Live recorded music, Poll 2.0

[deamon451]

We could always bring in Bear McCreary. He does a lot of stuff using ethnic instruments (see Battlestar Galactica or Dark Void). Or Greg Edmonson (Firefly and the Uncharted series).

 

Not bashing you Justin but just throwing out folks that have dealt with constraints (no live orchestra) and still provided some great music (IMHO).

[descalabro]

I fail to understand why Obsidian is going to spend money with live instrumentation if they reach 4million considering most people on this poll voted NOT to spend money on that and also considering Justin Bell said "It's impossible to fake, though you can get *pretty* close with virtual instruments." You know, most people can't tell the difference when it's done right. And very often the recording of ensembles gets worse results than those recorded for VST's purposes.

 

Maybe they wanted it from the beginning and they thought the other options got enough votes, but on the other hand they've always made it look like this game would be a fairly small investment in which any dollar would count, and considering how close to the real thing VST's have become lately, it really makes me question how much of these poll results are they taking into account. Maybe they'll just record some strings so that articulations sound more fluid. I hope they won't spend a lot on this, because the votes didn't ask for it...

Edited October 16, 2012 by descalabro

[Emeraude]

Pledge retracted !

 

Oh, who am I kidding ?

 

Happy for you all. Still spamming friends about the project. Mad I can't seem to watch those streams though.

[Ieo]

I fail to understand why Obsidian is going to spend money with live instrumentation if they reach 4million considering most people on this poll voted NOT to spend money on that

 

Well, it's true, you did fail to understand the poll:

 

41 votes for no inclusion of live instrumentation

 

101 votes for some kind of live instrumentation

 

25 votes not caring

 

Just for the top poll.

[descalabro]

I fail to understand why Obsidian is going to spend money with live instrumentation if they reach 4million considering most people on this poll voted NOT to spend money on that

 

Well, it's true, you did fail to understand the poll:

 

41 votes for no inclusion of live instrumentation

 

101 votes for some kind of live instrumentation

 

25 votes not caring

 

Just for the top poll.

 

Then you're just pointing out how biased this poll was? Thanks for showing us that.

[Ieo]

I fail to understand why Obsidian is going to spend money with live instrumentation if they reach 4million considering most people on this poll voted NOT to spend money on that

 

Well, it's true, you did fail to understand the poll:

 

41 votes for no inclusion of live instrumentation

 

101 votes for some kind of live instrumentation

 

25 votes not caring

 

Just for the top poll.

 

Then you're just pointing out how biased this poll was? Thanks for showing us that.

 

What was the bias? The break-out was suggested by Bell because small ensemble/solo is a lot cheaper than orchestral. A "no" option is clearly included.

 

I'm just pointing out your failure to understand numbers.

[Cantousent]

I immediately upped my pledge by $20 just on the notion that we'd get some live instrumentation at $4Mil. I'm not rich. Yeah, it's not like I live hand to mouth, but the money I pledge *will* mean money I can't spend elsewhere, so I want to make it count for something. This is one case, and maybe the only one, where I will say authoritatively that a lot of the players say one thing, but it's not really true. Good music can make a game. It is becoming more vital, not less. I stopped pestering about live music because I got the impression that maybe it would be better to let the matter drop, but it has never stopped being an issue for me and I am extremely happy at the prospect of live music, not necessarily because the synthesized music would be bad. I'm sure it will be used extensively and well throughout the project, but because dedicating the funds and time, even modestly, to live instrumentation shows that Obsidian is taking the music seriously.

[descalabro]

I fail to understand why Obsidian is going to spend money with live instrumentation if they reach 4million considering most people on this poll voted NOT to spend money on that

 

Well, it's true, you did fail to understand the poll:

 

41 votes for no inclusion of live instrumentation

 

101 votes for some kind of live instrumentation

 

25 votes not caring

 

Just for the top poll.

 

Then you're just pointing out how biased this poll was? Thanks for showing us that.

 

What was the bias? The break-out was suggested by Bell because small ensemble/solo is a lot cheaper than orchestral. A "no" option is clearly included.

 

I'm just pointing out your failure to understand numbers.

 

A poll like this is biased because you have 1 "no" option, 3 "yes" implied options and 1 "don't care" options. First poll section should merely be 1 "no", 1 "yes" and 1 "don't care". THEN we should have the specific preferences for options "no" and "yes". Examples for "yes": 'full score', 'small ensembles', 'just the required musicians for instruments which don't sound as natural when sequenced'; examples for "no": 'synth based music', 'mostly plucked strings and percussion/piano', 'full score of virtual instruments' etc.

