Magic: Limited Casting?

[Tigranes]

I like the backlash idea in general, and, depending on how the lore deals with souls, you could easily have different forms of backlash effect any character, magic or not, and have that replace 'fatigue' (and also reprise resting).

 

E.g. you can use a powerful spell or fighter ability at any point, but if you are already tired and have expended many spells, the backlash may be as severe as a permanent loss of attributes, while in more reasonable cases, the backlash would be more temporary, such as lasting a few turns. So even within a single battle, you may not want to start with your 3 best spells all the time, as even when fully rested, it would impose 3 sets of temporary backlashes (e.g. immobile mage + null dodge + decreased casting speed). Though each backlash is minor on its own, lasting only a few turns, it would make you think not just about what spell you cast this turn, but how you cast spells throughout the course of the battle.

 

The notion of souls as used in PE already introduce the notion of essential expenditure, of using something vital to your life-force to exert power, so in whatever form, it'll be nice to see this kind of backlash economy become prominent, instead of the typical "I have 5 spells, now I have 4 spells".

[tamimh]

beware of the belittlement of magic.

A mage is not a machine gun of fireballs.

[Gatt9]

This poll is somewhat flawed. The first option should be just YES or NO. After that a second question, if YES then pick one the X options.

 

Anywho, I like what Tim is putting forward. It is basically a variant of the 4E rules for handling magic and abilities - At-will, Encounter and Daily powers.

 

I agree with the first sentence.

 

But I'd question the wisdom of using 4th edition D&D as a template.

 

The issue continues to be that one group wants their mage doing something at all times, the other wants the mage to be a tactical nuke. There's no resolution to this, there's no middle ground. The mage class will either have to become identical in damage and effect to the fighter in order to retain balance, which then makes him fairly useless when you could simply have a fighter with far more health,, or we need to not try to design around Players who try and exploit the system and approach every encounter with maximum firepower.

 

This is an incredibly slippery slope, if we start designing around what a subset of Players do to min-max, we're going to end up in a very dark place when we eventually get around to designing out the Munchkins as that'll end up eliminating Magic Items from RPG's.

[ArchBeast]

A mage is not a machine gun of fireballs.

 

Then why the hell are they LEARNING magic for many YEARS ? For a fun ? Mages are suposed to live 200 to 400 years (or even more) An for all this years he can't remember Fire ball spell ? He can't cast a simple Fireball when he wants but he can burn dawn whole villige with fire storm spell ? I dont understand that logic.

 

If powerful mage must rest must rest after 3 fire arrows becouse his tired then haw he manage to cast firestorm spell 4 times ? i think that it takes 10000 fire arrows to do the same effect as Firestorm spell .... wheres logic in that ?

 

Fighter can swing sword when he want but if he whant to do pawerfull blow he cant do this every time becouse he must rest he will simply get tired. I undersdand that 1 or even 8 lvl mage don't remember everything or can't swing spell all the time becouse he also get tired (on mystical level) and he don't have big power yet. But 40 lvl mage like Elminster shoud pull fireball in suth dificulty as farting and i don't know anywon who must rest before he farts again.

Edited October 14, 2012 by ArchBeast

[qstoffe]

PE is a single player game not an MMO. They don't have to balance classes so that a spellcaster is equally powerful to a fighter in each battle.

 

Looking at BG2 which is my favourite RPG, I liked the fact that spellcasters were powerful when they had all their spells available and "useless" when they were out of spells. It added depth to the game and made me play them with care.

 

This in spades!

 

This cannot be stressed enough. I'm so sick and tired of all games that balances all combat choices so notoriously similiarly that it really doesn't matter what you choose.

 

Interesting choices should be designed like traits with both pros and cons. The more similiar the pros and cons are the more boring the choice is to make. i.e. controlling a mage or fighter in BG2 is worlds apart, while in Dragon Age they are quite similiar due to so many similiar mechanics like spells/talents/coolsdowns/damage output etc.

 

All I'm saying is; this is a single player game. Don't be so afraid the make drastically different traits/mechanics between classes and other choices just because you're trying to make everything 100% equal. That might be fun in a deathmatch where competing is in focus but in a single player game it's more important to have meaningful choices. The mage class in BG2 is a perfect example of this.

 

The issue continues to be that one group wants their mage doing something at all times, the other wants the mage to be a tactical nuke. There's no resolution to this, there's no middle ground.

