Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part II).

[SophosTheWise]

And another example of historically inspired armour: The Witcher 2.

 

 

[Nomine Vacans]

Because I can enjoy a game with an aesthetic I may not like means I have no valid arguments? You enjoyed PS:T (I'm assuming) so I guess you have no valid arguments either?

I've enjoyed Fallout as well, so let's bring powerarmor and miniguns in P:E?

You opposing realistic design with no particular reason for it, just for the sake of opposing something.

 

By the way: High Fantasy doesn't single out realistic and historically inspired armor. Proof? Dark Souls or Dragon's Dogma. The Knight in Dark Souls wears a Maximilian armor, 16th century German plate armor. Of course it's not a historically accurate design, but it's cleary inspired by it. The armor that the Chosen One wears at the beginning of Dragon's Dogma is probably 14th century inspired.

 

 

To be fair It's not a Maximillian armor) It's stylization for some generic European armor, quite adequate, but it's clearly not a Maximilian and not of 16th century)

Just to be clear with terms. =)

It's good looking armor (in Dark Souls) and it is realistic enough (doesn't have to be a replica).

Edited November 15, 2012 by Comedian

[SophosTheWise]

Because I can enjoy a game with an aesthetic I may not like means I have no valid arguments? You enjoyed PS:T (I'm assuming) so I guess you have no valid arguments either?

I've enjoyed Fallout as well, so let's bring powerarmor and miniguns in P:E?

You opposing realistic design with no particular reason for it, just for the sake of opposing something.

 

By the way: High Fantasy doesn't single out realistic and historically inspired armor. Proof? Dark Souls or Dragon's Dogma. The Knight in Dark Souls wears a Maximilian armor, 16th century German plate armor. Of course it's not a historically accurate design, but it's cleary inspired by it. The armor that the Chosen One wears at the beginning of Dragon's Dogma is probably 14th century inspired.

 

 

 

To be fair It's not a Maximillian armor) It's stylization for some generic European armor, quite adequate, but it's clearly not a Maximilian and not of 16th century)

 

Thus I said "the Knight wears", because he clearly wears Maximilian (inspired) armour, I just couldn't find a good picture of it. Nevertheless the armour in the picture is not Maximilian, you're right. But I can see that my original post was a bit confusing.

I still couldn't find a picture, but I think a video is just as good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUgDTqvuC5M&feature=relmfu

Edited November 15, 2012 by SophosTheWise

[Nomine Vacans]

Thus I said "the Knight wears", because he clearly wears Maximilian (inspired) armour, I just couldn't find a good picture of it. Nevertheless the armour in the picture is not Maximilian, you're right. I still couldn't find a picture, but I think a video is just as good

Yes, heavily inspired by Maximilian. I just make wrong conclusions due to attached picture. My bad.

I haven't played Dark Souls, so my knowledge about the game is limited by Google-dzutsu =)

[Dream]

You are taking the argument to an absurd extreme. PS:T did have fantasy elements and it wasn't entirely realistic, but it was more realistic than it could have been. As TrashMan brought up WoW would be an excellent example of immersion breaking un-realism and an excellent example of what myself and others don't want to see. You said if something is written well it can be immersive no matter what but the folly of this argument is that employing realism is a part of good writing. A good writer understands that you are injecting fantasy into the real world, not injecting fantasy into more fantasy. Baldur's Gate had fantasy elements, but it was realistic enough to maintain immersion and that is what's important not that a game be entirely one way or the other.

 

Except the people I'm arguing with do want it to be entirely one way; theirs. I've said multiple times that ideally P:E would have a mix of everything (Skyrim did this well with normal looking armor at the onset and Daedric armor near the end, same for D3), but the people arguing here don't want any unrealistic armor in it P:E all and want everything to look strictly functional. Additionally, since people brought it up, Dark souls was a good example of this since it had some armor that was realistic and some that was decidedly not (and these aren't even some of the craziest pieces in it).

