The Monk Class

[LadyCrimson]

If you don't like monks and if they are included in the game, then you will always have the possibility just not to take them with you, right? I am sure there are also people there that do not like priests (religious fanatics are sometimes hard to handle) or pure fighters (boring class) or rogues (why covardly sneak if you can run into the fight!).

I think Paladin's (and Fighters, to a lesser degree) in most games are pretty dull classes to play. But a lot of people like them and I have no qualms about them being in the game. It doesn't break my immersion to see one in the game or even to end up with one in my party for a while. Just not my favorite type of character.

 

I'm not clear why some seem to think that martial arts/hand to hand combat, in terms of this game, has to = Asian? I don't even find the older man in the concept art to be all that Asian looking, in terms of, say, China or Japan, compared to the fighter or the mage (rogue?). He's just a guy with stereotypical balding crown and long hair, with a very angry, squished up face. And I don't think it's that much of a stretch to consider that this world-area may have developed a form of martial arts on it's own, independent of "Asia" or outside influence. It's not like hand-to-hand fighting is some alien, potentially exclusive concept for bipedal creatures, anymore than invention of gunpowder likely would be - this is not meant to be an actual telling of Earth history, even if they're using some concepts from it. That's the fun of fantasy, imo ... taking stuff from our world and twisting and turning it around and upside down into what if's and maybes.

[Karranthain]

I'm not clear why some seem to think that martial arts/hand to hand combat, in terms of this game, has to = Asian? I don't even find the older man in the concept art to be all that Asian looking, in terms of, say, China or Japan, compared to the fighter or the mage (rogue?). He's just a guy with stereotypical balding crown and long hair, with a very angry, squished up face.

 

The arm and footwraps that the monk is wearing have a visible Asian influence, to be fair.

 

But yeah, no one is forcing us to take them as companions if we don't particularly enjoy the class, so not that big of a problem.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Karranthain

[NOK222]

OP, where in the mod's post do yous see that he's for Kung Fu monks? He made a point to counter yours, that doesn't mean he's a fan of Bruce Lee. Dear Christ!

Edited October 4, 2012 by NKKKK

[Shadenuat]

Isn't that the point, however? There is plenty of other classes to dress up with all sorts of +2 trinkets. It's nice to have a character type that doesn't rely on gear so much. The abilities could be a bit more flexible than average D&D monk level up path, though.

 

There's a lot of points out there, but some just don't belong in tactical games.

True story: I was replaying NWN2 few days ago, mostly because I wanted to tweak one build specifically for MotB and SoZ, and had Khelgar in my party turn into a monk - I had enough influence on him, so dwarf said he want to. I did't care for that guy cause I was playing an evil character, but he had his share of items. So just to fresh my experience, I decided I'll turn him into monk. I basically auto-leveled him pretty mindlessly, slapped an Amulet of Wisdom and Sun robe on him, and sent into a fight. And you probably know that already - he performed as well as characters I actually cared to level-up manually and equip decently. Because his fists can substitute for magical weapon. Because while I had to care for other party members not to get diseased by zombie or poisoned, and he is immune. Because he has inbuild healing potion. Because he has natural damage reduction. The point of monks was to pander for martial artists fans, that's it. Probably the reason why most of D&D players I know concider them (monks, not martial artists) lame.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Shadenuat

[Kilroy_Was_Here]

Remember the one random white guy in Jade Empire? He had a British accent, a (British) imperial outlook, and a blunderbuss! In an eastern martial arts game all about well... monks! None of the people who met him were really sure how to deal with him. And yet it made sense in the context because the 'world map' made no pretention of really being a map of the world but only the world that people in the game are familiar with.

 

In Jade Empire you could debate that guy (can't remember his name) and could make him join your party (become your companion) or give you his firearm (learn his fighting style). Who's to say that PE can't do something similar in reverse with the monk. Maybe the NPC monk that joins you is the only one people have ever seen and it's a big deal wherever they go. "Wow, did you see that guy/girl? Their fist lit on fire and then they punched that armored thug and there was an explosion or something!"

 

Depending on how it's written there can be a lot of life in the concept of the monk even if its based on the same stereotypes we've seen elsewhere.

[NOK222]

I don't remember the option that he's join-able, but I always took his blunderbuss.

[Shadenuat]

Here's someone more interesting to hang around with, I believe they came from class Complete books made for "wild" and uncivilized classes: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Brawler_%283.5e_Class%29

They are played very close to monks mechanically, I think.

 

[Halberd]

Having a monk class seems like something that would only be in the game for the sake of it. Or to appease the old school dungeons and dragons people...

 

I mean I think its cool and all but its gotta make sense especially when you consider we might have to fight big creatures in the game like armoured ogres/trolls/giants or dragons or other big enemies that I haven't accounted for.

 

Maybe the monk would be more of a sidelines character or something. Very good at fighting weaker enemies and doing hand to hand combat and supporting their party (maybe they practice magic?)

 

maybe even given them secondary weapons to use to defend themselves in battle against big creatures.