[Cantousent]

The number of options for some music doesn't do anything to the 'no' option. If you don't want live music, there's no where else to go. The poll would be biased by reducing the number of options for live music because there is a spread. So you want a poll that has "live music yes or no?" That's far more biased, Des. ...And I can't believe that you're here complaining about live instrumentation, one of a list of things at the $4Million level. Instead of being happy that the project is so stunningly successful, you're going to spend your time here crying about one aspect of the last update? Go and celebrate that the things you *did* want were included and don't waste your time here weeping because one item, out of so many, was included contrary to what you *didn't* want.

[descalabro]

I immediately upped my pledge by $20 just on the notion that we'd get some live instrumentation at $4Mil. I'm not rich. Yeah, it's not like I live hand to mouth, but the money I pledge *will* mean money I can't spend elsewhere, so I want to make it count for something. This is one case, and maybe the only one, where I will say authoritatively that a lot of the players say one thing, but it's not really true. Good music can make a game. It is becoming more vital, not less. I stopped pestering about live music because I got the impression that maybe it would be better to let the matter drop, but it has never stopped being an issue for me and I am extremely happy at the prospect of live music, not necessarily because the synthesized music would be bad. I'm sure it will be used extensively and well throughout the project, but because dedicating the funds and time, even modestly, to live instrumentation shows that Obsidian is taking the music seriously.

 

VSTs do not mean synthesized music: synths can be either analogical, fully electronic or VSTs (either sampled from one of the previous or completely generated from pure sound waves inside the computer). Games for which composers have used orchestral VSTs usually don't have any relation to synths at all. I wish people would be better informed about this.

[Cantousent]

VSTs do not mean synthesized music: synths can be either analogical, fully electronic or VSTs (either sampled from one of the previous or completely generated from pure sound waves inside the computer). Games for which composers have used orchestral VSTs usually don't have any relation to synths at all. I wish people would be better informed about this.

How does that make any difference at all? Bell, and the management, apparently believes that live instrumentation will add to the game. So, out of everything here on this board, out of every feature, item, or experience you'd like to have, you're here griefing in this thread about the inclusion of live music in some capacity or another? ...And complaining about me because I'm not something I have never claimed to be... an expert in the field. I mean, I guess you can keep coming here to complain because your point of view lost out at the end *assuming we even hit $4Mil* but it's just plain small. At the end of the day, des, I'm here celebrating something I really wanted to see. At the end of a hugely successful kickstarter campaign, you're here trying to convince me that I was wrong to want it? Go, be happy, think of the things you want to see and don't begrudge me celebrating something I really wanted to have.

[descalabro]

The number of options for some music doesn't do anything to the 'no' option. If you don't want live music, there's no where else to go. The poll would be biased by reducing the number of options for live music because there is a spread. So you want a poll that has "live music yes or no?" That's far more biased, Des. ...And I can't believe that you're here complaining about live instrumentation, one of a list of things at the $4Million level. Instead of being happy that the project is so stunningly successful, you're going to spend your time here crying about one aspect of the last update? Go and celebrate that the things you *did* want were included and don't waste your time here weeping because one item, out of so many, was included contrary to what you *didn't* want.

 

First of all, I'm not weeping for anything, i'm merely expressing my opinion, because I'm old enough not to weep for a computer game. I hope you are too. And second, as I have posted before, there were valuable sub-options for people who voted "yes" and for people who voted "no". Because if one person votes for "no live music", then he should know what the alternatives are as to what Virtual Studio Technology allows. And if one doesn't know, then there's a whole internet world of information about it.

 

And I would never be so arrogant as to trying to convince someone he's wrong for wanting something, I just feel this poll was biased because the voting options were not well balanced, and no one cared to explain the potential of VSTs. You know, most people used to complain about digital photography when it came out, and now even those people use it. Is it as good as analogical photography? No, but most people can't tell them apart.

 

Of course I'm glad this game is going to have live recorded music, but I have my concerns about that being the best option to spend money on. And I have every right to have those concerns even though it's up to developers to decide. This is "general discussion" about the game forum, and that's what I'm doing: discussing.

Edited October 16, 2012 by descalabro

[Emeraude]

I immediately upped my pledge by $20 just on the notion that we'd get some live instrumentation at $4Mil. I'm not rich. Yeah, it's not like I live hand to mouth, but the money I pledge *will* mean money I can't spend elsewhere, so I want to make it count for something. This is one case, and maybe the only one, where I will say authoritatively that a lot of the players say one thing, but it's not really true. Good music can make a game. It is becoming more vital, not less. I stopped pestering about live music because I got the impression that maybe it would be better to let the matter drop, but it has never stopped being an issue for me and I am extremely happy at the prospect of live music, not necessarily because the synthesized music would be bad. I'm sure it will be used extensively and well throughout the project, but because dedicating the funds and time, even modestly, to live instrumentation shows that Obsidian is taking the music seriously.