 

As for realism being an important part of good writing; that's not really true. I felt immersed in and greatly enjoyed Bayonetta, and that game was about as far from realistic as you can get (physics had two settings in it, barely there and off). Besides, I'm hardly arguing for the game to take place in Limbo; just that it has similar designs to the IE games (boob plates, big armor, sexy outfits for the thieves and mages, and some of the late game weapons and armor being rather extravagant such as Vhailor's look or Carsomyr).

[Karranthain]

Like I said earlier you can't really argue immersion or taste because those things are highly subjective. The only real argument you can have is about what the intended audience of Project: Eternity would like. Seeing as we can't exactly poll all 75k backers we have to extrapolate based on the data we have. This poll, for instance, shows that the games that most brought people here were PS:T, followed by BG, and followed further by "other or multiples" with most of those answers being BG + PS:T. That finding is in line with the fact that P:E was directly advertised as being a modern Infinity Engine game. Now, is it possible that the majority of the fans of those games loved them enough to invest in a spiritual successor while at the same time hating the armor choices they made (while never really complaining about it, despite the internet loving to bitch)? Sure, but it's not very likely.

 

Why is it not very likely? For an instance, I've cast my vote for Torment in that poll. I really enjoyed the story and writing; does it mean I've enjoyed combat as well? It could be, after all, extrapolated that I did.

 

Sure it's possible all those fans secretly despised the armor choices, but it's a bit hard to argue that position.

 

I'd say it's about as hard to argue that they loved those games because of the armour & weapon designs present therein (at least if you're only basing that on an extrapolation - which is, after all, just a guess).

 

In the end, it really does boil down to a personal preference, nothing else; neither solution is objectively better (that's the point of contention here, basically).

 

That said, so that I'm understood correctly (though I think you know my stance on this matter, we've discussed it before), I'd personally prefer it the designs employed in PE treaded the fine line between functional and improbable. I certainly don't expect to see Obsidian slavishly copying historical designs - nor would I want them to; but I'd certainly appreciate it if they took bits and pieces from them and used them creatively (in a way that wouldn't completely obliterate suspension of disbelief).

[jezz555]

You are taking the argument to an absurd extreme. PS:T did have fantasy elements and it wasn't entirely realistic, but it was more realistic than it could have been. As TrashMan brought up WoW would be an excellent example of immersion breaking un-realism and an excellent example of what myself and others don't want to see. You said if something is written well it can be immersive no matter what but the folly of this argument is that employing realism is a part of good writing. A good writer understands that you are injecting fantasy into the real world, not injecting fantasy into more fantasy. Baldur's Gate had fantasy elements, but it was realistic enough to maintain immersion and that is what's important not that a game be entirely one way or the other.

 

Except the people I'm arguing with do want it to be entirely one way; theirs. I've said multiple times that ideally P:E would have a mix of everything (Skyrim did this well with normal looking armor at the onset and Daedric armor near the end, same for D3), but the people arguing here don't want any unrealistic armor in it P:E all and want everything to look strictly functional. Additionally, since people brought it up, Dark souls was a good example of this since it had some armor that was realistic and some that was decidedly not (and these aren't even some of the craziest pieces in it).

 

As for realism being an important part of good writing; that's not really true. I felt immersed in and greatly enjoyed Bayonetta, and that game was about as far from realistic as you can get (physics had two settings in it, barely there and off). Besides, I'm hardly arguing for the game to take place in Limbo; just that it has similar designs to the IE games (boob plates, big armor, sexy outfits for the thieves and mages, and some of the late game weapons and armor being rather extravagant such as Vhailor's look or Carsomyr).

 

Bayonetta is an action game with intentionally absurd gear designs, not a story focused crpg so thats a bad comparison...As a big Dark Souls player, let me tell you that the armor is realistic, it's just that not all of the designs are historically based. Certain weapons are over-sized for game play purposes and magic in the world gives rise to more outlandish gear yes,but gear is still largely functional and largely historically based even if it deviates a little from there, and that's really all I ask.

 

Once again you are bringing the two sides of this arguments into two polar extremes. These are fantasy games were talking about, of course some of the gear is going to look strange, but does it look like something that could reasonably be crafted with tools available in that world? Could you image the items on a real person in the real world? That is realistic fantasy. We are not talking about final fantasy vs a medieval combat sim here, we are talking about IE games (yes boob plates, big armor, sexy outfits and all) vs goofy, cartoonish, oversized, frat-paddle shaped FANTASEH BLADZ.

