About Economy in cRPG

[DocDoomII]

Why hello fellow adventurers.

 

I only registered today and would like to give few suggestion regarding economy for this promising project.

Usually in cRPG it goes like this:

Lot of kills

Lot of loots

Go to shop

????

Profit

 

To the point where after few hours you have enough money to buy whatever you need to upgrade your gear whenever you find something more powerful than what you already have.

 

This aspect should be cured and expanded a little more!

I won't talk about implementing 'social' skills like "Barter" or "Haggling" because many cRPG already have such things, and they are quite welcome to have, at least for me. I have other ideas and I'll try to explain them as best as I can even though I'm not so versed at explaining stuff in english (I really suck at writing if I'm not using my language)

 

1-Shopkeepers should not have unlimited money and be smarter

Let's face it, unlimited money from the shopkeepers is fancy and allows us to be laid back and just sell all of our trash in the first shop we see,

BUT there should be a little more realism behind it. Shopkeepers should have only a limited non-totally-fixed amount of money, and their wares should be non-totally-fixed too, to simulate at least a bit the fact that the world is alive.

I'm not talking about a shop having the "Almighty Sword of Doom +5" today and then tomorrow said sword being sold. I'm talking about the common things, like normal weapons and armor in variable amount or even sold out and then the next day the shop would restock.

While with being smarter I just mean that if you are carrying with you 20 "Short Sword of Dullness" and try to sell them all to the same merchant, maybe he could offer you a lower price since you are making such item much more common.

 

2-There should be more than one kind of currency

Even more so in a world such the one that is being described for Project: Eternity with many different races and cultures!

I won't go as far as asking for currency to be valid only in their respective territory of origin, but to have them to maybe loose value the further you are from their place of origin, since travelling and trading in distant land would be difficult.

But I understand that too many currency would just cause confusion and complicate things too much.

 

3-There should be traders that only barter and do not accept money

I'd really love to find myself in some remote land were the population is less civilized than most and they still use barter to trade stuff!

It would be interesting, if out of options, to have to trade a valuable piece of armor for a potion and arrows, even if I would net hundreds more coins by selling it to a shop in another land, just because you can't use your money where you are now.

 

4-The player should be able, if willing, to try and become a 'door to door' trader

Why not? When you have squeezed all the money you can from the shopkeepers, why not go to the local noble, a renowned weapons collector, to see if he is interested in your newly acquired "Sword of Impending Doom +3"

Or maybe go to the local chief of the guards and try to sell him that super cool feathered "Helm of Peerless Presence" that will surely boost his influence over his garrison!

The magic guild in the next city could be interest in buying ingredients for potions or magic scrolls or whatever magical things will be implemented in the game.

 

The possibilities are endless!

 

Share your thoughts!

[Ink Blot]

 

1-Shopkeepers should not have unlimited money and be smarter

Let's face it, unlimited money from the shopkeepers is fancy and allows us to be laid back and just sell all of our trash in the first shop we see,

BUT there should be a little more realism behind it. Shopkeepers should have only a limited non-totally-fixed amount of money, and their wares should be non-totally-fixed too, to simulate at least a bit the fact that the world is alive.

I'm not talking about a shop having the "Almighty Sword of Doom +5" today and then tomorrow said sword being sold. I'm talking about the common things, like normal weapons and armor in variable amount or even sold out and then the next day the shop would restock.

While with being smarter I just mean that if you are carrying with you 20 "Short Sword of Dullness" and try to sell them all to the same merchant, maybe he could offer you a lower price since you are making such item much more common.

 

Agree with the 'smarter' aspect. Icewind Dale did this, if memory serves. The more times you sold a specific item to a merchant, the less he paid for it. As for unlimited money, I'm kind of torn.On the one hand, I absolutely see the reason behind a merchant not having unlimited funds. On the other, all it seems to is force tedious travel to other merchants to unload your loot. And I don't like tedium.

 

 

2-There should be more than one kind of currency

Even more so in a world such the one that is being described for Project: Eternity with many different races and cultures!

I won't go as far as asking for currency to be valid only in their respective territory of origin, but to have them to maybe loose value the further you are from their place of origin, since travelling and trading in distant land would be difficult.

But I understand that too many currency would just cause confusion and complicate things too much.

 

Not sure I like this idea much, but there may be some potential here.

 

 

3-There should be traders that only barter and do not accept money

I'd really love to find myself in some remote land were the population is less civilized than most and they still use barter to trade stuff!

It would be interesting, if out of options, to have to trade a valuable piece of armor for a potion and arrows, even if I would net hundreds more coins by selling it to a shop in another land, just because you can't use your money where you are now.

