requirements then, are a good way to restrict gear.

 

Perhaps not all gear, of course.

Edited October 17, 2012 by anubite

[Hormalakh]

I find the Path of Exile creation extremely confusing and limiting.

 

I did want to mention that Baldur's Gate II, Arcanum,Fallout and all of these games had slightly different attributes being changed.

• Baldur's Gate and its successors used the Forgotten Realms system of Str,Dex,End,Int,Wis,Cha,
  
• Arcanum had sort of a table format with Physical and Mental as the ordinates and Power, Skill, Resistance, and Appearance as the absicca and a total of 8 stats derived from that (Str,Dex,Con,Beauty,Int,Percep,Willpower,Charisma)
  
• Fallout had the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system (str,Percep,End,Const,Int,Agil,Luck)
  
• There was the initial GURPS system
  
• Darklands had Divine Favor
  
• Might and Magic had Str,Int, Personality, Endurance, Speed, Accuracy, Luck
  
• and so on and so on
  

The one thing I noticed with all of these stats systems is that they worked really well for their worlds. I think ultimately that the developers should probably create something very similar to these systems, but to utilize the stats (strength, int, endurance, etc) as ways to define unchanging attributes of the people of this world and skills (barter, mechanics, steal, etc) as more flexible attributes that can change during the game.

 

Ultimately, we might not have the same stats at the end of development than what are found in BG or FO, etc. Generally speaking strength, dexerity/agility, intelligence, and endurance/constitution have been mainstays in RPGs. Luck, wisdom, perception, charisma, willpower, and others not so much. I think that ultimately the creators of the game will decide a few questions. One is "What aspects of the game world are we trying to highlight in this game system?" Secondly, "What attributes do we want to make unchanging in this world?" For example, would one's access to his soul be something highlighted and will it be changing or unchanging in this world? If unchanging, consider making it a stat. If changing, consider making it a skill (Access soul skill, for example).

 

The whole point of my post here is that ultimately the P:E world will probably not look exactly like Fallout or Baldur's Gate because the game developers might want to highlight certain aspects of this world over others. Luck might not be a factor here. Neither might wisdom or Willpower. And I'm completely fine with that. The one thing that I will not be fine with, however, is to make a certain statistic be part of the character creation and to not make that stat matter throughout the game (something I'm sure will not be a problem with OE). Your stats (and skills) should ultimately effect the class you can be, the items you can use, the dialogue options you can have, and the solutions you use to solve problems in the game world.

 

I'm more interested in knowing which stats make it into the game, and how they effect certain attributes. For example, will my stamina be determined by one stat and my HP determined by another? I think that makes for an interesting tactical choice (can my character do much in short bursts while being more likely to die (high stamina, low HP), or is s/he more of a long-term survivor, doing less but living longer (low stamina, high HP)?

 

Edit: Grammar and clarity.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Gizmo]

Unpopular though it may be, I quite prefer rigid classes to making noncommittal "be-whatever-you-want-just-buy-our-game" style characters.

 

Classes reflect the PC's history, and their aspirations. It's what they have studied, and what they want to excel at; I should not choose a Cleric if I want to play an aggressive melee fighter; I should not choose a Barbarian if I want to cast high level spells and hide behind summoned minion.

 

Class names are like window dressing for the underlying mechanical function of the Class... Warriors are tanks, Wizards are Artillery, and Clerics are the medics.

[Jarrakul]

My thoughts on the issue:

 

Stat requirements for equipment aren't useful. At best, they're part of the utility of a particular stat, but that leads to people wanting certain threshold values and not increasing the stat beyond that. So don't bother. It really doesn't add anything except level requirements in disguise, which are a bad idea in a singleplayer game.

 

Stats need to be balanced well for all characters. The IE games, wonderful though they were, did an absolutely terrible job of this. Everyone wanted Dex and Con, but Strength, Intelligence, and Wisdom were only useful for certain classes, and Charisma was only useful for one character in the whole party (Planescape: Torment did a better job, of course, but the point still stands)

 

Instead of feeling tied to D&D's stat system, Arcanum's stat system, Fallout's stat system, or any other such system, Obsidian should use whatever system they feel is best. The rest of the game rules are new, why try and tie them to an old stat system if it doesn't fit their vision?

[Gizmo]

I like stat requirements. In fallout your PC had to actually be strong enough to control a minigun to use it without penalty. In Planescape, you didn't get dialog options unless your PC's stat was sufficient for it to make sense.

 

I would fully support a wizard class requiring an extreme intelligence value... where as a Witch class [male or female] wouldn't need any intelligence requirement at all; or could perhaps require a lower intelligence.

 

I would find it really cool if PE rolled your stats for you and listed only those classes available with those stats; [optionally ~but not preferred] they could also just allow the player to choose a class and ensure minimum stats in the requirements. And/or use the point method, where players assign their PC stats. Realms of Arkania really did that well... The game rolled a number and you assigned it ~but you did not know what the next number it rolled would be; brilliant.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Gizmo

[khango]

That Path of Exile stat thing seems really overwhelmingly complicated now that I've looked at it.

 

It just looks complex. It's really not.

 

 

I'll agree that going with the flow in it isn't so bad, but if you actually want to have some basis for making decisions or to maximize particular attributes, or even find the least expensive route to some ability node, their system pretty much requires you to implement complicated versions of random graph algorithms like dijkstra's or prim's just to figure out how you should design your selection tree.

[Sensuki]

I don't really care about what the stats are I just hope that they're fairly static throughout the game.

[ComMcNeil]

I think we need to define if we want to have stats being able to increase on its own or not.

 

The old D&D way which was used in IE games certainly was intruiging in that way, that you were really lucky to find stuff that increased your stats, may it be temporary or permanently.

In such a system, stat requirements also make sense in my opinion, but they should be reasonable.

 

I would like the old style of AD&D for stats, but please drop the STR nonsense at 18 (18/01 - 18/00) and dont even think of implementing something like that again.

 

So in short, primary stats should not change that much over the course of your career, maybe slightly due to special training, major quest rewards, temporary stat boosts or item enhancements. Advancement should take place in secondary stats, be it professions, skills, "feats" or the like