Edited November 15, 2012 by jezz555

[Dream]

You are taking the argument to an absurd extreme. PS:T did have fantasy elements and it wasn't entirely realistic, but it was more realistic than it could have been. As TrashMan brought up WoW would be an excellent example of immersion breaking un-realism and an excellent example of what myself and others don't want to see. You said if something is written well it can be immersive no matter what but the folly of this argument is that employing realism is a part of good writing. A good writer understands that you are injecting fantasy into the real world, not injecting fantasy into more fantasy. Baldur's Gate had fantasy elements, but it was realistic enough to maintain immersion and that is what's important not that a game be entirely one way or the other.

 

Except the people I'm arguing with do want it to be entirely one way; theirs. I've said multiple times that ideally P:E would have a mix of everything (Skyrim did this well with normal looking armor at the onset and Daedric armor near the end, same for D3), but the people arguing here don't want any unrealistic armor in it P:E all and want everything to look strictly functional. Additionally, since people brought it up, Dark souls was a good example of this since it had some armor that was realistic and some that was decidedly not (and these aren't even some of the craziest pieces in it).

 

As for realism being an important part of good writing; that's not really true. I felt immersed in and greatly enjoyed Bayonetta, and that game was about as far from realistic as you can get (physics had two settings in it, barely there and off). Besides, I'm hardly arguing for the game to take place in Limbo; just that it has similar designs to the IE games (boob plates, big armor, sexy outfits for the thieves and mages, and some of the late game weapons and armor being rather extravagant such as Vhailor's look or Carsomyr).

 

Bayonetta is an action game with intentionally absurd gear designs, not a story focused crpg so thats a bad comparison...As a big Dark Souls player, let me tell you that the armor is realistic, it's just that not all of the designs are historically based. Certain weapons are over-sized for game play purposes and magic in the world gives rise to more outlandish gear yes,but gear is still largely functional and largely historically based even if it deviates a little from there, and that's really all I ask.

 

Once again you are bringing the two sides of this arguments into two polar extremes. These are fantasy games were talking about, of course some of the gear is going to look strange, but does it look like something that could reasonably be crafted with tools available in that world? Could you image the items on a real person in the real world? That is realistic fantasy. We are not talking about final fantasy vs a medieval combat sim here, we are talking about IE games (yes boob plates, big armor, sexy outfits and all) vs goofy, cartoonish, oversized, frat-paddle shaped FANTASEH BLADZ.

 

What exactly are you arguing here? From the very beginning I've said I'd like the aesthetics to be similar to those in the IE games (hell, I said it in the very post you quoted), but people disagreed with me saying there's no proof that people actually liked the aesthetics of the IE games. You seem to agree with me while telling me I'm pushing this argument toward extremes; I don't want this to be Bayonetta 2 (I want Bayonetta 2 to be Bayonetta 2), but at the same time I don't want it to be Medieval: Total War the RPG. Ideally it should be something in the middle (like, gasp, BG or PST).

 

As for Dark Souls, how is THIS functional?

 

[Agelastos]

As for Dark Souls, how is THIS functional?

 

 

Looks like pretty standard Southern European/Aegean Iron Age gear (except for the adornments), as far as I can see. It's just the... thing that's wearing it that is weirdly shaped.

I might be wrong, however, since I'm having a hard time seeing where the armor ends and the skin begins...

Edited November 16, 2012 by Agelastos

[Dream]

Sure it's possible all those fans secretly despised the armor choices, but it's a bit hard to argue that position.

I'd say it's about as hard to argue that they loved those games because of the armour & weapon designs present therein (at least if you're only basing that on an extrapolation - which is, after all, just a guess).

 

The games have been out for over a dozen years. If the fans truly despised the armor and weapon designs there'd have been more than the random forum thread here and there about the subject (hell, ME3 was only out for a few days before we found out how the fan base felt about that train wreck). The absence of complaining points to (but doesn't prove) that either people liked the designs or at best (for the realism argument) weren't bothered by them.