 

This is an interesting idea, but again, you could just run to another merchant to sell your loot. Unless of course the other merchants are out of funds. But this leads to either the tedium of merchant hopping or eventually all merchants running out of cash if they don't replenish. And that's not really a good option, IMO. If they do replenish, then you just get into the 'rest for consecutive days' syndrome to replenish the cash supply.

 

 

4-The player should be able, if willing, to try and become a 'door to door' trader

Why not? When you have squeezed all the money you can from the shopkeepers, why not go to the local noble, a renowned weapons collector, to see if he is interested in your newly acquired "Sword of Impending Doom +3"

Or maybe go to the local chief of the guards and try to sell him that super cool feathered "Helm of Peerless Presence" that will surely boost his influence over his garrison!

The magic guild in the next city could be interest in buying ingredients for potions or magic scrolls or whatever magical things will be implemented in the game.

 

The possibilities are endless!

 

Share your thoughts!

 

I like this last one. I see no real harm in that, especially since it could lend itself to some cool story-related incidents. What if two different nobles wanted that Helm of Uber Sex Appeal and, while they each offer a great reward for it, the other will be really pissed if you give it to his rival? And maybe he'll send out some of his 'employees' to have a 'chat' with you. Things like that have some real potential.

 

As for overall economy, I can't recall a game that's done a stellar job with it. Most games you get to the point where you're swimming in so much cash that you can afford anything you could possibly want to buy. Either that or you're so flat broke you just can't afford anything. I'd love to see some good balance with respect to this, but I think it's pretty tough to do.

 

Other ideas? How about daily/weekly/monthly maintenance costs for upkeep of your party's gear and equipment, beasts of burden (assuming they're in-game), membership fees to any organizations you may join, upkeep of your house (maybe you need to hire guards to be sure your stuff isn't stolen or your house isn't destroyed). I don't know. Might be too much bother to be any kind of fun though.

[DocDoomII]

1-Shopkeepers should not have unlimited money and be smarter

 

Agree with the 'smarter' aspect. Icewind Dale did this, if memory serves. The more times you sold a specific item to a merchant, the less he paid for it. As for unlimited money, I'm kind of torn.On the one hand, I absolutely see the reason behind a merchant not having unlimited funds. On the other, all it seems to is force tedious travel to other merchants to unload your loot. And I don't like tedium.

 

Well if you consider point 4 you have more options and not necessarily need to look for other shopkeepers. Plus having to walk a bit more than normal in the various cities/settlement would make them less of a "pit stop" (in, sell, out in a whopping 5 seconds).

 

Anyway I like your suggestion on party maintenance (maybe some of the companion can be hired mercenaries?), fee for being member of organizations and income/expenses from managing your house!

I'd also add, as an additional way to gain money here and there, monster trophies as in The Witcher 1, where killing particularly rare and strong creature gave you a money reward from the royal hunter. That would be neat.

[general_azure]

This has been one of the first topics popping up in here. There you go.

[Jarmo]

The threads could be combined?

 

Anyway. I dislike it when village merchants are real cash starved paupers, yet still have 15 millions worth of gear in their shop.

If I had 150 weapons, 8 of them magic, and 97 full suits of armor, I wouldn't be in some tiny hellhole scraping for pennies.

 

I'd like the merchants wares and wealth have some connection.

If there's some corner shop trying to sell wooden clubs and a leather cap,

I wouldn't expect the shopkeeper to be able to just purchase a truckload of diamonds from you.

 

However! I'm sure even a poor merchant wouldn't just turn down a rare magic item.

An option I'd like to see, would be something like: I can't give you the money straight away, but I can make inquiries.

Leave the item here and come back in a week and I should have found a buyer and have your money.

 

You'd get less money than from going straight to that one shop in the capital, but you'd get something.

Well.. unless the shopkeeper would just took of with your treasure cart. Which could be a miniquest.

[DocDoomII]

One think that I personally wouldn't like as a money sink is item durability.

Diablo III is a good example of what I dislike most.

 

And if implemented I would at least like to be able to repair things by myself with raw materials or scraps. I don't want to be forced to go about, find a smith or thinker and pay him to fix my stuff every hour or so.

Edited October 2, 2012 by DocDoomII

[molarBear]

no need to complicate the game. this is not a "tycoon" game. so, NO to all points. i came from slaughtering a dungeon and am full of loot and i want to sell it to the nearest vendor i could find. but, wtf? he only barters?! i go to another one and he pays me in a different currency? puh-lease

[DocDoomII]

no need to complicate the game. this is not a "tycoon" game. so, NO to all points. i came from slaughtering a dungeon and am full of loot and i want to sell it to the nearest vendor i could find. but, wtf? he only barters?! i go to another one and he pays me in a different currency? puh-lease

That wouldn't be random thoug...

