My fwiw kickstarter economic analysis regarding the rift between the traditionalists and evolutionists

[Merin]

Then I saw the romances, the diaper-sex, the online monitoring of gaming, the BSN, the hordes of pant-wetting Buffy fans... and left. DA2 confirmed that Bio / EA was gone. It's like a zombie movie when you see that one of your close friends has been taken by the contagion and is now wandering around, groaning with bodyparts falling off.

But in regards to "hordes of pant-wetting Buffy fans", I are confuzed... ? Care to explain that one?

 

Yeah, I somewhat take offense at that one. Are fans of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and other fine Joss Whedon shows people who can't control their bladder?

[alanschu]

Well, given my occupation, it'd probably be hard to say that I'm not a "BioWarian."

 

Having said that, I can sort of see where you're coming from with the hunger analogy. I certainly wouldn't contribute $250+, mostly because I just can't afford it. After that though, I find things start to fall apart.

 

 

I don't think your two factions are really that mutually exclusive. I like the games BioWare makes, but I still like the old IE style games and recognize the advantages that they have. I also love Obsidian's writing style and frankly, the idea of having a bunch of geeked up Obsidianites that are passionate about making the game that they want to make without any restrictions seems very much like a game I would enjoy.

 

I love the IE games. Though I am not a particular fan of the AD&D ruleset, and find things liek Vancian magic to be absurd. But the stories and characters in BG2 and PST are so memorable to me, and that's what I'm looking for. So I couldn't care really two teets about what their combat system really is. I didn't mind BG2's combat, but Torments was pretty blah and frankly since BG2 I haven't even been a big fan of BioWare's combat. I still love their games though. My ideal RPG is one that minimized combat!

 

 

One thing I've definitely seen since this project went live (and I saw it on Wasteland 2) is this misconceived notion that because there's a non-trivial amount of gamers that want a game like the IE style games, they must want them all for the same reason. This idea that there was a consensus just isn't true, though. There isn't even a consensus over how the IE games themselves are presented. IWD is story-lite and focuses on being a dungeon crawl. PST is narrative driven * infinity! BG2 is kind of in between. Someone can contribute to this with PST being their favourite game while loathing IWD but they still consider themselves a fan of the IE games. So the idea of the "spirit" of the IE games is still somewhat nebulous.

 

What I do know, is I've enjoyed every Obsidian game I have played (never played DS3 though). I am a huge fan of their Black Isle legacy too. I am not super rich and made a reasonable donation that advantages me (I probably get the game less than if I bought it after release) and still benefits Obsidian (they get money up front which they can leverage into future money by making a fun game to sell). Obsidian has their vision and I trust them implicitly to make a game I enjoy. So I am willing to let them go at it.

[Cantousent]

I think DS3 is better than NWN2, to be honest, but I'm not really a fan of the NWN franchise altogether. I liked DA:O, which had pretty decent combat in my opinion.

[Gatt9]

I don't think your two factions are really that mutually exclusive. I like the games BioWare makes, but I still like the old IE style games and recognize the advantages that they have. I also love Obsidian's writing style and frankly, the idea of having a bunch of geeked up Obsidianites that are passionate about making the game that they want to make without any restrictions seems very much like a game I would enjoy.

 

Very well said Alan.

 

The two "Factions" are not mutually exclusive unless you're essentially a radical member of one of them. I started gaming on the Atari 2600, I was playing AD&D at 8 years old. I think Fallout 2 was the pinnacle of CRPG's, followed closely by Planescape.

 

I also loved KotoR, Mass Effect 1, and Dragon Age Origins. I enjoy Diablo.

 

Give me my choice, and I'll always choose Turn Based. But RT or RTwP systems, implemented because they make a better game (And not a marketing bullet point) are equally fine with me.

 

TBH, the only reason there's really an issue at all is because Publishers refuse to support anything other than what will appeal to 15 year olds. People are fighting because every title becomes precious when there are so few titles released, and even fewer that aren't being converted to Gears of War or Call of Duty. If there was actual diversity in the market, this would be a non-issue to all but a few, as it was nearly 15 years ago.

