disappointed (torment fan perspective)

[Krios]

A lot of what Obsidian has done so far is to stoke the fires of its fanbase to get people to open their wallets. And there is nothing wrong with that in principle. If they did not get enough money to cover the basics, and if they did not get more than enough, they as a studio may not be able to stay free of publishers. This project if it turns out as successful, as best selling as it is bring painted, as it is being envisioned now, it will turn into a lot of bargaining power for them in future titles. Project Eternity will never be the best forever. Obsidian will be trying to surpass Project Eternity in their future projects. The bar is raised ever higher ...

 

What we are paying for is like we are helping to build a foundation for even better games in the future ... and taking a piece of that foundation home.

[Haerski]

The story isn't being mentioned that much, not because it was fully funded at 1.1 million, but because there isn't one yet. This is still pre-pre-production, folks. All they have at the moment are some idea of the kind of game they'd like to make and a few vague Avellonian story concepts. Mute688 is right. This kickstarter is mostly about trust. Trust that they can make the game that we want, but also that they will make the game that we want. Personally I have little doubt about the first. It's the second that I'm not so sure about. There are two factions that have very different ideas about the game they want. What is Obsidian to do about this gigantic rift in their fan base? I think that's where a lot of the unpredictability is likely to come in.

You sound very sure of yourself. Where did you get this information, because the picture I have gathered in my mind from all the bits and pieces is that they pretty much have the world, some characters and probably even early version of story thought out? Fact is few key people have been setting this project up since last spring and Wasteland 2's massive success in Kickstarter. Now there are already whole lot of people working on this so pre-pre-production is probably not right term anymore.

 

Avellone has been diplomatically promising more information on world, characters and story in interviews for some time, but it has been pretty vague so far.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Haerski

[phimseto]

Chris + Tim + Josh + Obsidian = benefit of the doubt.

[obyknven]

Chris + Tim + Josh + Obsidian <> Black Isle Studios

NWN2 MotB - stupid action game in comparison with Planescape: Torment.

[Rink]

 

That was clear from the beginning.

 

if they say they want a story or characters like in Planescape:Torment, then for me that can be seen as spiritual successor. And they said that, didn't they?

For me there just isn't enough information yet to know for sure if the story and characters really reach that level of quality and I think that information would be nice.

[Director]

I have to agree that the "Super Hardcore Difficulty", "massive dungeon", and the "Adventurer's Hall" don't really appeal to me either - but they obviously appeal to a vocal few, and additionally Josh really likes those kind of things, and so he's gonna enjoy getting them put in and playing around with them.

 

The game was advertised as more of a BG/IWD successor and less of a PS:T one, but let's face it - the game mechanics didn't really make PS:T anyhow.

 

So the GAME MUST HAVE VANCIAN MAGIC OR WORLD ENDS crowd don't really care about the story / interesting characters, and the Story / Romance / cool companion crowd could care less about WHY IS THE GAME NOT TURN BASED ? IF IT'S NOT WORLD WILL END discussions.

 

We've already been promised - a new setting, mature topics and detailed companions. So - we pretty much had all we wanted, (or were likely to get).

 

And what "story" or " stretch goals could they put in? Any "Extra Romance" or "Talking Tree Companion" or whatever would cause a firestorm from the GAME MUST NOT HAVE AN EASY MODE I SHOULD HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME WITH EXCEL OPEN crowd.

 

THB - I think we'll get the weird cool stuff, and a great story. We'll just have to wait for specific companion / faction lore to come out later.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Very few of the stretch goals have me excited. On the other hand, if selling the game from a storyline perspective as the initial post seems to hope for, I'm not sure what kind of stretch goals they could possibly put in.

 

'Reach $3.5 million and we'll write the story even harder'? 'Reach $4 million and we'll throw in another plot twist'? By what measurable barometer could you sell stretch goals based on storyline?

Edited October 5, 2012 by Death Machine Miyagi

[Lady Evenstar]

I've been really pleased that they've kept the stretch goals as general as they have. Development limited by lots of specific promises to backers, is not all that different than development hampered by the specific expectations of a publisher. Why would you want to put them in the position of having to decide, "We're going to have to drop that super-cool quest line because we can't finish both it and have feature X, promised at the Kickstarter, ready for release? I'd much rather the decision was based on what's looking best than an array of promises.

[Stun]

I kinda agree with OP. Leave the stupid accusations of trolling and other such childishness, because this guy really has a valid point here.