 

In the end, it really does boil down to a personal preference, nothing else; neither solution is objectively better (that's the point of contention here, basically).

 

That said, so that I'm understood correctly (though I think you know my stance on this matter, we've discussed it before), I'd personally prefer it the designs employed in PE treaded the fine line between functional and improbable. I certainly don't expect to see Obsidian slavishly copying historical designs - nor would I want them to; but I'd certainly appreciate it if they took bits and pieces from them and used them creatively (in a way that wouldn't completely obliterate suspension of disbelief).

 

Yea, I think we agreed back then. I doubt anyone actually wants ALL the armor to be improbable and over the top (hard to appreciate a fancy meal if that's all you eat), but at the same time having everything look virtually the same just shaded differently for varying metals would be a little boring. For me something in the middle like a mix of BG and PST would be ideal (and what this game was advertised as).

 

Looks like pretty standard Southern European/Aegean Iron Age gear (except for the adornments), as far as I can see. It's just the... thing that's wearing it that is weirdly shaped.

I might be wrong, however, since I'm having a hard time seeing where the armor ends and the skin begins...

 

Normal sized human wearing it; there is no skin showing. Here's another armor set from the same boss (well, dual boss).

Edited November 16, 2012 by Dream

[Agelastos]

 

Normal sized human wearing it; there is no skin showing. Here's another armor set from the same boss (well, dual boss).

 

Haha! Okay! I stand corrected.

[jezz555]

 

 

What exactly are you arguing here? From the very beginning I've said I'd like the aesthetics to be similar to those in the IE games (hell, I said it in the very post you quoted), but people disagreed with me saying there's no proof that people actually liked the aesthetics of the IE games. You seem to agree with me while telling me I'm pushing this argument toward extremes; I don't want this to be Bayonetta 2 (I want Bayonetta 2 to be Bayonetta 2), but at the same time I don't want it to be Medieval: Total War the RPG. Ideally it should be something in the middle (like, gasp, BG or PST).

 

As for Dark Souls, how is THIS functional?

 

We are in agreement if your suggestion is that the game be largely realistic, but feature some more elaborate gear. My point was simply that the debate is not all or nothing and your post certainly expressed it as such. The armour in question is, realistic, it wouldn't be easy to wear(granted you picked a very outlandish set), but it looks to be made out of metal, It has rivets, joints and designs that actually look like they could be crafted onto armour, and the design of it would provide for adequate protection and the diversion of kinetic energy. Were the fantasy comes in is in its size and the fact that the stomach is so inflated, but Smough could be a pretty fat guy underneath that armour who knows? Dark Souls, is a fantasy game to be sure, but it is refreshingly realistic fantasy when compared to say this...

 

 

Edited November 16, 2012 by jezz555

[Dream]

What exactly are you arguing here? From the very beginning I've said I'd like the aesthetics to be similar to those in the IE games (hell, I said it in the very post you quoted), but people disagreed with me saying there's no proof that people actually liked the aesthetics of the IE games. You seem to agree with me while telling me I'm pushing this argument toward extremes; I don't want this to be Bayonetta 2 (I want Bayonetta 2 to be Bayonetta 2), but at the same time I don't want it to be Medieval: Total War the RPG. Ideally it should be something in the middle (like, gasp, BG or PST).

 

As for Dark Souls, how is THIS functional?

 

We are in agreement if your suggestion is that the game be largely realistic, but feature some more elaborate gear. My point was simply that the debate is not all or nothing and your post certainly expressed it as such. The armour in question is, realistic, it wouldn't be easy to wear(granted you picked a very outlandish set), but it looks to be made out of metal, It has rivets, joints and designs that actually look like they could be crafted onto armour, and the design of it would provide for adequate protection and the diversion of kinetic energy. Were the fantasy comes in is in its size and the fact that the stomach is so inflated, but Smough could be a pretty fat guy underneath that armour who knows? Dark Souls, is a fantasy game to be sure, but it is refreshingly realistic fantasy when compared to say this...

 

 

That's outfit's certainly something.