 

This sums it up nicely. I want it the way BG2 did it. Period.

Edited October 14, 2012 by qstoffe

[Volourn]

Unlimited low level spells is not cool. This means either low magic will completely be near useless aty higher levels or it will be overpowered. Vancian magic for the win.

[Osvir]

A mage is not a machine gun of fireballs.

 

Then why the hell are they LEARNING magic for many YEARS ? For a fun ? Mages are suposed to live 200 to 400 years (or even more) An for all this years he can't remember Fire ball spell ? He can't cast a simple Fireball when he wants but he can burn dawn whole villige with fire storm spell ? I dont understand that logic.

 

If powerful mage must rest must rest after 3 fire arrows becouse his tired then haw he manage to cast firestorm spell 4 times ? i think that it takes 10000 fire arrows to do the same effect as Firestorm spell .... wheres logic in that ?

 

Fighter can swing sword when he want but if he whant to do pawerfull blow he cant do this every time becouse he must rest he will simply get tired. I undersdand that 1 or even 8 lvl mage don't remember everything or can't swing spell all the time becouse he also get tired (on mystical level) and he don't have big power yet. But 40 lvl mage like Elminster shoud pull fireball in suth dificulty as farting and i don't know anywon who must rest before he farts again.

 

What is it that Thalanthyr says now again after you've saved Melicamp?

 

EDIT:

He says something (not actual quote) along the lines of "It took me this many years to know when to use my power and when not to" (much better written in the game).

Edited October 14, 2012 by Osvir

[ArchBeast]

Unlimited low level spells is not cool. This means either low magic will completely be near useless aty higher levels or it will be overpowered.

 

Only if your put 40 lvl mage on the same power level as fighter.

 

Mages should be week before entering 14 lvl (get ass kick from all wariors the same lvl) but mages at 26 lvl shoud kick fighters as. Magic is something common but exclusiv (not everybody can cast spells) this should be hard way for everywon to start of course. But if we put magic and sword (who everybody can swing better or weeker but everybody) at the same lvl and say 40 lvl fighter and 40 lvl mage has the same power, everybody will put magic aside and "Meges" whould extinct...

[Volourn]

"Mages should be week before entering 14 lvl (get ass kick from all wariors the same lvl) but mages at 26 lvl shoud kick fighters as. Magic is something common but exclusiv (not everybody can cast spells) this should be hard way for everywon to start of course. But if we put magic and sword (who everybody can swing better or weeker but everybody) at the same lvl and say 40 lvl fighter and 40 lvl mage has the same power, everybody will put magic aside and "Meges" whould extinct... "

 

I disagree. A mage should always be more powerful than a warrior due to the actual nature of magic. I just don't think a warrior who swings a sword should be the equal in puire power to someone who uses mystical magical power. Of course, in contrast, if it's one on one in melee a warrior should be able to split the (low level) mage in two. This idea that that different classes should be equal is silly.

 

It's magic. Let it be magical. Spamming spells makes it lose its lustre, imo.

[elminster]

A mage is not a machine gun of fireballs.

 

Then why the hell are they LEARNING magic for many YEARS ? For a fun ? Mages are suposed to live 200 to 400 years (or even more) An for all this years he can't remember Fire ball spell ? He can't cast a simple Fireball when he wants but he can burn dawn whole villige with fire storm spell ? I dont understand that logic.

 

If powerful mage must rest must rest after 3 fire arrows becouse his tired then haw he manage to cast firestorm spell 4 times ? i think that it takes 10000 fire arrows to do the same effect as Firestorm spell .... wheres logic in that ?

 

Fighter can swing sword when he want but if he whant to do pawerfull blow he cant do this every time becouse he must rest he will simply get tired. I undersdand that 1 or even 8 lvl mage don't remember everything or can't swing spell all the time becouse he also get tired (on mystical level) and he don't have big power yet. But 40 lvl mage like Elminster shoud pull fireball in suth dificulty as farting and i don't know anywon who must rest before he farts again.

 

*farting*

 

OK, now to the topic:

 

I think that the mage system at all needs some new rules. First of all, I love mages. When I played Baldurs Gate 2 the most interesting character was the mage. His powers, even limited to a cast a certain number of spells (5 as normal mage, 6 as specialist) were unbelievable high. That was first because enemy mages were quiet dumb and second cause you knew when to use which spell (melfs acid arrow (lvl. 2) vs. mages, fireball / ligthning (lvl. 3) vs. group of enemies). If you unlimit the use of level 2 and 3 spells, the mage is overpowered.

