Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part II).

[villain of the story]

No, that's physics.

Bigger mass takes more effort to get moving. It is slower to accelerate. It is also harder to stop.

Center of mass affects balance.

Mid-swing a two-handed hammer is just as fast as a sword.

But it takes slightly longer to get up to that speed. The difference is minimal tough, but it exists. And it might very well make a difference in battle.

 

Umm, no. That's Hollywood. You don't use a hammer the way you would use a sword. If you did, only then it would be legitimate to say that it's slower due to physics. Different weapons employ different techniques, also based on physics, however, which make up for the relative speed differences.

 

As I said before, that's physics. You can't cheat physics.

 

You move mass either way.

And while you don't use them both completely the same, in some cases you do.

 

Even worse for hammers it they don't have a piercing tip, since they depend on large swings, and not short jabs/stabs.

 

 

Of course, absolutely true. But all things being equal, different types of weapons, produced with the same level of quality and craftmanship, can not be compared and rated as "better or worse balanced than each other" which is how I interpreted your previous statement. A fine sword is just as balanced as a fine axe or mace or hammer or halberd or whatever.

 

Nope, it's not.

The center of mass for an axe will always be higher, making it inherenlty less balanced.

 

Umm yes, because you don't use an axe like you would use a sword therefore it cannot be less balanced. Different physics = different techniques for maximum efficiency.

 

You could argue that the specific functions that specific weapons serve when used with maximum efficiency may or may not match one another due to physical differences but that's a far cry from "balance". Every tool, whether a construction tool or a weapon, is made to have its own internal balance for maximum efficiency in its intended utilisation, therefore you can not rate any tool based on the criteria that apply to another tool. You can't say that a simple household hammer has better balance than a crowbar because they are different tools made to serve different purposes. Their fields of use may overlap and then you can compare and rate their usefulness in those particular fields of use. But saying one is better balanced than the other is a mediocre understanding of what physics is. Physics isn't a WIN button that provides all answers in one package.

 

To try and get some perspective, try to think of it like this: "a sword is inherently less balanced than an axe because when you use a sword like you would use an axe, you wouldn't be as effective as you would with an axe".

 

The underlined latter part is an undetestable fact but it doesn't make the former part true.

Edited October 26, 2012 by villain of the story

[Macs]

Umm yes, because you don't use an axe like you would use a sword therefore it cannot be less balanced. Different physics = different techniques for maximum efficiency.

 

You could argue that the specific functions that specific weapons serve when used with maximum efficiency may or may not match one another due to physical differences but that's a far cry from "balance". Every tool, whether a construction tool or a weapon, is made to have its own internal balance for maximum efficiency in its intended utilisation, therefore you can not rate any tool based on the criteria that apply to another tool. You can't say that a simple household hammer has better balance than a crowbar because they are different tools made to serve different purposes. Their fields of use may overlap and then you can compare and rate their usefulness in those particular fields of use. But saying one is better balanced than the other is a mediocre understanding of what physics is. Physics isn't a WIN button that provides all answers in one package.

 

To try and get some perspective, try to think of it like this: "a sword is inherently less balanced than an axe because when you use a sword like you would use an axe, you wouldn't be as effective as you would with an axe".

 

The underlined latter part is an undetestable fact but it doesn't make the former part true.

 

Well, an axe has nearly all of its mass in its head. A sword, if I'm not mistaken, is usually constructed to have a heavier hilt because the blade is longer and it is supposed to be balanced at or close to the crossguard or equivalent.

 

It's all a matter of where your point of balance should be. We hold an axe and a sword at the hilt or at the bottom of the handle. Here, a sword is more balanced, as its point of balance is closer to where we hold it. If that is better or worse depends, as you say, on how we want to use it, of course.

For chopping blocks of wood, you don't need much finesse or fast reactive control of the movement, but a lot of mass where the axe hits the wood. You don't need it to be balance at your grip, and a heavy handle would just make chopping wood even more of a chore without much use.

[Karranthain]

What do you think about those? Obviously, the helm's not so functional

 

 

[HumanFlesh+5]

So, how do escapism and extraordinary experiences necessarily equal spikes and massive shoulderpads?

 

'Cause they look cool and don't exist in the real world.

 

1) "cause they look cool" is subjective, many people would dispute this.

2) "don't exist in the real world" - neither do shoulder pads made of living radioactive jelly eels. Are those fun? I think they're quite retarded, as are spikes and massive shoulderpads.

 

Try this for an extraordinary experience - wear massive shoulder pads with 2 foot spikes and lift your arms. We'll all be happier if you do.

