[Merged] Cooldown Thread

[Infinitron]

Josh, I think that the more common case isn't the player doing poorly in combat due to a bad selection of spells, but rather running out of spells, period.

 

You might play wastefully and run out of spells even if you chose them wisely and kicked ass at combat while you still had them.

That is likely more common, but isn't being "wasteful" something that's only appreciated in retrospect? I.e. conservation strategy is only strategic if you have some sort of understanding of what you're going up against. In most cases, you don't know how many enemies you're going to fight, how deep the dungeon is, or what spells any given caster has at his or her disposal. Is it "wasteful" to cast fireball on 6 lizard men? Is it wasteful to cast it on 4 lizard men? What if one of them is a caster and he's casting hold person? What if there are only 30 lizard men on the level?

 

That is something that is typically learned through experience. Ideally, in some kind of introductory tutorial dungeon at the beginning of the game.

 

Of course, for that experience to be useful, the dungeons need to be populated in a consistent fashion across the game, in terms of the amount of spells needed to conquer them.

[Streamlock]

I don't know what I can add to the discussion, other then to chime in that every game that has went with a straight cooldown system has been worse for it in the long haul. That is not to say that a creative director/disigner could not find someway to make in interesting, challanging, and rewarding in what is supposed to be a tactical experience. Perhaps there is one out there, and I just have not experienced it.

 

I have no problem with cooldown/recharge abilities being in the mix. Or having low level ones become cooldown, or some of the other ideas that have been brought up. I just really don't want another game were I'm either playing wack-a-mole with my/my parties abilites as they come up, or balancing my checkbook while I wait for long cooldowns just for something to do. It is always one extreme or the other, or seemingly so.

[Lohi]

-First, and foremost, they break the Mage character. The intent of the Mage character is that while he is weak, and his damage is less frequent than a Warrior, his damage is tide-turning.

I disagree. This may be the intent in some games. However there is no universal dictionary that defines a mage this way! And since this isn't a D&D game there's no reason to assumed D&D's definition.

 

Even in D&D that's not at all true. At lower levels the mage is a dead weight. Fighters do more damage, soak up more damage, and carry more loot than the mage will. Level 1, one spell. Level 2, two spells. Turn on AI in Baldur's Gate and all the spells are used up in the first fight against xvarts. Even clerics at least can be useful when their spells are used up. D&D magic users don't get really tide turning until higher levels, and that's the only reason people put up with it.

 

 

If the mage is too powerful this way then lower the power, simple. There is no rule that mages must be massive nukers.

 

-Second, the fundamental reason for the switch to cooldowns, "Rest-spamming or reloading", is flawed. It's removing a perfectly functioning system because some subset of players are not willing to use their spells judiciously.

The D&D system in my view is absolutely not perfectly functioning, it's an extremely flawed system. The D&D mechanics are irrepairable, and I don't think anyone would ever use it in a computer game if it were not for the marketing bonus that comes from being an Official D&D game. Why is it only the mage must use their spells judiciously, and why is that necessary in the first place? Everyone else can swing their sword as much as they want all day long but the mage has decide when it's alright to use one out of the 5 spells per day?

 

Yes, the older IE games were fun. But they were fun despite the game system they were built on top of. Replicate what was good in those games but leave the broken D&D ideas behind.

 

Memorized spells are a bad design decision.

[metiman]

Well I'm definitely in favor of time being a resource.

[Infinitron]

I'm surprised that this forum is full of strategic masterminds that never lost a fight in IE games and nobody have mentioned that optimal strategy for IE games is to rest after every encounter.

 

Abusing the rest feature isn't strategic mastery, it's just ruining the fun for yourself. The most enjoyable way to play those games was to try to survive as long as possible before resting.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Infinitron

[Jon of the Wired]

Wow, I had no idea people actually liked Vancian magic; I thought everyone merely tolerated it. I'm ambivalent towards cool-downs, but the five minute work day is absolutely terrible game design.

[Infinitron]

And you call yourself a grognard.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Infinitron

[ImNotCreative]

I'm surprised that this forum is full of strategic masterminds that never lost a fight in IE games and nobody have mentioned that optimal strategy for IE games is to rest after every encounter.

 

Abusing the rest feature isn't strategic mastery. it's just ruining the fun for yourself. The most enjoyable way to play those games was to try to survive as long as possible before resting.

 

What is fun and what isn't is highly subjective and not part of the rules so you can't take it in to consideration when determining optimal strategy. The fact that optimal solution isn't the most enjoyable (or even enjoyable at all) is the point of my post.

[metiman]

Wow, I had no idea people actually liked Vancian magic; I thought everyone merely tolerated it. I'm ambivalent towards cool-downs, but the five minute work day is absolutely terrible game design.

 

How old are you?