 

I'm a fan of BG and I think introducing cooldowns wouldnt solve the problem as it destroys the meaning of rounds. So, how to solve this problem. I think the best way to restrict overpowering is limiting the spells a mage can use unlimited. That could be, speaking again of BG 2, some spells like Blindness, Alp (single), one reflected image (all lvl.1), Luck, Power word:sleep (all lvl.2), etc... The way you limit the spells could also mean that you implement choosing the unlimited spells.

 

Why doing so? First, it makes your wizard much more individual. The only other way to individualize you mage in BG 2 was choosing a school specialisation (gives u one more spell but always kicks some good spells) or dualclass your mage (most favorit: kensai, another way to overpower a mage). Secondly, it's a strategic choise in respect to some kind of enemies. F.e. blindness is good against fighters, alp is good to figth vs. more enemies at once.

 

What do I suggest as other kind of mage specialisation? Implement some spells that only some mages can use. That can be in respect from their school (chosen at the beginning), their race or in respect to some decisions later on (which group I join - magic groups could be implemented like the (nonmagic) shadowthieves or vampires in BG 2). Give us more spell levels (13-17 sounds good). Some low levels (1-5) have only spells u can later use unlimited. Some mid level (6-10) are used like in BG 2, u can memorize 5/6 spells. And some high levels (11-13/17), u can only use SOME spells, depending on the same things as mentioned above.

 

So, Elminster has spoken. Please comment, I hope u liked my ideas.

[ArchBeast]

"Mages should be week before entering 14 lvl (get ass kick from all wariors the same lvl) but mages at 26 lvl shoud kick fighters as. Magic is something common but exclusiv (not everybody can cast spells) this should be hard way for everywon to start of course. But if we put magic and sword (who everybody can swing better or weeker but everybody) at the same lvl and say 40 lvl fighter and 40 lvl mage has the same power, everybody will put magic aside and "Meges" whould extinct... "

 

I disagree. A mage should always be more powerful than a warrior due to the actual nature of magic. I just don't think a warrior who swings a sword should be the equal in puire power to someone who uses mystical magical power. Of course, in contrast, if it's one on one in melee a warrior should be able to split the (low level) mage in two. This idea that that different classes should be equal is silly.

 

It's magic. Let it be magical. Spamming spells makes it lose its lustre, imo.

 

So that part about equal classes i misunderstood .... then sory

 

But when it comes to spell spawning it all depends on how we understand the concept of magic :

 

1 option if magic is simply "Doing impossible things" like turning rocks to gold or walking on water, then even limitless fire storm spell is possible.

 

2 option if why understad magic as a technic knowledge of controling, creating and manipulating energy, matter, or natural and supernatural phenomena then it goes daw to "Haw is he doing it" :

 

a) use of remember or writhen "magical words" if only knowing words of some spell is required than also limitless fire storms can be possible.

 

b) useing power of "will" or mental power power, also it is possible for limitless high level spells but it will take "Some little more time" between spells especially if we assume that he has to concentrate/ focus on them very HARD before he cast this spell.

 

c) if we assume that he is useing some kind of "energy", mana or magical stamina it all goes daw to 3 things:

 

c1) if he is useing only own energy or he uses some energy of his surraudings.

 

c2) if he is progresing in proper management of this energy so spells cost less mana on 20 lvl then on 2 lvl or spell cost the same

 

c3) If his maximum amount of "Magical Stamina" is progressing and getting bigger each lvl or not.

 

 

We know that in P:E propably all topics in 2 option will be added. So after A + B we get ... limitless magic but quick cold-downs (he must wait some time before he focus again)

 

But after study of topic "C" we assume :

 

In worst case - mage is useing only his own energy, not progress in energy menagment so spells always cost the same and his magic stamina is not progressing. That means that 1 lvl mage and 40 lvl mage can cast the same amount of spells but 40 lvl mage know more of them.