 

i really agree with you. but give radioactive-jelly-eel-shoulder pads a try first :D

[Merlkir]

What do you think about those? Obviously, the helm's not so functional

 

 

 

Both are well in the acceptably-over-the-top range for me. The helmet is a bit too tall to be useful, but tall helmets were used through history, so it's somewhat believable.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Merlkir

[Karranthain]

What do you think about those? Obviously, the helm's not so functional

 

 

 

Both are well in the acceptably-over-the-top range for me. The helmet is a bit too tall to be useful, but tall helmets were used through history, so it's somewhat believable.

 

The weapons look like actual implements of war This sort of design looks believable and isn't gaudy - and it's definitely fantasy all the same.

 

Another example :

 

 

Could work for Glanfathan Elves

[Jarmo]

What do you think about those? Obviously, the helm's not so functional

 

 

At least it's not as completely over the top as something like this:

 

 

But yeah, fine design and actually pretty much down to earth all over,

while still not a straight copy/paste from the history books.

[Karranthain]

And if you really need to go over the top :

 

[Dream]

It IS a strawman, I never said ALL designs should be historical. (which is what you accuse me of)

 

1.) I'm not against designs which are fantastical. I'm against designs which are retarded. If it's magical, if it makes sense in the world of PE, fine. It has been stated a few times that we'd like some historical influence, practical thought behind the designs. Not exact copies of historical armour.

 

2.) You are against realistic/reasonably functional designs in general, you said so a few times, you find it bland and boring. You require huge shoulder pads and spikes, because they're "cool". No idea why you're suddenly grouping yourself with the people wanting both.

 

Anyway, wanting both reasonable and spiky/nonsensical designs is equally retarded.

 

Actually, I stated that only the higher end stuff should be crazy looking, but I can see how you might get confused. The earlier things you find should obviously be bland and boring; else there would be no sense of escalation, and no, going from plate mail to plate mail with gold inlay isn't my idea of improvement.

 

On the other hand, you have just now (again) stated that you only want things the way you like them because compromise is apparently retarded.

[UncleBourbon]

It IS a strawman, I never said ALL designs should be historical. (which is what you accuse me of)

 

1.) I'm not against designs which are fantastical. I'm against designs which are retarded. If it's magical, if it makes sense in the world of PE, fine. It has been stated a few times that we'd like some historical influence, practical thought behind the designs. Not exact copies of historical armour.

 

2.) You are against realistic/reasonably functional designs in general, you said so a few times, you find it bland and boring. You require huge shoulder pads and spikes, because they're "cool". No idea why you're suddenly grouping yourself with the people wanting both.

 

Anyway, wanting both reasonable and spiky/nonsensical designs is equally retarded.

 

Actually, I stated that only the higher end stuff should be crazy looking, but I can see how you might get confused. The earlier things you find should obviously be bland and boring; else there would be no sense of escalation, and no, going from plate mail to plate mail with gold inlay isn't my idea of improvement.

 

On the other hand, you have just now (again) stated that you only want things the way you like them because compromise is apparently retarded.

 

But isn't going from platemail made of pig iron to platemail made of fine steel are rather significant improvement? Or how about general stock platemail/scavanged platemail and made-to-order platemail? Those are realistic differences amongst a single armor category that could reasonably impact the effectiveness of the equipment.

[Dream]

 

But isn't going from platemail made of pig iron to platemail made of fine steel are rather significant improvement? Or how about general stock platemail/scavanged platemail and made-to-order platemail? Those are realistic differences amongst a single armor category that could reasonably impact the effectiveness of the equipment.

 

How are they going to be any different visually though? Yea, if this was Age of Empires or Total War that would make sense, but this is a fantasy game. Having the only change from level 1 to the final boss be your armor is called Adamantite Plate instead of Iron Plate with a different color tint is boring.

[UncleBourbon]

But isn't going from platemail made of pig iron to platemail made of fine steel are rather significant improvement? Or how about general stock platemail/scavanged platemail and made-to-order platemail? Those are realistic differences amongst a single armor category that could reasonably impact the effectiveness of the equipment.

 

How are they going to be any different visually though? Yea, if this was Age of Empires or Total War that would make sense, but this is a fantasy game. Having the only change from level 1 to the final boss be your armor is called Adamantite Plate instead of Iron Plate with a different color tint is boring.