 

Again, I resent the idea that not wanting live instrumentation equates not caring about music (which was coded in the very questions of the poll, no "No, it will detract from the overall quality of the music of the game" option there).And again, glad for you all who are getting what you wanted. Hopefully we all end up satisfied by the end product.

[Cantousent]

I'm still young enough to weep over lots of things, I would guess, but never in public. :Cant's broad grin icon: ...But, and I'm being sincere, I wasn't trying to insult you with the weeping thing. Probably just overstated because I feel just as strongly about including the live instrumentation as you do about excluding it. No excuses, so I'll beg pardon.

 

As far as the poll goes, I think you've got it wrong. There is one option for no. I guess you could include an option for excluding sound alogether as a bottom end, but that's just getting a little silly. So, there's only one bottom to the entire idea: no live instrumentation. There is quite a spread regarding the implementation of live music. I guess, instead of no on the bottom, you could put full score as the initial question, such as "do you want the whole score done in live music?"

 

1. Yes.

2. No Small ensembles and soloists recordings

3. No Small ensembles and soloists with maybe some cheaper orchestra for parts where it's really needed.

4. No none at all.

4. Don't care.

 

I guess that would be better? ...But it's the exact same thing anyway. There's a spread between full score and none at all and the poll would be far worse if it only allowed the two extremes.

 

Again, I resent the idea that not wanting live instrumentation equates not caring about music (which was coded in the very questions of the poll, no "No, it will detract from the overall quality of the music of the game" option there).And again, glad for you all who are getting what you wanted. Hopefully we all end up satisfied by the end product.

Well, I'm torn between wanting to defend my position, which I still hold with conviction, and trying not to offend folks. Please take for granted I'm not trying to offend you. I'm just giving voice to a side that thinks that this may well increase the quality. I feel vindicated in that the composer and management see some value in live instrumentation as well, since there hasn't been a huge hue and cry for it and yet it has been an issue for them. Edited October 16, 2012 by Cantousent

[LordCrash]

I fail to understand why Obsidian is going to spend money with live instrumentation if they reach 4million considering most people on this poll voted NOT to spend money on that and also considering Justin Bell said "It's impossible to fake, though you can get *pretty* close with virtual instruments." You know, most people can't tell the difference when it's done right. And very often the recording of ensembles gets worse results than those recorded for VST's purposes.

 

Maybe they wanted it from the beginning and they thought the other options got enough votes, but on the other hand they've always made it look like this game would be a fairly small investment in which any dollar would count, and considering how close to the real thing VST's have become lately, it really makes me question how much of these poll results are they taking into account. Maybe they'll just record some strings so that articulations sound more fluid. I hope they won't spend a lot on this, because the votes didn't ask for it...

Only 177 people voted in that poll.....but there are over 70,000 backers....not very representative that poll, don't you think?

 

I personally am happy about the live instruments. Nothing beats the power of a real audition!

[Ieo]

And I would never be so arrogant as to trying to convince someone he's wrong for wanting something, I just feel this poll was biased because the voting options were not well balanced, and no one cared to explain the potential of VSTs. You know, most people used to complain about digital photography when it came out, and now even those people use it. Is it as good as analogical photography? No, but most people can't tell them apart.

 

Of course I'm glad this game is going to have live recorded music, but I have my concerns about that being the best option to spend money on. And I have every right to have those concerns even though it's up to developers to decide. This is "general discussion" about the game forum, and that's what I'm doing: discussing.

 

It's a small poll. Forum polls aren't very good scientific indicators at all, so don't get so fixated on that.

 

You know, your post sounds just like those people who were against adding translations as part of a stretch goal. Notice, I said "part." The point of adding this to a stretch goal, just like the translations, is that the goal pays for itself. There is no waste. (At least, we hope Obsidian doesn't waste it.)

[descalabro]

And I would never be so arrogant as to trying to convince someone he's wrong for wanting something, I just feel this poll was biased because the voting options were not well balanced, and no one cared to explain the potential of VSTs. You know, most people used to complain about digital photography when it came out, and now even those people use it. Is it as good as analogical photography? No, but most people can't tell them apart.

 

Of course I'm glad this game is going to have live recorded music, but I have my concerns about that being the best option to spend money on. And I have every right to have those concerns even though it's up to developers to decide. This is "general discussion" about the game forum, and that's what I'm doing: discussing.

 

It's a small poll. Forum polls aren't very good scientific indicators at all, so don't get so fixated on that.

 

You know, your post sounds just like those people who were against adding translations as part of a stretch goal. Notice, I said "part." The point of adding this to a stretch goal, just like the translations, is that the goal pays for itself. There is no waste. (At least, we hope Obsidian doesn't waste it.)

