Cipher Class

[NerdBoner]

BG's had charm, dire charm, domination, control undead, control monster, control animal and Bhaal knows what else...its been too long.

[Shadenuat]

Wizards got stripped of Enchantment school to create additional class, eh.

[Umberlin]

Wizards got stripped of Enchantment school to create additional class, eh.

 

It's not a D&D setting . . . we don't know what they'll have yet. You can be stripped of something you never had in the first place.

[Cthulchulain]

So you're saying that a Psion is only a semantic change from a Wizard? That both classes use their force of will to manipulate magic/reality in the same manner? That's not a very compelling argument to make a distinction for a new class and mechanic.

 

No, that's not what I said at all. Maybe that previous post should have said "no more arbitrary". But as much as my immediate reaction to the cipher description was "psionics", it was also to some extent "sorceror", in the sense of intuitive ability rather than studied ability. Could be wrong. That covers different mechanic, but you're concerned with the possible effects. Update 15 has this to say:

 

"And what do the tomes contain? Instructions on ways to use one's soul to alter reality, to warp time around enemies, to make skin as tough as stone, to counter even the most powerful magic, to invoke balls of flame, bolts of lightning, gouts of acid, to conjure nightmares out of thin air."

 

The only one of those that comes close to what's implied by the cipher description is the last, but we don't know if those are material "nightmares" or illusory ones.

 

Illusionist & Enchanters already exist, and their title distinguishes them as specialists in mind manipulating magic, while still recognizing them for what they are--a Wizard.

 

Furthermore, there is very reasonable suspicion that the abilities will be redundant, because using magic to produce mind altering effects are already abundant and well established (Sleep, Hold, Charm, Suggestion, etc.)

 

In D&D. Not necessarily in PE. Ditto Illusionist/Enchanter/Necromancer/Transmuter/Abjurer... you get the point.

 

Edit: Don't get me wrong -- I love the versatility of mages in D&D and have never played a sorceror character because I felt straitjacketed (except to experiment with a failed munchkin svirfneblin build for IWD2). But the specialist mages of 2E were meh, in that they didn't have fundamentally different effects relative to a generalist, and after a few levels and a ring of wizardry what's 1 spell per day and -1 save penalties? Psions in D&D ultimately turned into mages with mana ITO what effects were possible. If there was a strict split on what arcane magic and psionics could accomplish that led to a large expansion in mind-affecting abilities rather than taking away charm from wizards and giving it to psions, I think that would be incredibly interesting.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Cthulchulain

[Milten]

Technically within the setting everyone is pulling the energies from their souls, and are simply able by nature, or trained/studied to use them differently. One uses those energies to craft spells. One uses those energies to manipulate minds. If the Wizard crafts spells to manipulate minds as well the question is, are they they same, and if so, are the efforts/components/words involved the same. For example if the Cipher's a purely mental effort, while the Wizard's an effort that requires a material component or a verbal one.

 

Still, one would assume that there is difference beyond simply the effort involved. We haven't seen a full list of abilities, so the result may simply be that there is no cross over - that they do not have access to the same abilities.

The question is how ciphers manipulate people. If their control comes from victim's soul then they very differ from wizzards.

Soul manipulation may go far beyond mind tricks. Cut someone from his soul energy, make someone temporary possessed by random ghost and so on.

[rjshae]

If they do telepathy, they may need to add branches to virtually every conversation. I'm not sure that will happen, both because of the extra costs and the possibility of breaking plot threads that rely on NPC secrets. They may also need to add branches for any type of KOTOR-style subtle mind manipulations (these are not the droids you are looking for...).

[DocDoomII]

Not telepathy but maybe something like the axii sign in conversations in the witcher 2?

[Umberlin]

I believe the Witcher 2's system, if I remember, really didn't feel different than the mind manipulation in KotOR II. Not exactly the same, but it came to the same thing in the end. It worked decently in both cases.

 

I still liked the VtM Bloodlines style best, simply because you had multiple manners of persuasion in general, outside of the basic mind control from particular disciplines. And even within the disciplines you had different types. Domination versus Dementation. Sure, you could make a guy drop a gun, who was threatening you . . . or you could use dementation, and convince him that he was a bear and that the civilians around the area were fish . . . and let the cops take care of him after he started killing people as he ran around screaming that he is a bear and that he plans to eat the fishies.

 

 

(That didn't really happen, just an example in case someone now wants to play it and doesn't want the good ones spoiled).

 

Or you could just stand in the middle of the street arguing with a stop sign.

 

(That one did happen).

 

Technically within the setting everyone is pulling the energies from their souls, and are simply able by nature, or trained/studied to use them differently. One uses those energies to craft spells. One uses those energies to manipulate minds. If the Wizard crafts spells to manipulate minds as well the question is, are they they same, and if so, are the efforts/components/words involved the same. For example if the Cipher's a purely mental effort, while the Wizard's an effort that requires a material component or a verbal one.

 

Still, one would assume that there is difference beyond simply the effort involved. We haven't seen a full list of abilities, so the result may simply be that there is no cross over - that they do not have access to the same abilities.

The question is how ciphers manipulate people. If their control comes from victim's soul then they very differ from wizzards.

Soul manipulation may go far beyond mind tricks. Cut someone from his soul energy, make someone temporary possessed by random ghost and so on.

 

Mhm, true, we really do need more information for a full fledged idea. Sadly . . . in depth descriptions and mechanics are likely a ways off.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Umberlin

[Cthulchulain]

Telepathy is sadly too open-ended for a really satisfying treatment. I once played a mind-flayer in a Planescape campaign, in which I had to telepathically instruct our tiefling (masquerading as a prisoner-holder) how to carry out her side of the conversation phonetically in infernal, and wound up having her unknowingly flirt with the fiend we were interacting with.

 

Ahh, P&P.

[Umberlin]

That's interesting in its own way though.

[DCParry]

I think some simple, mostly flavour things would be fun, like being able to tell when an NPC is lying to you. Of course, only useful in relevant conversations, but still.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Wizards got stripped of Enchantment school to create additional class, eh.

 

That's a concise expression of my antipathy towards the description given to the Cipher. A separate class which manipulates the souls of others implies that Wizards cannot, or shall not.

[Umberlin]

'Cannot' being significantly different than 'stripped of' . . .

[sparklecat]

In a broader sense, is mind control always inherently a violation, even if it can be used for good?

 

Yeah. I adore abilities where it's very plausible that my character can start off as someone who's only interested in helping and protecting others, and then because of using something inherently corrupting to do that helping and protecting (possibly with the addition of some unexpected external event making sticking by their principles especially difficult), ending up very fond of the power and unable to give it up. Let me start off wiping a couple memories for someone's own good, then taking a bit more next time, reasoning that using my powers in a way that benefits me isn't so bad if I'm helping the innocent I'm affecting at the same time, or maybe at least if I'm not hurting them...

 

And let my companions react to this; not just "you did a bad thing and I am a good person and I disapprove, you evil person", but "you usually do good things and you just did a questionable thing and now you're continuing those questionable things some more, what is going on here!"

[morhilane]

Divine Divinity 2 had telepathy dialog "choices" (it had its own button in the dialog UI), but it didn't always work and consumed your XP for each usage (increasing amount depending of levels).

• Sometimes the person was too strong-willed and knew what you did.
  
• Sometimes there was nothing to gain to use it.
  
• Sometimes you got secret information about hidden lot or other way of solving a quest.
  

 

Also Divinity 2 didn't have multiple dialog choices for persuasion and other thing like that.