 

Well, it can be a bother, I suppose. I mean, the design is unlikely to change terribly much, as most innovations granted by advanced materials would probably lead to a new category of armor (armor of comfort or command, for example, or armor of mobility, which were mechanically close to full/half plate in NWN/2, but visually distinct). That said, I would like some distinct visual, but Dragon Age really took it to the extreme, and it left me sometimes regretting upgrading because the new armor looked gaudy, or wondering how these ancient magical robes somehow look exactly like those for sale in Denerim. Maybe unique items will fall in this category - something we say in Fallout 3 and New Vegas - which some were visually different.

[Karranthain]

But isn't going from platemail made of pig iron to platemail made of fine steel are rather significant improvement? Or how about general stock platemail/scavanged platemail and made-to-order platemail? Those are realistic differences amongst a single armor category that could reasonably impact the effectiveness of the equipment.

 

How are they going to be any different visually though? Yea, if this was Age of Empires or Total War that would make sense, but this is a fantasy game. Having the only change from level 1 to the final boss be your armor is called Adamantite Plate instead of Iron Plate with a different color tint is boring.

 

Well, it can be a bother, I suppose. I mean, the design is unlikely to change terribly much, as most innovations granted by advanced materials would probably lead to a new category of armor (armor of comfort or command, for example, or armor of mobility, which were mechanically close to full/half plate in NWN/2, but visually distinct). That said, I would like some distinct visual, but Dragon Age really took it to the extreme, and it left me sometimes regretting upgrading because the new armor looked gaudy, or wondering how these ancient magical robes somehow look exactly like those for sale in Denerim. Maybe unique items will fall in this category - something we say in Fallout 3 and New Vegas - which some were visually different.

 

Or you'd start from leather, then move onto brigandine which would be superceded by chain. After that you could have a cuirass and then, finally, move onto full plate. When you add several different designs to each of those tiers, you end up with more than enough choices. In fact, it'd probably be too much.

 

As an added bonus, reaching plate armour would feel special.

[Dream]

But isn't going from platemail made of pig iron to platemail made of fine steel are rather significant improvement? Or how about general stock platemail/scavanged platemail and made-to-order platemail? Those are realistic differences amongst a single armor category that could reasonably impact the effectiveness of the equipment.

 

How are they going to be any different visually though? Yea, if this was Age of Empires or Total War that would make sense, but this is a fantasy game. Having the only change from level 1 to the final boss be your armor is called Adamantite Plate instead of Iron Plate with a different color tint is boring.

 

Well, it can be a bother, I suppose. I mean, the design is unlikely to change terribly much, as most innovations granted by advanced materials would probably lead to a new category of armor (armor of comfort or command, for example, or armor of mobility, which were mechanically close to full/half plate in NWN/2, but visually distinct). That said, I would like some distinct visual, but Dragon Age really took it to the extreme, and it left me sometimes regretting upgrading because the new armor looked gaudy, or wondering how these ancient magical robes somehow look exactly like those for sale in Denerim. Maybe unique items will fall in this category - something we say in Fallout 3 and New Vegas - which some were visually different.

 

Pretty much. Have the mass produced stuff be functional and realistic but have the unique things at the ends of dungeons or in dragon hoards or forged by Cromwell (or his equivalent) be unique and fantastic looking. Even then they could do a range of how crazy they make the unique things look from the fairly muted armor commissioned by some long dead legendary assassin to the rather out there armor of a demon lord.

 

Or you'd start from leather, then move onto brigandine which would be superceded by chain. After that you could have a cuirass and then, finally, move onto full plate. When you add several different designs to each of those tiers, you end up with more than enough choices. In fact, it'd probably be too much.

 

As an added bonus, reaching plate armour would feel special.

 

And what would the rogue/thief/whatever's progression look like? Leather to leather to leather? What about the casters'? Wool to silk?

Edited October 26, 2012 by Dream

[Karranthain]

And what would the rogue/thief/whatever's progression look like? Leather to leather to leather? What about the casters'? Wool to silk?

 

You do realize there won't be equipment restrictions in this game? Mages can wear plate if they wish etc.

 

If you want to create a wizard who wears plate armor and hacks away with a broadsword from behind a heavily-enhanced arcane veil, we want to let you do that.