 

In best case - Mage is useing his own energy and energy of his surrandings ( of course it is posibility of only useing surraunding but in this case he will be abe to cast limitless every kind of spell or will be too dependent on the environment and be able ony to cast fire ball when something is burning near him ) is progressing in energy menagment so spells cost less ech level and his max mana is progressing)

 

In this case we Could have mana on let's say 500 points, fire ball spell cost 10 and fire storm cost 200 in this case we will be able to cast 2 fire storms and 10 fire balls or 50 fire balls before we run down of mana.

 

Of course only IF we assume that mana is not Regenerating like stamina does. If it's not regenerating even resting will not restore our mana, only drinking potions or something like will restore it.

 

If we assume that mana IS regenerating then goes another problems.

 

1. Is mana regeneration fast or slow

2. Is mana regeneration progressing thru leveling up.

 

In bouth cases spells are limitless but you must wait until you "Regenerate" you mana.

 

So we have 2 opions

 

1. when you run dawn of mana even resting will not resore. To restore it you will need to drink potion or obtain mana from environment

2. You will have limitless magic but you will need to wait before you regenerate your mana.

Edited October 14, 2012 by ArchBeast

[ArchBeast]

I think that the mage system at all needs some new rules. First of all, I love mages. When I played Baldurs Gate 2 the most interesting character was the mage. His powers, even limited to a cast a certain number of spells (5 as normal mage, 6 as specialist) were unbelievable high. That was first because enemy mages were quiet dumb and second cause you knew when to use which spell (melfs acid arrow (lvl. 2) vs. mages, fireball / ligthning (lvl. 3) vs. group of enemies). If you unlimit the use of level 2 and 3 spells, the mage is overpowered.

 

Only IF :

1. There are no magical shids agins this type of spells

2. You have no resistence to them

3. Your foes are stupid

4. You fight week enemys

5. There are no counter spells

6. Enemy Mages are not useing the system:)

7. There are no "Magic" resistance in game

8. There are no strong enemy's like vampires or dragons

9. You are not beginer.

10. There are no foe's or classes that have abylitis for fighing a mages or counter them.

11. None of other class is overpowerd

 

So you right ELMINSTER has spoken

Edited October 14, 2012 by ArchBeast

[Giantevilhead]

One way the magic system could work is with a mana system where you can spend extra mana to make a spell free for the day. For example, a level 1 spell might cost 2 mana to cast each time but if you spend 20 mana, then that spell becomes free for the entire day.

[ArchBeast]

One way the magic system could work is with a mana system where you can spend extra mana to make a spell free for the day. For example, a level 1 spell might cost 2 mana to cast each time but if you spend 20 mana, then that spell becomes free for the entire day.

 

You still don't understad EVERY game has mana system even BG games, NWN and all other D&D games. Just in there are other explonation for mana system caled "slots" system/ teorie for putting it.

 

The "Slot"-system you don't have actual mana shown (like HP for example) but you have slots, numer of posible slots are progressing in 1 lvl you have less then on 30 lv, also Inteligence stat afects it and you have more "Slots" on 32 int then on 12 int.

 

The slot's system is used only for excusse Rest spawning for mages and nothing more. This "Slots" system theats mages like a sponge used to clean up when the sponge shove into the water it get's full of water, But when you press the sponge gets empty again and you have to put it back into the water.

 

The "slot" sysem is reasonable ONLY when we assume that Mages don't have own power and they must by Charged like battery, so besiacly they stole energy from other resorses "their soul when sleeping " or "from surrauding". I personaly don't like this idea becose i whant to be an independent powerfull unit an not same kinda Energy/mana stealer.

 

Of coure i like the idea that mages can take "some" energy from the environment but the CORE should be their own power. In that case it's reasonable that on 40 lvl mage we say "wow HE is powerfull mage !!" but in "Slots" system the only reasonable coment to 40 lvl mage is "Wow he suck the energy dry so hard im emprest he sucks better then anywon i ever meet WOOOOW ! " (don't get offendet it's only a cheap joke if some is then im sorry )

Edited October 15, 2012 by ArchBeast

[Lady Evenstar]

I want it the way BG2 did it. Period.

 

So you want mages to start around level 7 and have access to party members at the very beginning of the game, contrary to Obsidian's current plans?