 

Anyways, Alan's right. The two factions are far more comingled than they are divided.

[Grimlorn]

*considers posting in thread*

 

*considers who started the thread*

 

*wants to add to conversation*

 

*doesn't want to engage with certain individuals...*

 

Uhm, I guess I'll just say I don't fit any of the "groupings" I've seen yet.

You belong in the Biotard group.

[metiman]

I'm not really aiming this at you, just building on that last point. There is definitely a group of traditionalists here that do seem to close their eyes to the flaws of the IE games.

 

I think the IE games were flawed in terms of combat mechanics. And with the exception of Torment, story as well. BG2's story and writing was juvenile and totally cringe worthy. IWD had practically no story at all. IWD2 was even worse. BG2 was the best in terms of combat IMO, but the AI wasn't very good. Sword Coast Strategems fixes the AI, but that's a mod.

 

If you want to improve on the IE formula you have to head in the direction of ToEE with it's clever, fun, and relatively sophisticated turn based combat with enemies that made a point of going after your weaker party members. Not in the direction of modern Bioware or Bethesda or Blizzard or even CD Projekt (roll playing) games. I think the point some people are missing is that, as flawed as they were, the IE games, or at least BG2, had much, much better combat and game mechanics than nearly (maybe just a few obscure exceptions) anything that has been made since. So the problem is that the modern games are even more imperfect. Designed specifically for fast nonstop action, twitch based, popamole, click-to-death, and frankly console combat. Modern combat mechanics are basically designed to be bad. The worse the combat is the more money the game tends to make. So it's understandable. Their whole point is to make combat suck as much as possible. At least if you see combat more as a game of chess than as some kind of console fighting game. Which brings us back to the factions. The strategic battlechess faction vs the nonstop action popamole faction.

[alanschu]

TBH, the only reason there's really an issue at all is because Publishers refuse to support anything other than what will appeal to 15 year olds.

 

I dislike this stereotype a lot. It's pretty much just a meme at this point: "There's something I disagree with/don't like on the internet. It must appeal to folks that are young and presumably immature."

 

 

While it is frustrating to see that publishers typically don't look at these styles of games due to their scale, I don't think the idea is to appeal to "the kiddies." Heck, when I was 15 I was probably a more hardcore gamer than I am now because I just had more time. I was playing Fallout and Ultima 7 and Baldur's Gate was only a few years away and I loved it then.

 

Gaming as a kids pastime I think is an element of the past. You can fairly get on the case of a publisher for trying to make their games more generally appealing to draw in the benefits of economies of scale, but I'd take out huge loans from loansharks to place a bet on the fact that most of the Call of Duty players are over the age of 20. That someone acts immature is more a reflection of internet anonymity than their actual age (which is depressing but that's neither here nor there.

[DocDoomII]

You are wrong their main focus is not 15 years old kids, it's casual players. And that's way some publishers stated that they are starting to go down the road of 'free to play' games.

The kind of games born on platforms like facebook and now are commonly called apps and are supported by any kind of mobile handled device.

This approach encompasses a vast amount of people and the games, are full of microtransaction options to progress inside them for people who are too impatient to play normally (or because the games are created to force you to spend money) , or just game-greedy and don't understand how much they end up paying because each transaction is just 0,99€/$.

[metiman]

Well 100% cooldown based magic is now confirmed. So my faction lost. Badly. Enjoy your victory and your modern games. I think I'll go replay BG2 with SCSII.

 

To the Traditionalists and Old Biowarians: If we want a real BG3 I think we are going to have to make it ourselves. Or maybe Inxile will do one.

[diablo169]

I still find the idea of there being factions laughable to be honest. I'm a massive fanboy for the older IE games and others like Arcanum. I still play them now. Doesnt mean this game won't still be enjoyable just because it's doing something different.