If you happen to clear a dungeon in a region inhabited by a tribal race of "whatever" and they don't even know what a coin is, it would be kind of stupid if they had a merchant that trades in gold coins... But maybe you can trade with them for shiny gems or by trading a piece of armor for a mimetic cloak. Why not?

But maybe you like best to 'fast travel' to another continent where gold coin is universally accepted.

[molarBear]

too much realism in a crpg can make it tedious.

[DocDoomII]

We already have enough streamlined cRPG out there.

Dragon Age II is the master of streamlining and unrealism, and its quite awful.

[Halberd]

Maybe give us a trade skill + tons of trade related quests and maybe a way to create and operate your own business?

 

And your business will get you a lot of cash and fame...and maybe have some effect on the plot.

 

As for some of the things suggested in the OP I'm not too sure about. I guess some economic things could be implemented but it all depends on how much money Obsidian gets to develop this game and how much of this actually works and can be worked into the game.

[Chippy]

NWN2 had the right idea. You weren't just rebuilding a keep, but the economy as well. Now if that concept was applied to the whole game it would be great because Obsidian could tie in character growth with actual events: like it takes 3 months to rebuild that critical bridge.

 

- Spoken by someone who has given all of 30 seconds of thought to the subject anyway.

[Wintersong]

too much realism in a crpg can make it tedious.

"Too much" is quite subjective but I do understand the idea.

 

Random player says:

Anything that goes beyond "combat" and "some story", impacts negatively the players' levels of fun. Every game mechanic of the game should be designed to allow you to have awesome combats and some interesting liners by NPCs, and nothing else should interfere in such wonderful activities. We need a pet system like Torchlight so we can send the pet to sell the loot!!! (http://www.penny-arc...omic/2009/11/4/) Or like in Torchlight II, it can buy potions and scrolls for us too!!! Also, give me pointers in the map andover my character's head so I don't have to explore to reach my quest locations!

[DocDoomII]

I know that my topic didn't get too much attention, and therefore the point I wanted to discuss seems to be marginal to most of the furumites, but I'd like to see some hints from the developers.

 

Pwetty pwease

[Osvir]

I like this general thought pattern going on here. I can only nod

 

but I'd like to see some hints from the developers.

 

All in due time I'm sure. Hmm... well, people are curious about the resources in Project: Eternity (Economy & Magic) and Tim Cain said they might do one more Q&A *shrug*

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61130-update-16-reward-updates-combat-with-tim-mods-and-the-mega-dungeon-grows/page__st__40?do=findComment&comment=1226519

We'll see. Obsidian's own resource's bidding, they'd take all of our ideas and put on one sandwich and we could watch the chaos unfold xD

[hideo kuze]

Registered 1 October... 6 October... 172 posts O_O

 

1-Shopkeepers should not have unlimited money and be smarter

Agreed.

A system like FO 1/2 would be good.

And most traders should be able to follow the laws of offer and demand.

 

I think the best solution would be for normal items to be cheap, so it doesn't pay off to go with pack-mule-everything-to-sell-merchant schemes.

Magical items should be rare, so that you think twice before selling them.

 

 

2-There should be more than one kind of currency

I don't agree.

Look at history, like 4000 years ago. Precious metals were always used as a common currency.

 

 

3-There should be traders that only barter and do not accept money

I doubt this will fit the game.

 

 

4-The player should be able, if willing, to try and become a 'door to door' trader

On particular instances that would be ok.

[DocDoomII]

2-There should be more than one kind of currency

 

I don't agree.

Look at history, like 4000 years ago. Precious metals were always used as a common currency.

 

I'm not saying that a country should have gold coins and another stone coins. I'm saying that they should have different value. Like between € and $. In the past a silver coin of a region din't have the same value of that of another because the amount of silver in the actual money was different.

Or look at the various fallout games, there were caps, real pre fallout currency, even beverage can's opening tab (or whatever they are called).

Edited October 6, 2012 by DocDoomII

[Osvir]

What about rare random traveling merchants & caravans on the road?

 

Like, only 2-3 in the world and chances are you would meet about 1~ maybe 2 in one playthrough would be pretty slim. New Game+ feature, if you met one last gameplay there's higher chance you'll meet one of the others? Eeeeeh I doon't knoow *italian shrug*

[DocDoomII]

 

What about rare random traveling merchants & caravans on the road?

 

Like, only 2-3 in the world and chances are you would meet about 1~ maybe 2 in one playthrough would be pretty slim. New Game+ feature, if you met one last gameplay there's higher chance you'll meet one of the others?

 

Traveling merchants... hm, nice idea, I totally forgot such a nice feature from the recent fallout games.

 

 

Eeeeeh I doon't knoow *italian shrug*

 

 

I'm italian, and this is most definitely funny. Especially from 2:33.