 

But yes, having all the gear be extravagant and over the top would be excessive, but at the same time everything being strictly functional and realistic would get old quick. Ideally, for me, the initial gear should resemble what one might find in the real world and as you progress there should be magical versions of those same designs, but at the same time one should be able to stumble upon fantastically designed armor (worn by demon lords, within dragon hoards, etc.). This way if people like realism they can use the enchanted armor that looks like the regular stuff while the people that don't care for realism as much will have some cool looking **** to look forward to (and it's not like this game is multiplayer so the realists will never have to look at that armor if they don't want to).

 

At the same time I don't see much of an issue with things like boob plates (since it'd be impossible to tell whether a 1 inch avatar in full plate is male or female otherwise) and sexy outfits for the rogues/mages (and here again they can include both practical and sexy leather/cloth outfits). But if boobs plates really bother people that much I'm sure they could add a toggle for it (they did get 3 million more than they intended after all, and it's safe to assume at least some percentage of those backers likes boob plates).

[TrashMan]

Oh, but I can.

Immorsion is mostly tied fo believability.

Realism is by definition immersive. You cannot argue that relism is not realistic and takes you out of the experience, now can you?

Logicly, realistic armor has that one advantage over unrealistic one. Period.

 

Immersion is tied to a million things, and, as Planescape shows, a realistic world does not have to be one of those. If written well anything under the sun can be immersive. Immersion and believability may mostly tied to realism for YOU, but it sure as **** isn't for me (and for all the Planescape fans either). If that is the case, however, may I suggest staying away from fantasy games and trying out something like this; it's a lot more realistic.

 

No, it can't.

Well, maybe for you it can.

 

Just because you have a redicolously high tolerance to sour, don't persume to season food heavily and claim everyone should find it tasty and it's not sour. It is sour. It's just that your tounge has whitered to nothing so you can't tell anymore

 

 

And don't presume to tell me to stay out of "your" genre.

It ain't yours. It's mine. you get out.

 

GIT!

 

 

BG had pretty normal looking armor. Your argument is void.

 

BG had boob plates, huge pauldrons, and all the female outfits were skin tight. If that's what you feel is normal then cool, lets do that for Project: Eternity.

 

I don't recall huge pauldrons and skin-tight outfits. Wut you talking about?

The little guys walking around look pretty normal

[TrashMan]

As for realism being an important part of good writing; that's not really true. I felt immersed in and greatly enjoyed Bayonetta, and that game was about as far from realistic as you can get (physics had two settings in it, barely there and off). Besides, I'm hardly arguing for the game to take place in Limbo; just that it has similar designs to the IE games (boob plates, big armor, sexy outfits for the thieves and mages, and some of the late game weapons and armor being rather extravagant such as Vhailor's look or Carsomyr).

 

I had great fun with super Mario but that doesn't make it immersive.

 

Not all people have the same treshold to Suspend Disbelief. If oyu cna get into things easily - great for you. Other people can't.

 

Since you CAN immerse yourself easily, that means you will immerse yourself regardless of how redicolous or unrealistic the world is. Sicne the opposite doesn't hold true, then it makes more sense to make the world more realistic if you want peopel to immerse themselves in it mroe easily..

[Shadenuat]

 

My favorite Sarevok. Notice the plates on thights and how they are connected to plate skirt. That's the part which bothered me in Cadegund's art the most.

[Wulfic]

@UP

 

This is a great example of how armours can still be fantasy styled and realistic at the same time ! Beatifull piece of art right there ! This is how I imagined Sarevok :D

[Merlkir]

I've been following that artist for a while, he's very well versed in historical armour designs. You can clearly see what he designed himself and where he took on stuff from the Sarevok paintings and other ingame artwork. (like the godawful shoulder blades :D)

[Elerond]

In my opinion functional designing don't kill imagination and fantastic looking stuff, but in right hands it adds it and can make stuff much more interesting than plain design by look only

 

here some samples from one renascence master

 

 

 

 

 

[Dream]

Immersion is tied to a million things, and, as Planescape shows, a realistic world does not have to be one of those. If written well anything under the sun can be immersive. Immersion and believability may mostly tied to realism for YOU, but it sure as **** isn't for me (and for all the Planescape fans either). If that is the case, however, may I suggest staying away from fantasy games and trying out something like this; it's a lot more realistic.