 

Throwable weapons for example. A lot of martial arts masters in Asia dedicate their training to throwable weapons and they become masters at using them and know how to easily kill people with tiny objects and find their weak spots and etc.

 

maybe nunchuks?

 

a katana?

 

These weapons are pretty weird for a fantasy game though I guess but maybe they can back it up through lore.

 

Or just give them western weapons so it makes sense or w/e

 

but yeah for the most part I still think it shouldn't just be put in for the sake of it no matter how bad some people want it

Edited October 4, 2012 by Halberd

[Umberlin]

So, this is the concept Obsidian presented of a Monk:

 

 

You don't really need to guess much when the concept sort of speaks for itself. Bare chested. Hands blazing with fiery energies. Cloth wraps on the forearms and shins. We can't see what's on his feet. A belt to hold up cloth pants. Looks like there may be a pouch on the belt. His skin looks lightly tattooed. His hair is either white or gray, a result of age.

 

It seems to be the, "converts inner energies into outer energies" as seen by his fists being alight with energies obviously meant to turn his hands into lethal weapons capable of dealing with armed and armored opponents. This likely will manifest in more than just his hands as weapons, covering a range of offensive and defense types, such as defensive auras or hypernatural senses that allow him to deflect projectiles. Some settings have even included abilities to regenerate or heal on this type of Monk, even the ability to deflect/absorb magical energies with a particular short term ability, usually quite limited in use to balance it.

 

-

 

We could discuss that there were no many tentacled horrors in medieval europe . . . or we could just accept that there are many tentacled horrors in the fantasy setting of this game which is not a word for word, historically accurate replica of medieval europe.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Umberlin

[Aedelric]

No one wants a historically accurate replica of medieval Europe, you are being hyperbolic Umberlin.

[IchigoRXC]

I seem to be agreeing with you Umberlin, post after post. Keep up the good work

[Umberlin]

No one wants a historically accurate replica of medieval Europe, you are being hyperbolic Umberlin.

 

You may want to axe the "no one" portion of that claim, since I can actually quote you posts from around the forum saying things like, "things weren't like that back then" or "this didn't exist in medieval times" and so on and so forth as reasons for their opinions or backing for why they think something should/shouldn't be in. And using that the game's setting/naming conventions are "inspired by European culture", as a reason why 'X shouldn't be in" is no less common. It's something that you did in this very thread, I could quote it - I don't see it as any different or any less ridiculous than the, "things weren't like that back then" people that seem to forget this is a fantasy game, not a historical account of medieva times.

 

I don't even mind the people not wanting a Monk in the game. If you've read my post on the last page, the Monk just something I accept, not something I want - there are a hundred, if not more, other things I'd prefer.

 

However all the variations the, "this shouldn't be in because *time period*" lines I see every now and then are all absolute nonsense by my measure. I'm not saying don't pull from an inspired time period, mind you. There are tons of great things to see. We wouldn't have great things like Star Wars without the culture and idea mish mash performed to create it.

 

I am saying, however, that: "The setting, and what's right for, it . . . that's not a matter of time period. It's a matter of what Obsidian are creating. If that includes space men from the planet X then so be it."

 

I don't want space men from the planet X either by the way. That's just an outlandish example. And when I mentioned: "historically accurate replica of medieval Europe" I was also being outlandish, because I've seen posts like that around the forum, and that's what I thought of them . . . that they were outlandish. They had to be joking. Some of them weren't.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Umberlin

[anek]

How about we drop martial arts entirely. Guns, magic, swords, archery and some semi-naked lunatic runs around trying to punch people in the face? I am all for suspension of disbelief, but that is being slightly ridiculous.

 

Who's to say their punches can't be more than just normal real-world punches?

 

I'm sure they'll be tapping the power of souls to 'enhance' them...

 

Look at the middle character in the painting from the kickstarter page - that seems to be a monk, no?

 

 

 

Also, a good part of my InfinityEngine nostalgia is related to memories of my Monk char landing a well placed hit with his fist or foot against an already wounded powerful foe, causing the screen to shake and the foe to shatter into chunks of flesh.

 

I don't care about realism - don't take that away from me!

Edited October 4, 2012 by anek

[IchigoRXC]

What you people don't seem to be realising is he is shouting something while he is attacking. That something is "FALCON PUNCH!"

[Labadal]

I'd like to see monks that use exotic weapons. special staffs made for melee fighting, claws, and other weapons not really being used by other classes.

[Galdegir]

Personally I'm not very fond of monks would prefer to see some other classes: a necromancer, a witch/warlock, a paladin.

[anek]

I'd like to see monks that use exotic weapons. special staffs made for melee fighting, claws, and other weapons not really being used by other classes.

 

This is the only 'weapon' a Monk needs ...

 

Edited October 4, 2012 by anek

[junk11]

How about we drop martial arts entirely. Guns, magic, swords, archery and some semi-naked lunatic runs around trying to punch people in the face? I am all for suspension of disbelief, but that is being slightly ridiculous.

 

Who's to say their punches can't be more than just normal real-world punches?