 

The BG2 approach worked for BG2, especially since dual classing a human mage gave cheap access to fighter abilities, but class design inevitably limits content design. If you want the protagonist to start out alone--or face specific challenges alone--every class has to be able to handle those challenges successfully. I can't see the sorts of challenges that can be handled solo by a mage with one magic missile (or friends spell) per day being very interesting for classes that don't share the limitations you want to place on mages.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Lady Evenstar

[elminster]

I think that the mage system at all needs some new rules. First of all, I love mages. When I played Baldurs Gate 2 the most interesting character was the mage. His powers, even limited to a cast a certain number of spells (5 as normal mage, 6 as specialist) were unbelievable high. That was first because enemy mages were quiet dumb and second cause you knew when to use which spell (melfs acid arrow (lvl. 2) vs. mages, fireball / ligthning (lvl. 3) vs. group of enemies). If you unlimit the use of level 2 and 3 spells, the mage is overpowered.

 

Only IF :

1. There are no magical shids agins this type of spells

2. You have no resistence to them

3. Your foes are stupid

4. You fight week enemys

5. There are no counter spells

6. Enemy Mages are not useing the system:)

7. There are no "Magic" resistance in game

8. There are no strong enemy's like vampires or dragons

9. You are not beginer.

10. There are no foe's or classes that have abylitis for fighing a mages or counter them.

11. None of other class is overpowerd

 

So you right ELMINSTER has spoken

 

 

Ok, you're rigth with 9 - I'm not a beginner. I played BG 2 with the tactics mod on insane to make it a bit more challenging

 

1, 3 and 6 are pointing in the same directions - even if there are magical shields they are most likely not used, sometimes even by the player. In BG 2 the lvl. 1 shield spell protected against magic missile - but did you (know and) use it?

 

2 and 7 resistance is a good point but only affects some monsters - e.g. each spell strength develops against a certain type of enemies (who are not resistant). Magic resistance is good - but there is lower resistance etc..

 

4-8 I dont know what u mean by weak, dragons were ok but could be better on insane

 

5 counter spells are seldom used but e.g. always exist (smth. like spell turning)

 

10 figther magekiller in BG 2 was ridiculous - maybe monks

 

11 yes you're rigth - it's unfair talking just about mages in this way. To be honest, I hope that the mage implemented in PE is a bit like in BG 2 - because it was great

 

Ok, I'm just talking about BG 2 (what a great game ). I deinstalled Icewind Dale 1 & 2 after playing about 3 hours. I didnt like other rpgs cause of the environment (f.e. planescape torment) but tried some.

[elminster]

One way the magic system could work is with a mana system where you can spend extra mana to make a spell free for the day. For example, a level 1 spell might cost 2 mana to cast each time but if you spend 20 mana, then that spell becomes free for the entire day.

 

You still don't understad EVERY game has mana system even BG games, NWN and all other D&D games. Just in there are other explonation for mana system caled "slots" system/ teorie for putting it.

 

The "Slot"-system you don't have actual mana shown (like HP for example) but you have slots, numer of posible slots are progressing in 1 lvl you have less then on 30 lv, also Inteligence stat afects it and you have more "Slots" on 32 int then on 12 int.

 

The slot's system is used only for excusse Rest spawning for mages and nothing more. This "Slots" system theats mages like a sponge used to clean up when the sponge shove into the water it get's full of water, But when you press the sponge gets empty again and you have to put it back into the water.

 

The "slot" sysem is reasonable ONLY when we assume that Mages don't have own power and they must by Charged like battery, so besiacly they stole energy from other resorses "their soul when sleeping " or "from surrauding". I personaly don't like this idea becose i whant to be an independent powerfull unit an not same kinda Energy/mana stealer.

 

Of coure i like the idea that mages can take "some" energy from the environment but the CORE should be their own power. In that case it's reasonable that on 40 lvl mage we say "wow HE is powerfull mage !!" but in "Slots" system the only reasonable coment to 40 lvl mage is "Wow he suck the energy dry so hard im emprest he sucks better then anywon i ever meet WOOOOW ! " (don't get offendet it's only a cheap joke if some is then im sorry )

 

The point "taking energy from the environment" sounds interesting but just for priests. Priests could pray in a temple to memorize some spells. I agree that the core of mages should be their own power. Thats true mental / magic strength.

[elminster]

I want it the way BG2 did it. Period.

 

So you want mages to start around level 7 and have access to party members at the very beginning of the game, contrary to Obsidian's current plans?

