Update #13: 50K Backers Brings New Mega Dungeon, Stretch Goals, and More! (PayPal too!)

[Archmage Silver]

The dungeon design sound great! I don't know why, but I got a feeling of an Spellhold-isque version of Durlag's Tower. And the growing dungeon concept is a good thing too, IMO. I personally ain't really interested in the crafting and enchanting stuff, but hey, might be there's something in them as well that turns out to be fun. Great update anyways.

Durlag's Tower or Watcher's Keep? Both are nice, although Watcher's Keep is definitely more high fantasy than Durlag's Tower.

[Monte Carlo]

The Old-Skool Mega-Dungeon Rules

 

1. Theme

 

The dungeon needs a reason for being. Because, on the face of it, a bloody great underground maze full of monsters and stuff is a bit mad. So you need a reason: is it a crypt, a mad wizard's lair, a buried city, a cave network, a temple complex, the body of a long-ossified god, the testing grounds of a brutal subterranean cult...? Or maybe a combination of all these things. Obsidian score highly already because they have a Crypt and a Mad Wizard. It's so old-skool I giggled. In a good way.

 

2. A Reason to Visit

 

This doesn't need to be too complex, but a quest is a helpful reason to justify the dungeon crawl. Be it a rescue, exploration, assassination of an evil protagonist, theft of large rubies from a demonic statue, the garnering of the ichor of a Rust monster's gall bladder for spell components... you get the reason. Of course, a true mega-dungeon has lots of micro-plots going on. Do you side with the trolls on level 2 to get rid of the Umber Hulk on level 3? They're offering a trollblood mace. Do you rescue the obligatory dwarf prisoner on level 6 to find out that he's an assassin tasked with slaying an insane priest of the snake goddess on level 8?

 

3. Dungeon Ecology

 

The dungeon ecology should make sense. Monsters / tribes / species / organisations etc should make sense. And the ecology should be dynamic. Kill the orcs on level 2 and it might be that the bugbears from level 3 move in. Kill the troll-hunting Umber Hulks and maybe the trolls start taking over without any predators. The adventurers therefore get the chance to influence the dungeon ecology by conquest, extermination or guile. Lot's of opportunities to use skills like sneaking and diplomacy. Why can't a skill monkey character set all the dungeon factions against each other without actually drawing his sword?

 

4. Traps / Puzzles and of course a Talking Statue

 

Traps, puzzles and talking statues are as old-skool as Gary Gygax's +1 Mace. A dungeon needs lots of them in order to win treasure, guess the answers to riddles, avoid being turned to stone and give the thief in the party the chance to shine. These trials must fit in with theme and ecology.

 

5. Epic OMG Battles with Cool Monsters

 

Each level should have a memorable battle that kind of illustrates all of the other elements of the mega-dungeon rules. For example, fighting the Bugbear chieftan in a room full of flaming arrow traps whilst ordering your newly recruited lizardman mooks into the fray is cool. Fighting a claustrophobic dragon in a cave isn't. Do you remember the Drow battle on the bridge in IWD? That's was an Epic OMG Battle with Cool Monsters.

 

6. Phat L3wt

 

Treasure should be there for the taking if the player is wise. To win the Orb of Sacred Ass-Kicking the party should have used guile, combat and outwitted at least one talking statue. Party members should be bloodied and mangled, with several dead NPCs ready to be carted off to a temple for resurrection.

 

7. Humour

 

I'm not suggesting that the dungeon is like watching a Will Ferrell movie, but slightly tongue-in-cheek humour, used sparingly, is pretty much essential. Time spent around an old-skool gaming table should involve a fair deal of laughter involving critical hits, narrow escapes, grisly deaths, mad wizards, suicidal NPCs, unpredictable behaviour and of course talking statues.

 

8. Size Matters

 

The word mega isn't there for hyperbolic reasons. The mega-dungeon should have scale. You should be awed and perhaps nervous of the terrain, size and scope of the dungeon. You should need to seriously consider trekking back to town at the end of a level because of the challenges faced therein.

 

---

 

There are my rules. Please feel free to add / subtract / whatever. But I hope the non-megadungeon fans can dig that this can be as fun a CRPG experience as anything else in the game.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Monte Carlo

[SqueakyCat]

Wait, so no 10 minute 'Warden's Keep' romp? What you're proposing would require skill, guile and strategy -- heresy I say.

 

Actually, you sized it up perfectly -- nothing to add that wouldn't pale in comparison to your well thought out post.