 

source : http://www.kickstart...ty/posts/321413

 

Besides, with light (leather or cloth) armours, there's even more room for variety, actually. Some examples :

 

http://public.wsu.ed...Wizard01_01.jpg

 

http://mythicmktg.fi...-concept-04.jpg

 

http://images.mmosit...ces/WHnt_01.jpg

 

http://ageofreckonin...-concept-03.jpg

 

http://images.wikia....der5-Wizard.jpg

 

http://fc01.devianta..._by_daarken.jpg

 

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/o/2012/184/1/1/118922a2fe9cd46a8931f90244bb3a3c.jpg

 

Took about 3 minutes to find those, I'm sure Obsidian can do better

Edited October 26, 2012 by Karranthain

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

The trick to make armour and weapon design immersive and believable is, IMO, to make a mix of fantasy and reality. Something real like that looks fantastic, or something fantasy like that looks real. Because I find nothing more frustrating than characters waving christmas trees in their hands and wearing a coat of skulls and spikes, and why one may ask? Because it simply isn't believable that a set like that could keep the character alive in combat. And that, in turn, breaks my immersion.

 

Also, when we come to the subject of weapons and armor looking "badass" and awe inspiring, I can only say that if an equipment piece practicaly radiates and screams "badassery" it has been done wrong IMO. It has been taken too far. While something that has been designed to actually protect or kill in an practical manner will more likely look intimidating. Why? Because it looks like it can actually work, and that, at least in my case, creates much more respect and awe towards the piece of equipment in question. And usually it is apparent if the design was made with looks or functionality in mind, and when it is made with looks in mind, IMO the design turns rather bad because it usually turns out as "cool" looking, but far from the like that one could actually believe to accomplish the task it was made to do.

[Nonek]

Never understood this penchant for impractical armour, the first point of call for armour is that it be as light as possible, maneuverable and unrestrictive as possible. Adding spikes and other pointless decorations would work against these principles, they serve no purpose except to restrict movement and add weight to the suit, so why would any thinking armourer add them or a fighter whose life depends upon said armour request it?

 

If flash and decoration are required, just look to some of the armours pictured in this very thread, enamelling, fluting and intricate carving can be added to them to make them works of art such as the Sutton Hoo helm or Henry the Eighth's ceremonial plate armour, as seen in the royal armouries up in Leeds, England. The childish and frankly silly aesthetics of the ridiculous armours seen in all too many modern games (such as Kingdoms of Amalur/Dragon Age) really needs to be killed off with fire, and the ground they sprang from salted in their wake.

[Dronios]

Never understood this penchant for impractical armour, the first point of call for armour is that it be as light as possible, maneuverable and unrestrictive as possible. Adding spikes and other pointless decorations would work against these principles, they serve no purpose except to restrict movement and add weight to the suit, so why would any thinking armourer add them or a fighter whose life depends upon said armour request it?

 

If flash and decoration are required, just look to some of the armours pictured in this very thread, enamelling, fluting and intricate carving can be added to them to make them works of art such as the Sutton Hoo helm or Henry the Eighth's ceremonial plate armour, as seen in the royal armouries up in Leeds, England. The childish and frankly silly aesthetics of the ridiculous armours seen in all too many modern games (such as Kingdoms of Amalur/Dragon Age) really needs to be killed off with fire, and the ground they sprang from salted in their wake.

No accounting for tastes . . .

[Karranthain]

And since light armour was mentioned, here's another interesting design :

 

[Tsuga C]

Olivier Ledroit of Requiem Chevalier Vampire fame (if you have not read it, DO).

Ostentatious? Yes, but look into more of this guy's stuff and you would have wished bringing him on board was one of the stretch goals.

 

If this sort of patently over-the-top silliness was slated for P:E, I'd be demanding my Kickstarter pledge back, pronto! Although I can appreciate the baroque level of detail that went into their creation, all of those works go beyond stretching my credulity and shatter it into its constituent atoms. That sort of thing might be acceptable and even desirable by Goth wannabes in the junior high crowd, but... I would certainly hope that P:E has a much more mature target demographic.

[Merlkir]

It IS a strawman, I never said ALL designs should be historical. (which is what you accuse me of)

 

1.) I'm not against designs which are fantastical. I'm against designs which are retarded. If it's magical, if it makes sense in the world of PE, fine. It has been stated a few times that we'd like some historical influence, practical thought behind the designs. Not exact copies of historical armour.

 

2.) You are against realistic/reasonably functional designs in general, you said so a few times, you find it bland and boring. You require huge shoulder pads and spikes, because they're "cool". No idea why you're suddenly grouping yourself with the people wanting both.

 

Anyway, wanting both reasonable and spiky/nonsensical designs is equally retarded.

 

Actually, I stated that only the higher end stuff should be crazy looking, but I can see how you might get confused. The earlier things you find should obviously be bland and boring; else there would be no sense of escalation, and no, going from plate mail to plate mail with gold inlay isn't my idea of improvement.

 

On the other hand, you have just now (again) stated that you only want things the way you like them because compromise is apparently retarded.