[Osvir]

I'm surprised that this forum is full of strategic masterminds that never lost a fight in IE games and nobody have mentioned that optimal strategy for IE games is to rest after every encounter. Time isn't resource in IE games thus there are no drawbacks of running back to camp but it makes your party considerably stronger. If you didn't run back because you found it tedious or because you role played it doesn't matter because those are self imposed constraints and not part of the game's rules ie you were playing suboptimally. The only way to nerf the "resting strategy" without changing magic system is to make time a valuable resource (quests have time limits for example) or to respawn enemies on rest. I don't really think that neither of those solutions are good so I don't see how could you nerf "resting strategy" without changing magic system. Let's face it, no matter how we liked IE games they had some broken mechanics and were best played with self imposed challenges which is a bad design IMO.

 

But maybe time could be a resource. Otherwise I agree, excellent pointers. However, I also think that a game which even gives you the option to create self imposing challenges are great design.

[andreisiadi]

Wow, I had no idea people actually liked Vancian magic; I thought everyone merely tolerated it. I'm ambivalent towards cool-downs, but the five minute work day is absolutely terrible game design.

 

We don't like vancian, we dislike the rest because they're even worse mechanic-wise. The trade-offs are just not worth it.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

I'm surprised that this forum is full of strategic masterminds that never lost a fight in IE games and nobody have mentioned that optimal strategy for IE games is to rest after every encounter. Time isn't resource in IE games thus there are no drawbacks of running back to camp but it makes your party considerably stronger. If you didn't run back because you found it tedious or because you role played it doesn't matter because those are self imposed constraints and not part of the game's rules ie you were playing suboptimally. The only way to nerf the "resting strategy" without changing magic system is to make time a valuable resource (quests have time limits for example) or to respawn enemies on rest. I don't really think that neither of those solutions are good so I don't see how could you nerf "resting strategy" without changing magic system. Let's face it, no matter how we liked IE games they had some broken mechanics and were best played with self imposed challenges which is a bad design IMO.

 

 

...'cept that restin' after e'ery fight didna always work; got interrupted a fair bit...am not sayin' mechanics was perfect, but interruptin' rest works fine ta stop those that abuses it...an' really, only thing peoples is doin' abusin' the rest function be takin' the fun away from theysselves, an' if'n peoples is gonna powergame, theys gonna find a way ta do it...sad, but true...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[J.E. Sawyer]

Do you just disagree with the whole concept of managing resources across fights then? I'm curious as to what your stance is on healing potions.

No. I haven't though a tremendous amount about healing points, but that brings up an interesting parallel resource management behavior in RPGs. I've seen (and talked to) innumerable gamers who say they end games with inventories full of consumables: potions, wands, scrolls, etc. The most commonly cited reason they give is that they don't know when is/isn't a good time to use them. Also, because they often have no idea when they might get more, they don't want to run out. It's sort of the inverse problem of rest spamming.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Fast travel is one of the evils of recent cRPG.

 

Fast travel was in Baldurs Gate. I could go from the Nashkel Mines to the Friendly Arm Inn in one click.

[Shadenuat]

I.e. conservation strategy is only strategic if you have some sort of understanding of what you're going up against.

 

I think that's why whole idea of scouting ahead exists, and why in some old MUDs you always put thief in front, and scout things. That tactic does't work in games today, because stealth usually sucks, or you just hit a script trigger with your thief and instantly teleported under final boss gaze (NWN and NWN2, that's on you), or you get "YOU MUST GATHER YOUR PARTY" message.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Shadenuat

[metiman]

I'm surprised that this forum is full of strategic masterminds that never lost a fight in IE games and nobody have mentioned that optimal strategy for IE games is to rest after every encounter.

 

Abusing the rest feature isn't strategic mastery. it's just ruining the fun for yourself. The most enjoyable way to play those games was to try to survive as long as possible before resting.

 

What is fun and what isn't is highly subjective and not part of the rules so you can't take it in to consideration when determining optimal strategy. The fact that optimal solution isn't the most enjoyable (or even enjoyable at all) is the point of my post.

 

Do you have a better solution? Mana pools have the same problem. They don't last forever and then you need a way to regen them. Usually involvign sleep or waiting around for half a day. Cooldowns are not a solution for obvious reasons. So what system is better? One with no limits on casting spellsl at all? That might work if everyone in the game is a spell caster.

[Hypevosa]

Do you just disagree with the whole concept of managing resources across fights then? I'm curious as to what your stance is on healing potions.

No. I haven't though a tremendous amount about healing points, but that brings up an interesting parallel resource management behavior in RPGs. I've seen (and talked to) innumerable gamers who say they end games with inventories full of consumables: potions, wands, scrolls, etc. The most commonly cited reason they give is that they don't know when is/isn't a good time to use them. Also, because they often have no idea when they might get more, they don't want to run out. It's sort of the inverse problem of rest spamming.

 

I know that problem, always ends up with TONS of healing potions. My favorite phrase for the problem is "giant spider syndrome" where you are constantly saving your best gear because, that is a really big spider you're fighting right now, but you may just need your big guns for that even gianter spider that is somewhere around the corner.