 

Not my ideal magic system either, but it might suprise you. It's not being designed for consoles at least like Dragon Age.

[metiman]

As far as where the lines are drawn for factions: whatever. As far as there being groups of people on these forums with similar opinions with respect to newer style or older style combat I think that is difficiult to plausibly deny. Even Sawyer had that impression. Also just because a combat system was not designed specifically for consoles does not mean it will be any different from one that is if the designers believe that a particular console combat system is superior, as does seem to be the case here.

 

In terms of factions I think I would definitely add:

1. People who like pretty much anything.

2. People who are picky about what games they like.

 

Perhaps those could be subfactions. I also mostly agree with MReeds analysis in terms of some people backing Obsidian and others backing a specific game with certain features. I was expecting a BG2 sequel with similar game mechanics. The system revealed in Cain's summary is nothing like the IE games at all.

[Uomoz]

Well we can't keep em all.. Bye!

[metiman]

Bye, Uomoz.

[Rink]

Well 100% cooldown based magic is now confirmed. So my faction lost. Badly. Enjoy your victory and your modern games. I think I'll go replay BG2 with SCSII.

 

To the Traditionalists and Old Biowarians: If we want a real BG3 I think we are going to have to make it ourselves. Or maybe Inxile will do one.

 

It is kind of funny how you not only express that everyone you would classify as traditionalist also liked the old spellsystem (you can't sleep here because there are enemies nearby/surprise attack in the middle of the night every time), but also that it was a fight between them and the other group, that fought for a system with cooldown. I haven't seen a lot of signs for both of those things

Actually I think the old BG system also was cooldown-system, just with a flexible timeline until you slept, I guess the new system isn't that different with the exeption that mages will now be useful not only at the start of the fights but also when a fight takes more time/has several phases.

 

BG3 for me has to include the characters and the world that we love anyway. I would like to see them again, maybe when they are 30 years older or something. But well, not in this game that is for certain and was that from the beginning of the campaign

[metiman]

You know I used to be a Biowarian myself. I was a huge fan of Bioware and David Gaider before they made Dragon Age and Mass Effect. If you want to interpret using up all of your spells and having to sleep as a kind of cooldown, fine, but there is a big difference between finding a safe spot to sleep and sleeping for 8 hours and just having to wait a few rounds before you get all of your spells back. You can argue that it's just a quantitative difference and not a qualitative one, but it's undeniably a huge difference in play style.

[Moirnelithe]

@OP BG2 and other isometric games did have romances. So if romances are your criterium then there are no 'traditionalists', only 'biowarists'. Now shoo, your bias is showing.

[FlintlockJazz]

Well 100% cooldown based magic is now confirmed. So my faction lost. Badly. Enjoy your victory and your modern games. I think I'll go replay BG2 with SCSII.

 

To the Traditionalists and Old Biowarians: If we want a real BG3 I think we are going to have to make it ourselves. Or maybe Inxile will do one.

 

I'm not sure any faction was arguing in favour of cooldowns. In fact, most people were against it...

[MReed]

I'm not sure any faction was arguing in favour of cooldowns. In fact, most people were against it...

 

Um, you must have read a different thread than I did -- I remember a large number of people arguing in favor of cooldown, either with the argument that "We should trust that Obsidian to do cooldowns 'right'" or "The combat system in Infinity Engine games was poor -- the game was successful despite the mechanics, not because of the mechanics".

 

In any case, the point is moot now -- combat (level based) cooldowns are definitely in, and I'd judge that spell / counter-spell battles in the sense of Infinity Engine games is probably out. At this point, my expectations are a game that "feels" very similar to DA:O, but with maybe 50% of the content, which will probably be worth picking up when its out.

[metiman]

@OP BG2 and other isometric games did have romances. So if romances are your criterium then there are no 'traditionalists', only 'biowarists'. Now shoo, your bias is showing.