 

The BG2 approach worked for BG2, especially since dual classing a human mage gave cheap access to fighter abilities, but class design inevitably limits content design. If you want the protagonist to start out alone--or face specific challenges alone--every class has to be able to handle those challenges successfully. I can't see the sorts of challenges that can be handled solo by a mage with one magic missile (or friends spell) per day being very interesting for classes that don't share the limitations you want to place on mages.

 

I dont think you have to start the game completely alone. I think its like in BG 1 oder BG 2 where u could recruit some compagnions at the beginning. Mages should be weak at the beginning and strong at the end (also to protect it a bit from being overpowered as dualclass). Of course you need some company in the beginning. And you should learn the true power of the low level spells which exists in some circumstances even for lvl.1 spells. If u examine better spells later on, u'll realize how migthy a mage is already when casting lvl.6 spells at BG 2 f.e..

[elminster]

Ok, its with cooldowns and grimoires - http://forums.obsidi...-with-tim-cain/ . Not exactly like in BG 2, but interesting and should make some sense. I'd like to see more details for grimoires.

 

Maybe no cooldowns in highest game difficulty (hopefully)?!

Edited October 15, 2012 by elminster

[ArchBeast]

4 post at 1 time woow im imprest

 

Ok, you're rigth with 9 - I'm not a beginner. I played BG 2 with the tactics mod on insane to make it a bit more challenging

 

My meaning was that "When you first play the game there are no such thing as "overpowerd"

 

1, 3 and 6 are pointing in the same directions - even if there are magical shields they are most likely not used, sometimes even by the player. In BG 2 the lvl. 1 shield spell protected against magic missile - but did you (know and) use it?

 

So at least one thing NWN1 was better then BG, Enemys USED magical shields often. And in NWN ther where spells that allways block some other spells espesialy "Magic missile" almost every magic def spell protected form this spell. Some enemys where even completly resistant to some kinds of demage example "Some spells giving 100% resistans on fire damege for some time".

 

If you played NWN you whould see haw "Slots" system was frustraiting in this game. Somtimes it was imposible for mage to win a battle at frist time and it push you to reload spawning the same like rest spawning. Becouse you encouter enemy of 100% resistence of fire and you only have Fire based demage spells, YOU KNEW the ice demage or tunder damage spell that will affect him but you can't use it becouse you suck only fire damage spell and can't change to other in my opinion this was kind of dump...

 

The "Slots" system only works for priests becouce they take energy from their gods so it's reasonable and they don't base their whole atack on magic, priest magic buffs and heal only in some cases are damage-dealers so it works.

 

But not for mages who is fully concentated on magic and many times damage-dealing magic ...

Edited October 15, 2012 by ArchBeast

[elminster]

4 post at 1 time woow im imprest

 

Ok, you're rigth with 9 - I'm not a beginner. I played BG 2 with the tactics mod on insane to make it a bit more challenging

 

My meaning was that "When you first play the game there are no such thing as "overpowerd"

 

1, 3 and 6 are pointing in the same directions - even if there are magical shields they are most likely not used, sometimes even by the player. In BG 2 the lvl. 1 shield spell protected against magic missile - but did you (know and) use it?

 

So at least one thing NWN1 was better then BG, Enemys USED magical shields often. And in NWN ther where spells that allways block some other spells espesialy "Magic missile" almost every magic def spell protected form this spell. Some enemys where even completly resistant to some kinds of demage example "Some spells giving 100% resistans on fire damege for some time".

 

If you played NWN you whould see haw "Slots" system was frustraiting in this game. Somtimes it was imposible for mage to win a battle at frist time and it push you to reload spawning the same like rest spawning. Becouse you encouter enemy of 100% resistence of fire and you only have Fire based demage spells, YOU KNEW the ice demage or tunder damage spell that will affect him but you can't use it becouse you suck only fire damage spell and can't change to other in my opinion this was kind of dump...

 

The "Slots" system only works for priests becouce they take energy from their gods so it's reasonable and they don't base their whole atack on magic, priest magic buffs and heal only in some cases are damage-dealers so it works.

 

But not for mages who is fully concentated on magic and many times damage-dealing magic ...

 

No need to be impressed - just to much time (I'm a student)

 

That with NWN1 is interesting. As enemies used magical shields often they seem to be a bit more intelligent than in BG2. I have bougth the game but its standing in my bookshelf for several years now...the fact thats not isometric but 3d scared me a bit. maybe I'll give it a try now. Fire damage was most common magic in BG 2 as well but only some enemies were immun to it (mostly fire elementals I think, in the expansion fire giants).