[Jon of the Wired]

I had no idea people actually

Wow, I had no idea people actually liked Vancian magic; I thought everyone merely tolerated it. I'm ambivalent towards cool-downs, but the five minute work day is absolutely terrible game design.

 

How old are you?

 

Old enough to have been playing D&D for twenty years or so. Which, it turns out, is plenty of time to develop a deep-seated hatred of Vancian magic.

[DocDoomII]

Fast travel is one of the evils of recent cRPG.

 

Fast travel was in Baldurs Gate. I could go from the Nashkel Mines to the Friendly Arm Inn in one click.

Already answered this few pages ago.

[ImNotCreative]

I'm surprised that this forum is full of strategic masterminds that never lost a fight in IE games and nobody have mentioned that optimal strategy for IE games is to rest after every encounter. Time isn't resource in IE games thus there are no drawbacks of running back to camp but it makes your party considerably stronger. If you didn't run back because you found it tedious or because you role played it doesn't matter because those are self imposed constraints and not part of the game's rules ie you were playing suboptimally. The only way to nerf the "resting strategy" without changing magic system is to make time a valuable resource (quests have time limits for example) or to respawn enemies on rest. I don't really think that neither of those solutions are good so I don't see how could you nerf "resting strategy" without changing magic system. Let's face it, no matter how we liked IE games they had some broken mechanics and were best played with self imposed challenges which is a bad design IMO.

 

But maybe time could be a resource. Otherwise I agree, excellent pointers. However, I also think that a game which even gives you the option to create self imposing challenges are great design.

 

Yes I worded it poorly, what I wanted to say is that it is bad that you basically had to ignore a mechanic to fully enjoy the game. Self imposed challenges are great, but if most people have to make them in order to enjoy than why aren't they part of the design in the first place.

[Ieo]

Do you just disagree with the whole concept of managing resources across fights then? I'm curious as to what your stance is on healing potions.

No. I haven't though a tremendous amount about healing points, but that brings up an interesting parallel resource management behavior in RPGs. I've seen (and talked to) innumerable gamers who say they end games with inventories full of consumables: potions, wands, scrolls, etc. The most commonly cited reason they give is that they don't know when is/isn't a good time to use them. Also, because they often have no idea when they might get more, they don't want to run out. It's sort of the inverse problem of rest spamming.

 

This is the exact problem I have with potions, so I simply rarely ever use them--only the healing ones in the IE games, only healing/mana in the other games I play (because those are always the most common).

 

I'd still love a combination system with cooldown + spell slots + rest + soul + mana, though. (You haven't mentioned any ideas on soul, but perhaps there's not much to say about it just yet WRT magic. )

[metiman]

I had no idea people actually

Wow, I had no idea people actually liked Vancian magic; I thought everyone merely tolerated it. I'm ambivalent towards cool-downs, but the five minute work day is absolutely terrible game design.

 

How old are you?

 

Old enough to have been playing D&D for twenty years or so. Which, it turns out, is plenty of time to develop a deep-seated hatred of Vancian magic.

 

Okay. Just curious. In the early 80s I dont recall too many alternatives for PnP fantasy RPGs. So if you hated them then you pretty much hated PnP RPGs.

[ogrezilla]

Do you just disagree with the whole concept of managing resources across fights then? I'm curious as to what your stance is on healing potions.

No. I haven't though a tremendous amount about healing points, but that brings up an interesting parallel resource management behavior in RPGs. I've seen (and talked to) innumerable gamers who say they end games with inventories full of consumables: potions, wands, scrolls, etc. The most commonly cited reason they give is that they don't know when is/isn't a good time to use them. Also, because they often have no idea when they might get more, they don't want to run out. It's sort of the inverse problem of rest spamming.

 

I know that problem, always ends up with TONS of healing potions. My favorite phrase for the problem is "giant spider syndrome" where you are constantly saving your best gear because, that is a really big spider you're fighting right now, but you may just need your big guns for that even gianter spider that is somewhere around the corner.

in my current IWD game, I have just bought my third potion bag because I haven't used one yet.

[Infinitron]

Do you just disagree with the whole concept of managing resources across fights then? I'm curious as to what your stance is on healing potions.

No. I haven't though a tremendous amount about healing points, but that brings up an interesting parallel resource management behavior in RPGs. I've seen (and talked to) innumerable gamers who say they end games with inventories full of consumables: potions, wands, scrolls, etc. The most commonly cited reason they give is that they don't know when is/isn't a good time to use them. Also, because they often have no idea when they might get more, they don't want to run out. It's sort of the inverse problem of rest spamming.

 

I'm not sure if that's really a problem of players "not knowing when to use potions", or if it's simply a manifestation of OCD hoarding behavior.

 

I've thought about this problem before myself and I think that, again, there needs to be some kind of introductory tutorial section that teaches players about potions, and crucially, conditions them into using potions regularly and not hoarding them.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Infinitron

[metiman]

I never seem to use potions except in the most emergency of emergency situations and even then I sort of regard it as cheating.