 

I'm sure they'll be tapping the power of souls to 'enhance' them...

 

Look at the middle character in the painting from the kickstarter page - that seems to be a monk, no?

 

 

 

Also, a good part of my InfinityEngine nostalgia is related to memories of my Monk char landing a well placed hit with his fist or foot against an already wounded powerful foe, causing the screen to shake and the foe to shatter into chunks of flesh.

 

I don't care about realism - don't take that away from me!

 

Wait...What..?

Isn't monk the one who has a flaming hand raising up?

o..so that isn't a monk but a wizard...

can't we have a monk wearing cool leather with robe?

 

--------------

I actually think monk is a good addon to the story

with the focus on the "soul", you dont really need to separate chi and magic as different system like in DnD

those are the power of souls in PE

But then do we really need to link Monk into religions?

we already got that covered with priest

 

A monk can be the class trying to pursuit the harmony of soul and physicial (I know.......)

not tapping too hard like wizard (so enhancement only),

not using 100% power on killing only (hence different training from warrior, towards disarm, non-ethal weapons or spider-sense...?)

no direct link to god like priest (no instant healing...and such...more like fasten metabolism)

....

jack-of-all-trade, master of none?

[el pinko grande]

I'm not a fan of the concept art monk.

 

I want there to be monks. But I want the inspiration for them to be Japanese sohei, or else the monastic characters from Jin Yong novels. I think either could be integrated into Western-style high fantasy with very little trouble. I don't want them to primarily be an unarmed class. I want their conceit to be that theyr'e unarmored or lightly-armored skirmish-type warriors who use their souls to enhance their basic properties of their bodies, allowing them to move and react faster than regular warriors. Basically, I want them to have the sort of abilities that d20 monks have, but without the silly cultural trappings that WotC burdened them with. Oh, and I'd also like it if at high levels they could use attacks that damage other people's souls. I sort of see them as a powerful anti-caster class.

 

That's just my two cents.

Edited October 4, 2012 by el pinko grande

[Luckmann]

I hate kung-fu monks.

 

Why can't we get a Templar Pugilist or something, instead?

[anek]

I sort of see them as a powerful anti-caster class.

 

That's what they were in the D&D v3 rules... very good mage killers, distinguished from "normal" fighter by four main features:

• Powerful unarmed attack
  
• Excellent unarmed AC
  
• Improved evasion feat that allowed them to usually avoid area effect damage from spells such as fireball
  
• Excellent magic resistance (at least at higher levels)
  

And I think a "mage killer" class should really exist in any RPG that has powerful magic users, so for those wondering why there should be a Monk class rather than adding Paladin/Bard/Witch/Lawyer/Janitor/whatever classes first, I'd say that's why.

Edited October 4, 2012 by anek

[Umberlin]

I sort of see them as a powerful anti-caster class.

 

That's what they were in the D&D v3 rules... very good mage killers, distinguished from "normal" fighter by four main features:

• Powerful unarmed attack
  
• Excellent unarmed AC
  
• Improved evasion feat that allowed them to usually avoid area effect damage from spells such as fireball
  
• Excellent magic resistance (at least at higher levels)
  

And I think a "mage killer" class should really exist in any RPG that has powerful magic users, so for those wondering why there should be a Monk class rather than adding Paladin/Bard/Witch/Lawyer/Janitor/whatever classes first, I'd say that's why.

 

They already did the anti-mage idea with the guns piercing magical defenses.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Umberlin

[Aedelric]

Any class can be anti-mage, you do not need a monk for that.

[anek]

They already did the anti-mage idea with the guns piercing magical defenses.

 

Hm, true, to some extent.

 

Any class can be anti-mage, you do not need a monk for that.

 

But having the ability to throw yourself in the air, pull yourself around mid-air and immediately roll to the side when landing on the ground - so as to evade the effects of a simultaneous Fireball and Lightning Bolt invocation - seems slightly more credible with an unarmed martial arts fighter, than a Paladin wearing full-plate armor and wielding a two-handed sword...

 

And the themes of meditation, spiritual reflection and self-perfection associated with Monks can also explain things like innate magic resistance pretty well.

Edited October 4, 2012 by anek

[Tauron]

To stop derailing the other topic, we can discuss the pro and con's of the Monk class here.

 

Personally I am completely against a stereotyped Asian kung-fu fighter with spiritual overtones. The archetype has been done over and over again, in many varying settings and in most cases when set within a high fantasy medieval world it often feels and looks out of place.

 

How can this be addressed? In European culture monks traditional are peaceful, tend herb gardens and wear habits dedicating their lives to god. But the crusades changed that and we had the likes of Hospitilars, warrior monks who took vows to fight zealously for god and heal the wounded. A much more likeable monk archetype in my opinion.

 

 

Are you for kung-fu monks or against?

 

Edit - Good suggestion was flagellants.

 

Good point. If they do Monk class, than I hope they expand on that. Not just shaolin monk type of character. Monk is nothing more but a fighter, I'd rather see it down that path a subcategory of a fighter.