 

Hmm I liked the slot system but I think the way they are going to implement it (just a limited number of spell from each grade -> cooldowns) sounds ok. Actually you could trick enemy mages quiet easy in the slot system. You just had to go into range of a mage with magic protections and wait until he has cast (almost) all of his spells (of course this did not work if the mage could dispell your protections which was not very often), quiet possible with lvl. 5 spell protection from a magic school and lvl. 6 protection from magic energy.

[_dagger_]

No. The problem they are trying to address is a legitimate one: in the Infinity Engine, the melee types can deal damage indefinitely while the spellcasters become borderline useless after their spells are cast.

 

So what?

I cannot see why this is a problem. PE is a single player game not an MMO. They don't have to balance classes so that a spellcaster is equally powerful to a fighter in each battle.

 

Looking at BG2 which is my favourite RPG, I liked the fact that spellcasters were powerful when they had all their spells available and "useless" when they were out of spells. It added depth to the game and made me play them with care.

 

If the PC starts out solo they need sufficient abilities to deal with encounters. This can be handled either by giving mages abilities or by making the encounters so trivial that they can be completed by a mage poking things with a dagger. Personally, I much prefer the former approach.

 

Also, while it's true that classes needn't be equally useful in every encounter, they do need to feel comparably powerful overall. Few like to feel that the kind of character they prefer to play is less than useful. If you heap restrictions on mages compensation will be due.

 

 

I assume the major part of the game will be played using a party so I think that's what the developers should focus on.

In BG2 you gathered a group fairly quickly.

 

And in a party you typically have different strength and qualities in the different individuals, just like you have in different pieces in chess.

In BG2, wizards were one such piece which could be powerful if you played them right and "useless" if you played them bad.

 

Diversity makes a game more interesting and I hope PE will feature this a lot.

[Giantevilhead]

One way the magic system could work is with a mana system where you can spend extra mana to make a spell free for the day. For example, a level 1 spell might cost 2 mana to cast each time but if you spend 20 mana, then that spell becomes free for the entire day.

 

You still don't understad EVERY game has mana system even BG games, NWN and all other D&D games. Just in there are other explonation for mana system caled "slots" system/ teorie for putting it.

 

The "Slot"-system you don't have actual mana shown (like HP for example) but you have slots, numer of posible slots are progressing in 1 lvl you have less then on 30 lv, also Inteligence stat afects it and you have more "Slots" on 32 int then on 12 int.

 

The slot's system is used only for excusse Rest spawning for mages and nothing more. This "Slots" system theats mages like a sponge used to clean up when the sponge shove into the water it get's full of water, But when you press the sponge gets empty again and you have to put it back into the water.

 

The "slot" sysem is reasonable ONLY when we assume that Mages don't have own power and they must by Charged like battery, so besiacly they stole energy from other resorses "their soul when sleeping " or "from surrauding". I personaly don't like this idea becose i whant to be an independent powerfull unit an not same kinda Energy/mana stealer.

 

Of coure i like the idea that mages can take "some" energy from the environment but the CORE should be their own power. In that case it's reasonable that on 40 lvl mage we say "wow HE is powerfull mage !!" but in "Slots" system the only reasonable coment to 40 lvl mage is "Wow he suck the energy dry so hard im emprest he sucks better then anywon i ever meet WOOOOW ! " (don't get offendet it's only a cheap joke if some is then im sorry )

 

What are you talking about? How do I "still" not understand? This is my first post in this topic.

 

Also, whether or not the Vancian system is a mana system is a matter of semantics.

 

When most people talk about a mana system, they mean one that's more flexible, where a mage can cast any spell they want as long as they have enough mana, like the ones in Diablo, Wizardry, Might and Magic, etc.

[ArchBeast]

What are you talking about? How do I "still" not understand? This is my first post in this topic.

 

Also, whether or not the Vancian system is a mana system is a matter of semantics.

 

When most people talk about a mana system, they mean one that's more flexible, where a mage can cast any spell they want as long as they have enough mana, like the ones in Diablo, Wizardry, Might and Magic, etc.

 

Sorry man I misunderstood your post

[Gecimen]

No to limited spells. Yes to whatever cooldown/mana/casting time stuff.