[Kitan]

Somehow reminds me of Durlags Tower... Let's see how many levels we get ^^ any guesses ? 7 ? 10 ?

[Kaldurenik]

The Old-Skool Mega-Dungeon Rules

 

1. Theme

 

The dungeon needs a reason for being. Because, on the face of it, a bloody great underground maze full of monsters and stuff is a bit mad. So you need a reason: is it a crypt, a mad wizard's lair, a buried city, a cave network, a temple complex, the body of a long-ossified god, the testing grounds of a brutal subterranean cult...? Or maybe a combination of all these things. Obsidian score highly already because they have a Crypt and a Mad Wizard. It's so old-skool I giggled. In a good way.

 

...

 

I agree

[Kasoroth]

Things I don’t want crafting to be:

Just a cheap way of make the player more powerful

A boring, time consuming process

So operpowered that make the items found in the world completely useless (Skyrim , I’m looking at you.)

So underpowered that became pointless

To be required, if you want to survive

 

What a I want crafting to be:

A way to allow the players to use their creativity, provide alternative ways to complete quests and allow different, varied play styles.

 

I agree with this. Overpowered crafting takes away one of the fun aspects of the game (finding cool new loot). Underpowered crafting is disappointing, and really annoying if you have to invest skill points/feats/etc into it, only to discover that the found items are better than what you can craft.

 

I would much rather have it involve remixing found items rather than making things from scratch (I posted some more detailed ideas a few pages back on this thread). The biggest problem I had with Skyrim's crafting was that all the raw materials (with only a few exceptions) were fairly common throughout the game, so it was never exciting to find them.

 

A system based on remixing abilities from found items would mean that finding a weapon with an ability you like could be really cool even it the weapon isn't your preferred type. Instead of being a Skyrim situation where artifacts are just unique decorations for the mannequins in your houses because crafted stuff is better, or other games where you find a battle axe with a really cool power you like, but sell it because you prefer to dual wield short swords, a good crafting system can make found items even more interesting than they would be otherwise.

 

It also means that they don't have to dump tons of items on you to make sure you get one of the desired type. I generally don't like the idea of stores that just sell tons of fancy expensive magic items like they were common trinkets. That's fine for a hack and slash Diabloish game like Torchlight, but I wouldn't want it in a real RPG. The problem with dropping tons of items to make sure everyone can get what they want is that the rest get sold off, the PC gets really rich, and you then need to find something for them to spend that money on. If the cool abilities need to be salvaged from found items, and it costs money to do this unless you learn to do it yourself, that transforms one of the major sources of excess PC wealth into a cost. Most games, by about halfway through, I have way more gold than I know what to do with, and even looting things to sell becomes quite pointless.

 

I also like the idea of having NPCs in towns who can do crafting for you for a price if you don't want to spend the skills/feats/etc. PC (or party NPC) crafting should be a bit of a convenience and cost saver, and at high levels get you a little bonus beyond the best town crafters, but not be absolutely necessary to take advantage of the crafting system.

 

-Kasoroth

[Demoss]

Hope the mega dungeon is similar to Durlags Tower, that was a cool place in BG.

 

Crafting has me worried but whenever i read crafting i think of MMO's or Skyrims (which is pretty much the same), i really do hope you just don't go round gathering resources to make mundane items you can just buy..

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

The dungeon design sound great! I don't know why, but I got a feeling of an Spellhold-isque version of Durlag's Tower. And the growing dungeon concept is a good thing too, IMO. I personally ain't really interested in the crafting and enchanting stuff, but hey, might be there's something in them as well that turns out to be fun. Great update anyways.

Durlag's Tower or Watcher's Keep? Both are nice, although Watcher's Keep is definitely more high fantasy than Durlag's Tower.

I mean I got a feeling of an dungeon equally dangerous as Durlag's Tower but with a twist of a more magical nature, mostly because there was a mention of some failed experiments, which reminded me of Spellhold, even if it only had insane mages instead of failed experiment subjects(which I presume to be of an magical nature).

[Anaeme]

The thing about the Mega dungeon is that people know so little of what it will provide to be excited about it.

 

For me in particular, an endless hack and slash fest is just not motivating.

 

There has got to be a story related reason I am in that dungeon and there has got to be a reason I want to see it to the end...that just me anyways

 

If Obsidian wants to excite people about the dungeon, it has to be more than 'Torchlight Style' hacking and slashing