No, it can't.

Well, maybe for you it can.

 

Just because you have a redicolously high tolerance to sour, don't persume to season food heavily and claim everyone should find it tasty and it's not sour. It is sour. It's just that your tounge has whitered to nothing so you can't tell anymore

 

The fact that the Planescape campaign setting, Sucker Punch, the Cthulhu mythos, Bayonetta, etc. exist is indicative that realism is not the end all be all of immersion for everyone.

 

However this is beside the point since no one is actually asking for P:E to take place in Limbo.

 

I don't recall huge pauldrons and skin-tight outfits. Wut you talking about?

The little guys walking around look pretty normal

 

 

Big pauldrons, skin tight thief outfits, and boob plates. Hell even the plate/chain is pretty damn form fitting.

 

I had great fun with super Mario but that doesn't make it immersive.

 

Not all people have the same treshold to Suspend Disbelief. If oyu cna get into things easily - great for you. Other people can't.

 

Since you CAN immerse yourself easily, that means you will immerse yourself regardless of how redicolous or unrealistic the world is. Sicne the opposite doesn't hold true, then it makes more sense to make the world more realistic if you want peopel to immerse themselves in it mroe easily..

 

So you want it to be made to appeal to the most people possible? I hear COD sells well.

[Shadenuat]

Big pauldrons, skin tight thief outfits, and boob plates. Hell even the plate/chain is pretty damn form fitting.

Bunch of colorful pixels on 640*480 screen is very abstract, that's why it does't stand out as much as 3D models today.

Compared to nowadays, these are pretty mundane. Normal-sized weapons and fully-covered body with armor for warriors.

 

Cthulhu mythos, Bayonetta

*snort*

 

I hear COD sells well.

You are trying too hard.

[jezz555]

 

My favorite Sarevok. Notice the plates on thights and how they are connected to plate skirt. That's the part which bothered me in Cadegund's art the most.

 

I like this and I think it helps illustrate the idea of "fantasty realism" really well. We aren't talking about something that is totally historically accurate for the real world, just something that could have been if magic ect. had existed.

[Dream]

Big pauldrons, skin tight thief outfits, and boob plates. Hell even the plate/chain is pretty damn form fitting.

Bunch of colorful pixels on 640*480 screen is very abstract, that's why it does't stand out as much as 3D models today.

Compared to nowadays, these are pretty mundane. Normal-sized weapons and fully-covered body with armor for warriors.

 

So what's your point? That you'd be fine if P:E looked like BG? Me, too.

[Elerond]

Big pauldrons, skin tight thief outfits, and boob plates. Hell even the plate/chain is pretty damn form fitting.

Bunch of colorful pixels on 640*480 screen is very abstract, that's why it does't stand out as much as 3D models today.

Compared to nowadays, these are pretty mundane. Normal-sized weapons and fully-covered body with armor for warriors.

 

So what's your point? That you'd be fine if P:E looked like BG? Me, too.

 

Or that it really don't mater how things look if people can't see difference with two characters .

 

 

And of course BG had quite used pretty much functional design in all armours in the game.

http://mikesrpgcente...gate/armor.html

And same goes pretty much for the weapons, with some exceptions like war hammer that look nothing like what they claim to be, strange looking clubs and and throwing axes

http://mikesrpgcente...gate/melee.html

http://mikesrpgcente...ate/ranged.html

 

Some character models, mostly female ones where quite badly designed in BG and one can see that memory and computing power limited their option quite much. So I must say that I would be greatly disappointed if PE looks like BG, because we have now better technology to use that gives us much more tools to make world look more living and make better character and equipment models. But original equipment design follows those lines that I would like to see PE to follow and keep away of BG2's equipment design.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Elerond

[Dream]

 

Some character models, mostly female ones where quite badly designed in BG

 

I liked how they were designed; boob plates and skimpy outfits (which is what you're referring to I'm guessing) are ubiquitous for a reason.