He does Not. You're never making a 'valid point' when you jump to such all-encompassing conclusions on such little information.

 

In fact, Planescape: Torment is a perfect example of the folly of doing such a thing. In the months before its release, there was nothing to suggest it was going to be a good game at all.

[Superdeluxe]

How do you guys feel about this?

 

How about we give these guys some space and jet them make the game

[Superdeluxe]

i believe that it's clear now that PE won't be a PS:T spiritual successor :'(

 

That has been Well known, they said at the least that the combat was horrible in PS:T and would mirror BG2

[Piccolo]

i believe that it's clear now that PE won't be a PS:T spiritual successor :'(

It's a spiritual successor to all of the IE games collectively.

 

To quote one of the first pieces of information they put up on the Kickstarter page (which a lot of people here seem to have completely ignored):

 

"Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment."

 

Obsidian have also expanded on this in several interviews.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

Chris + Tim + Josh + Obsidian <> Black Isle Studios

 

 

...yea, who needs Maldonado or Foletto or Nicholas or Osburn or...y'all gotta mellow on kissin' Josh's arse...really...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Dawn_]

Well, i am only going to say one thing about this thread.

 

You love PS:T I love it too. In the last years after its released or in the last few years did you get satisfied with the semi-RPG we got ?

 

Did you got satisfied with DA2 for example who was an action-RPG (i don't hate them. But that's not the RPG i want) ?

Now, you're having guys who really love RPG like we love it too.

 

Anyone who have been playing Kotor 2, NWV or Alpha Protocol can tell it. These guys are really putting their guts to make games that people will love.

I played Alpha protocol, in my country on forums the game was either loved or hated. But i've never seen an infiltration game with such impact/choice and developped storyline.

 

As a PS:T lover you'll probably be frustrated by the result in the end. But, after so much years having finally one damn game closer to the RPG old school, i love so much. It almost makes me cry (and i am sincere saying that..and that comes from real frustration). Who took the pain to try giving you a game you'll like those last years..? Did you play DA2..?!

 

I also read the article about kickstarter nostalgia.

 

It isn't nostalgia, nowadays game are more about artistic prowess than storyline (go save the damn universe..!). We are just asking for rpg with a real story/plot/deep characters..and when you take half of your time in production with graphics..usually the storyline end up being thin as paper.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Dawn_

[SewerCover]

Good story and good gameplay do not have to be exclusive. The main distinction between games and other mediums of art is the ability to interact with the piece. We do this through gameplay, whether it be combat, minigames, or dialogue trees. A good game will use gameplay to reinforce themes in the story and the story is used to support the desire to play the game. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Josh Sawyer said something to this affect in one of the videos/interviews they've done.

 

Another thing is story is a lot harder to get across than gameplay mechanics. A good story requires building up, it's rather hard to show something like that off in a kickstarter update. I mean how would you show off the breadth of Torment's writing in a few paragraphs/pages? Would you rip out a scene from later on, something like Ravel or the Sensory Stone? It might be effective but you lose pivotal aspects, like the character you've built up over the game. How is this person you've been developing react to this? This is a bit in response to the Barbarian jab in the initial post, but the reason to get excited about new races and classes from a strictly story viewpoint is it multiplies the amount of ways your'e allowed to interact with the story, make it that much more personal. Maybe the Barbarian you make is a big dumb lug who wants to help out the only way he knows how, or maybe he wants to use his brawn to get undeserved riches. Maybe your Barbarian is well spoken and intelligent but after a life of trying to talk things out just to see people get stepped on and exploited he snaps, deciding that if they don't want to listen to reason he'll at least make sure they can never hurt people again.

 

I would love it if they would drop more info and ideas that they have from the setting, but there's also a fear in me of learning these interesting things before I have a chance to see them for myself in the game. Maybe it's just me, but I think part of the appeal here is Obsidian being allowed to really do what they want, and creating a world for us that will be large, fully realized, and inventive. I feel I can trust them to make this world one I'd enjoy based on the amazing work they've done on past titles.

[Volourn]

"Alpha Protocol can tell it."

 

if I went by AP; I would believe Obsidian is one of the worstd eveloeprs of all time. AP is a SOZZY game that is beyond crap with no redeemable features. Thankfully, they also made FO:NV which is a friggin' awesome and gets a lot of love from me.