 

I guess you're right, and like I said, I'm glad the game's going to have live recordings.

 

I should point to the first poll about this subject, where Bell's post is shown:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61018-would-you-like-to-see-orchestral-score-as-a-stretch-goal/page__mode__show

 

I hadn't even listened to those samples before. The second one sounds truly amazing, but getting such results from a virtual instrument is truly a challenge, and it seems to take longer than recording it live, even though it's obviously cheaper.

[Monarchist]

Though I wholeheartedly enjoy the use of live recording with full orchestral accompaniment, it certainly isn't necessary. A small ensemble, replete with virtuoso soloists, should be enough to engage most players & communicate setting-appropriate atmosphere.

 

Besides, most video game scores aren't exactly symphonic masterpieces, so I'm not expecting the kind of emotion or complexity from PE's music that I would from, say, Elgar's Enigma Variations (which also allows, if necessary due to budget issues, technically inferior conductors/ensembles to be retained). Remember, perfection of gameplay & plot are tantamount to the success of this project; score is but a superfluous bell upon our neatly built bicycle for ~73,000.

[Rahelron]

It's difficoult, even for huge music productions with live classical instruments, to cost more than 100k dollars. Ok, if they hired the Berliner Philharmoniker or another world famous orchestra they would spend more than that, but I don't think they need to do that to include a live soundtrack into the game. So I think that Obsidian studios can give us a great live soundtrack without using too much money. IMHO it would be a welcome addition to the game.

[Casey Edwards]

It's difficoult, even for huge music productions with live classical instruments, to cost more than 100k dollars. Ok, if they hired the Berliner Philharmoniker or another world famous orchestra they would spend more than that, but I don't think they need to do that to include a live soundtrack into the game. So I think that Obsidian studios can give us a great live soundtrack without using too much money. IMHO it would be a welcome addition to the game.

 

$100k for JUST the orchestra... maybe. I've said this before, but the last budget I saw for a AAA video game during my internship was $100k-150k JUST for the orchestra. Then you have to add the costs for score prep, orchestrators, engineers, conductor, mixing and mastering, assistants, costs of physical CD printing, and then any other on-site musicians they'd need to hire for live vocals/choir or ethnic winds or percussion, for example, that they don't want directly mixed with the orchestra. And like I said before also, this doesn't even cover the payment for the composer him/her/themselves. There is a lot more that goes into it than just 'hiring an orchestra'. More than likely they're all union musicians too, so those costs pay for medical, dental, etc.

[Ieo]

It's difficoult, even for huge music productions with live classical instruments, to cost more than 100k dollars. Ok, if they hired the Berliner Philharmoniker or another world famous orchestra they would spend more than that, but I don't think they need to do that to include a live soundtrack into the game. So I think that Obsidian studios can give us a great live soundtrack without using too much money. IMHO it would be a welcome addition to the game.

 

$100k for JUST the orchestra... maybe. I've said this before, but the last budget I saw for a AAA video game during my internship was $100k-150k JUST for the orchestra. Then you have to add the costs for score prep, orchestrators, engineers, conductor, mixing and mastering, assistants, costs of physical CD printing, and then any other on-site musicians they'd need to hire for live vocals/choir or ethnic winds or percussion, for example, that they don't want directly mixed with the orchestra. And like I said before also, this doesn't even cover the payment for the composer him/her/themselves. There is a lot more that goes into it than just 'hiring an orchestra'. More than likely they're all union musicians too, so those costs pay for medical, dental, etc.

 

 

Well, Justin had this to say about costs:

 

Just curious when you say prohibitively expensive. As in... up to say a quarter of the budget!!?? What sort of figure would we be talking??

 

No no, not that much at all. A budget for a hollywood caliber orchestra can cost as much as 80-100k+ for a full orchestra (80+ musicians), conductor, engineer, orchestrator, copyists etc for about 60-ish minutes of music. Which is lots of money, especially for a game like Project Eternity.

 

But there are ways to bring that price down significantly. The size of the ensemble, their international location, and other factors play into that. In otherwords, there are options, and the example I gave of the "prohibitively expensive" orchestra is definitely on the higher side of those options.

[Tsuga C]

Bring on the authenticity of period-type musical instruments. They add a great deal to the ambience. Think of the Norwegian Hardanger fiddle in The Two Towers. It was highly evocative and moving.

[JayDGee]

the 4 million target is hit so live music will be used. that is all we know

[Chunkyman]

Thank god, I have been wanting live music since the beginning.

[Oerwinde]

I say use what fits. Maybe main theme and battle music be full orchestra, the rest can use a variety of digital and live sessions