 

Huh? What are you on about? Romances really weren't in my criterium. My criterium was more or less whether you like modern games like the Dragon Age series, the Mass Effect series, Skyrim, Oblivion, Diablo 3... Stuff like that. Those games that embrace the newer game mechanics and tendencies. Although clearlly New Biowarians don't exactly seem to hate romances. I don't have a bone to pick with romances at the moment. In fact I could care less whether the game has them or not. I'd rather have the game story read like a romance novel than konstant kooldown kombat.

[ogrezilla]

Well 100% cooldown based magic is now confirmed. So my faction lost. Badly. Enjoy your victory and your modern games. I think I'll go replay BG2 with SCSII.

 

To the Traditionalists and Old Biowarians: If we want a real BG3 I think we are going to have to make it ourselves. Or maybe Inxile will do one.

 

I'm not sure any faction was arguing in favour of cooldowns. In fact, most people were against it...

I'm pretty sure in his view, if you don't think cooldowns are an immediate failure for the game then you are the reason for the devolution of gaming.

[metiman]

Well 100% cooldown based magic is now confirmed. So my faction lost. Badly. Enjoy your victory and your modern games. I think I'll go replay BG2 with SCSII.

 

To the Traditionalists and Old Biowarians: If we want a real BG3 I think we are going to have to make it ourselves. Or maybe Inxile will do one.

 

I'm not sure any faction was arguing in favour of cooldowns. In fact, most people were against it...

I'm pretty sure in his view, if you don't think cooldowns are an immediate failure for the game then you are the reason for the devolution of gaming.

 

Pretty much. One of the reasons. Although publisher pandering is even more important.

[ogrezilla]

Well 100% cooldown based magic is now confirmed. So my faction lost. Badly. Enjoy your victory and your modern games. I think I'll go replay BG2 with SCSII.

 

To the Traditionalists and Old Biowarians: If we want a real BG3 I think we are going to have to make it ourselves. Or maybe Inxile will do one.

 

I'm not sure any faction was arguing in favour of cooldowns. In fact, most people were against it...

I'm pretty sure in his view, if you don't think cooldowns are an immediate failure for the game then you are the reason for the devolution of gaming.

 

Pretty much. One of the reasons. Although publisher pandering is even more important.

and that's why I can't take you seriously.

[FlintlockJazz]

Um, you must have read a different thread than I did -- I remember a large number of people arguing in favor of cooldown, either with the argument that "We should trust that Obsidian to do cooldowns 'right'" or "The combat system in Infinity Engine games was poor -- the game was successful despite the mechanics, not because of the mechanics".

 

In any case, the point is moot now -- combat (level based) cooldowns are definitely in, and I'd judge that spell / counter-spell battles in the sense of Infinity Engine games is probably out. At this point, my expectations are a game that "feels" very similar to DA:O, but with maybe 50% of the content, which will probably be worth picking up when its out.

 

We must have been in completely different forums then, since all the threads I've read had people against it and all the polls were too. People were arguing about whether or not to use Vancian or Mana-based magic in the threads I read about spells, not cooldowns, and since Mana-based systems have been used in RPGs for years (GURPS used it in 1980) it's not exactly modern.

 

I'm pretty sure in his view, if you don't think cooldowns are an immediate failure for the game then you are the reason for the devolution of gaming.

 

Maybe, I just don't really recall that many people saying anything other than they hope cooldowns are not in, anyone saying differently were few in number and jumped on immediately lol. Then again, maybe my memory is going in my old age...

[metiman]

and that's why I can't take you seriously.

 

The feeling is mutual. Name a single decent game that used cooldowns.

[NerdBoner]

The feeling is mutual. Name a single decent game that used cooldowns.

man, if this guys ever actually leaves I know for sure I will miss his great capacity for unparalleled butthurt.

 

 

and here's something you might not know...it's not that us more moderate "traditionalists" (or should i say less insane?) like the way the gaming industry is evolving, it's that we have no goddamned choice or say in the matter...our day is done, aside from a few small projects like this, it's OVER. Learn to move on or just quit gaming.