 

FO:NV = 8.5

 

AP = 2

[Wombat]

I'd say, give D&D fans mechanics they want but I'd like to have the content without feeling like playing with teenagers* (In fact, quite many of the supporters are already more than 20 and I believe nostalgia will wear off if they find the story/themes are not fitted to mature audiences - these kinds of games tend to be long, too). And considering the writing team, I think there is a plenty chance that they can make it. Some of the old D&D tradition may get in but, as far as what I am informed so far, it seems to be O.K.

 

As for AP, for me, too, my lack of understanding to spy action genres interfered with my play through (Also, they are not Eidos Montreal). Personally, I've gotten an impression that I'd be more interested in the canned version of Brian. The setting, too, is quite important factor.

 

*I think it's cool for geek parents and/or elder siblings to entertain their children/younger counterparts, though.

[CommissarMega]

"Alpha Protocol can tell it."

 

if I went by AP; I would believe Obsidian is one of the worstd eveloeprs of all time. AP is a SOZZY game that is beyond crap with no redeemable features. Thankfully, they also made FO:NV which is a friggin' awesome and gets a lot of love from me.

 

 

Where AP's PR went wrong was advertising it as a shooter, I think; it was an RPG with RPG mechanics, and the reactivity was top-notch. How many times have you played through it, and how different were the playthroughs? Professional Ninja Thorton is VERY different from Shotgun **** Thorton.

[metiman]

Personally I just thought the combat mechanics of AP were truly awful. That alone killed the game for me. Combine that with that ridiculous action game inspired dialogue system and the game was begging for a quick burial. No amount of MCA quality dialogue could even remotely overcome those problems for me. I'll never know just how good the story was because I can't stand playing the game for more than 5 minutes. Honestly, I found even Dragon Age to have more enjoyable combat. At least while you were still fighting other humans before you left the starting town. To me, AP should be a reminder of how important it is to get actual player feedback. And lots of it.

[Volourn]

"Where AP's PR went wrong was advertising it as a shooter, I think; it was an RPG with RPG mechanics, and the reactivity was top-notch. How many times have you played through it, and how different were the playthroughs? Professional Ninja Thorton is VERY different from Shotgun **** Thorton."

 

I bought AP because of Obsidian and their RPG roots. It was a horrible RPG. I didn't play it multiple times because I try not to play crappy games even once to completion let alone multiple times. I certainly don't need to play a game 7 times to decide if its crap.

 

Thankfully, I'm 99% sure that PE is gonna be a billion times better.

[Merlkir]

Next to nothing is known about the game. How can you be disappointed already?

 

In the information released with each update.

 

http://www.rockpaper...rter-nostalgia/ This is kind of related to my feelings.

Obsidian have completely free hands. I'd love to hear something inspired instead of really long dungeons, crafting systems and classes here and there that we've already seen a thousand times.

Would be so nice to hear about some different places in the game or a certain people or whatever. Perhaps it's just me being bitchy but none of the updates so far has really made me more excited about the game but more of the opposite.

 

Right, I was about to post that link.

 

I think the class update was the most disappointing for me so far. It's good that they're not going to impose gear limitations on classes, but that's about it.

A guy on another forum summed it up quite brutally:

 

 

Yeah, I find it rather underwhelming as well. Uninspired is what I'd call it. I guess it's too early to judge, depends on what the actual class abilities are going to be. Oh, wait...

 

to warp time around enemies, to make skin as tough as stone, to counter even the most powerful magic, to invoke balls of flame, bolts of lightning, gouts of acid, to conjure nightmares out of thin air

So in other words the standard Time Stop, Stoneskin, Antimagic Ward, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Acid Arrow, and Demoralize spells form DnD.

 

WTF, Obsidian. You have, at the time of this post, 2.3 million dollars, i.e. more than double of what you initially asked for, to do anything you want, and this is what you come up with? This is the pinnacle of your creativity? I'm actually regretting my pledge now.

 

Trust based on previous games, yes I can understand that, that was what made me pledge as well. But if you're NOT doing a DnD licensed game, if you're not bound by the shackles of the traditional game development model...Why so uninspired?

 

My immediate response was: "Because they think players want fireballs and acid arrows." But but but, do we?! I'm sure many do, they just want PE to be a direct sequel to Icewind Dale.

 

I don't. Am I backing the wrong project? I think a game can be both - a successor to the IE games AND innovative and interesting.