 

Do you have trouble understanding text, or is that yet another strawman? Read 1) again and then the last sentence. It's not "compromise" that's retarded, it's mixing of reasonable stuff with impractical nonsense. If you can have both reasonable realistic practical design and acceptably over the top fantastical design, why taint it with spiky crap that doesn't make sense? Couldn't the fans of fantastical designs be satisfied without nonsense and spikes?

 

 

And since light armour was mentioned, here's another interesting design :

 

 

 

 

:D two great examples of the single nonsensical pauldron. Good, thanks! I'll use those in a future article.

(I'm not dissing the designs otherwise, they look fine. Kinda Witchery..it's just the lone pauldrons which I find so amusing.)

Edited October 26, 2012 by Merlkir

[Karranthain]

:D two great examples of the single nonsensical pauldron. Good, thanks! I'll use those in a future article.

(I'm not dissing the designs otherwise, they look fine. Kinda Witchery..it's just the lone pauldrons which I find so amusing.)

 

Yeah, I knew you'd comment on that They do look Witcher-ish, I agree.

[Jarmo]

To add my bit on the realistic, mundane vs fantastic, wild debate, I'd like to see 3 basic categories.

 

The weapons and equipment used by:

 

 

Military.

 

Down to earth, based on historic designs, not necessarily a direct copy but I wouldn't mind if it were.

Padded armor and other ungodly uncomfortable stuff at low end, pretty plain hauberks and stuff at the higher end.

This stuff also trickles down to common folks, brigands and the like.

 

 

Adventurers.

 

And some mercenaries, maybe some lords and such. Realistic, but more wild, brash and arrogant, more comfortable.

Leopard skins, embedded gems, embroideries, embossing, most magic items should fall into this category.

This is stuff to show off, brag about your wealth and uniqueness and gather attention. It's also the gear the adventurers

wear pretty much all the time, not just for the occasional campaign/battle or during guard duty, so comfort is important.

Protection and combat utility is also paramount, but there's surprise value in having something offbeat.

 

Necromancers, demons, evil overlords, vampire enchantresses, angels and deva

 

The primary concern is the looks. You want to keep the orcs in line, maybe you just don't care if you show too much cleavage

since you have immunity to normal weapons anyway. The weapons can be quite a bit larger than normal, if you have the power of

ten men. Just go wild with the stuff. But newtonian physics should still apply, action-reaction and stuff. If you swing a weapon heavier

than yourself, you're swinged yourself by the counterforce. The leather corset might have magic enhancements, but if it doesn't cover

you it wont protect you either. These would end up in adventurer use through looting, might have value and use, but should have the

negative sides also.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Jarmo

[HoonDing]

 

+ Male Gaze

 

equals

 

 

do eet obsidian

[Karranthain]

To add my bit on the realistic, mundane vs fantastic, wild debate, I'd like to see 3 basic categories.

 

The weapons and equipment used by:

 

 

Military.

 

Down to earth, based on historic designs, not necessarily a direct copy but I wouldn't mind if it were.

Padded armor and other ungodly uncomfortable stuff at low end, pretty plain hauberks and stuff at the higher end.

This stuff also trickles down to common folks, brigands and the like.

 

 

Adventurers.

 

And some mercenaries, maybe some lords and such. Realistic, but more wild, brash and arrogant, more comfortable.

Leopard skins, embedded gems, embroideries, embossing, most magic items should fall into this category.

This is stuff to show off, brag about your wealth and uniqueness and gather attention. It's also the gear the adventurers

wear pretty much all the time, not just for the occasional campaign/battle or during guard duty, so comfort is important.

Protection and combat utility is also paramount, but there's surprise value in having something offbeat.

 

Necromancers, demons, evil overlords, vampire enchantresses, angels and deva

 

The primary concern is the looks. You want to keep the orcs in line, maybe you just don't care if you show too much cleavage

since you have immunity to normal weapons anyway. The weapons can be quite a bit larger than normal, if you have the power of

ten men. Just go wild with the stuff. But newtonian physics should still apply, action-reaction and stuff. If you swing a weapon heavier

than yourself, you're swinged yourself by the counterforce. The leather corset might have magic enhancements, but if it doesn't cover

you it wont protect you either. These would end up in adventurer use through looting, might have value and use, but should have the

negative sides also.

 

Allow me to add accompanying images for your post.

 

Military.

 

Adventurers.

 

Necromancers, demons, evil overlords, vampire enchantresses, angels and deva

 

Would that be close to what you had in mind?