 

I see so many people asking for paladins in the Kickstarter comments and it HURTS MY SOUL. Why the hell would you ask these talented people to copy what's been done so many times? Isn't it bad enough we got copy/pasted elves, dwarves and humans?!

 

Let them make something original, something new! (And I know there's these godlikes and stuff we don't know about yet. But why bother, why limit their creativity?)

 

Ah, who am I kidding? Kickstarter is not about innovation after all.

 

(This is honestly not an attempt at trolling. Please, don't flame me. I backed the game just as you did, I loved the IE games as you did. I don't want PE to be like Dragon Age 2. Please, discuss, don't just try to dismiss me because you disagree and because you happen to REALLY love acid arrows.)

[melkathi]

"Where AP's PR went wrong was advertising it as a shooter, I think; it was an RPG with RPG mechanics, and the reactivity was top-notch. How many times have you played through it, and how different were the playthroughs? Professional Ninja Thorton is VERY different from Shotgun **** Thorton."

 

I bought AP because of Obsidian and their RPG roots. It was a horrible RPG. I didn't play it multiple times because I try not to play crappy games even once to completion let alone multiple times. I certainly don't need to play a game 7 times to decide if its crap.

 

Thankfully, I'm 99% sure that PE is gonna be a billion times better.

 

I'm on my fourth playthrough of AP. Still love it.

[Volourn]

It sounds like a troll to me. Obsidian was very clear in what they were offering - a BG/IE style game. That's the reason why i forked my $140 for the project - ebcause it has dwarves and theya re promising a BG style game. There are plenty of non DnD games out there. Go play tyhem. hey, there is Wasteland 2 if you want it.

[obyknven]

Chris + Tim + Josh + Obsidian <> Black Isle Studios

 

 

...yea, who needs Maldonado or Foletto or Nicholas or Osburn or...y'all gotta mellow on kissin' Josh's arse...really...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

Just for example

 

Timothy Donley - Planescape Lead Artist

http://www.mobygames...eloperId,13753/

 

Eric Campanella - Planescape Artist

http://www.mobygames...eloperId,13478/

 

Guido Henkel - Planescape Producer

http://www.mobygames...eloperId,13497/

He also made the claim that his overall influence on the game was greater than that of Chris Avellone, Eric Campanella, or Dave Maldonaldo, but since a producer often has to make unpopular decisions his role was later downplayed

http://www.dsa-game....ontent/view/221

 

In the past, this article made nice Obsidianz b *** thurt.

...

Ein weiterer Grund ist, dass man als Producer nicht eben beliebt ist. Letztlich ist das der Job bei dem man den ganzen Tag nichts anderes macht, als dem Team über die Schulter zu schauen, sicherzustellen,

Skurile Orte gab's zuhauf

dass fleißig gearbeitet wird, dass der Terminplan eingehalten wird, dass sich kein Featurecreep einschleicht, dass das Budget nicht überzogen wird und so fort. Außerdem war ich in der Position derjenige, der Teammembers feuern musste, wenn sie nicht „funktioniert“ haben, der den Jungs sagen musste, dass sie keine Gehaltserhöhung bekommen und so fort. Producer ist ein Drecksjob und nach „Planescape“ habe ich mir geschworen, das nie wieder zu tun, aber letztlich ist das der Grund warum ich vom Team oftmals totgeschwiegen werde, weil ich als Produzent von ihnen nie als kreatives Mitglied anerkannt wurde, obwohl in dem Game Code von mir steckt, Ideen die ich beigetragen habe, Teile meines Designs und so fort. Kann ich aber problemlos mit leben, zumal ich weiß, dass mein Einfluss viel weitreichender war als der eines Chris Avellone, Eric Campanella oder Dave Maldonaldo.

...

„Torment“ ist an sich das Spiel auf das ich am stolzesten bin. Es ist nicht die traditionelle Standard Fantasy-Geschichte, die schon tausendmal aufgekocht wurde, und die Thematik an sich ist recht erwachsen. Das sind die Faktoren die mich an dem Projekt immer interessiert und begeistert haben. Auch technisch und vom Look her, denke ich, dass es das Gelungenste der Games ist.

[Merlkir]

It sounds like a troll to me. Obsidian was very clear in what they were offering - a BG/IE style game. That's the reason why i forked my $140 for the project - ebcause it has dwarves and theya re promising a BG style game. There are plenty of non DnD games out there. Go play tyhem. hey, there is Wasteland 2 if you want it.

 

*sigh* You understood precisely nothing. Thanks for proving my point.