[Aldereth]

Personally, I think the bigger problem with shop is its usefulness in mid to late game. The only function for shops are places where the player can sell off his/her loot. Few if any game would sell the best weapon or equipment in a shop because it cheapens the reward the game give you from questing or adventuring which is the bulk of the game.

 

In turn, the core issue with the cRPG economy is that currency in mid-late game is even more worthless than the fiat currency that central banks of the world are printing in the real world. The problem is, the real demand or "want" in most if not all game world are equipment and so far the primary route to provide fulfill this want is through loot from monsters.

 

Limiting money will help in only help by just not giving the player infinite amount of money. However, even if the game gave the player infinite amount of money; by around mid-late game, there is nothing to spend it on other than white-elephant project like player housing. After the house, the player may as well drop his 50 Trillion gold piece in the house and the player won't even miss it. I would like to see a cRPG that would limit the amount of overall world currency and give more more reactivity, more "game" for money other than buying equipment, and ingredients or player houses.

 

Here is an example. First limit the amount of amount using one of the system suggested above or any other one. Let most of the village, town and maybe even city have different state of evolution. When player either spend enough money by selling loot, sleeping in the inn, the city will level up. The tiles that was a field in a village, could become another shop. And at different level of development, certain NPC may become recruitable or that NPC could have a different class for different level of development. So at village level, the NPC the party rescue in chapter one would be a recruitable ranger but if enough money is spend (and mayhaps in conjunction with certain factor), this NPC would become a mage instead. Another variation is to make different items become available for different settlement. With limited money, this could lead to further replayability. "Game+" mode could have a world full of metropolis and an absolute inavailability of NPC druids

Edited October 6, 2012 by Aldereth

[Rabain]

1-Shopkeepers should not have unlimited money and be smarter

2-There should be more than one kind of currency

3-There should be traders that only barter and do not accept money

4-The player should be able, if willing, to try and become a 'door to door' trader

 

1. If there was a dynamic drain on the players income then the issue of unlimited money on merchants wouldn't be such a big issue. Consider if you have a fortress and suddenly you have an influx of cash from questing or whatever, the game could then trigger an event at your fortress that requires a lot of your gold, say storm damage or a poor harvest and you need to feed the peasants etc. Now this doesn't need to be a yoke on the player but actually a response to a large increase in player income. Or prices at the vendors could just rise by X% in response to you having more gold, after all, you are a really the only person buying from them.

 

This could work though if it was done to be a mix of limited gold and barter, the kind of system you have in Fallout 3.

 

2. I don't think more than one currency really serves a purpose, all it means is you would require a Foreign Exchange merchant somewhere, it would just be added tedium that doesn't add much to the game. I'm all for having copper/silver/gold just not USD, GBP, EUR etc.

 

3. Barter sounds like a good idea but in a game it never really works, at least true barter does not. You still need a base currency in order to establish a value. I have an armor to trade, the other guy has some arrows but doesn't need armor so he doesn't value it highly, so how many arrows is it worth? If I can wait 5 minutes and travel to a cash vendor and get 10g, then buy twice as many arrows would it be worth even having barter at all?

 

Like I said above I think this could work if it was like Fallout 3. You have very little gold, so does the merchant but you can trade 1000's of golds worth of goods to each other so long as the difference in value of give and take is below both your gold values.

 

4. That could be a good feature or very odd. If you can ask everyone if they want to buy something how do you find out exactly who would give you a better price than a merchant? If it was a limited feature where for example you have a Helm to sell but the merchant doesn't want it, he could direct you to the Captain of Guard who was looking for a new helm just yesterday etc. Maybe the Captain then tells you he will give you X more gold than the local merchants for 10 swords. It would not be a quest but just like a piece of gossip and you have a decent way to make some extra gold for the gear you pick up.

 

At the very least the game might need some gold sink so that the players gold doesn't just keep piling up. Maybe once you get rich the king or whoever asks you to donate to open an university or for another company of soldiers for the army etc.

[Nonek]

Taxes, i'd like to see them implemented for once. We've got a little house in some city, then we're going to have to contribute to the public purse, the same as everybody else. Not only that but if we're travelling with full purses and bulging backpacks, we should expect to be taxed just as heavily as the wandering peddler who seeks entrance to a foreign city to sell his goods.

 

Of course there's one sure way to avoid taxation, and that's to become part of the landed gentry, but that has its own drawbacks. Feudal nobility are excused taxes because they provide service to their feudal masters, in the form of military and economic aid. So if we are proud owners of that keep on the borderlands, then we can expect at some point to be called upon to serve king and country. If we fail to do so, well that's called treason and is punishable by death. This is not an option I can see many players liking, or the reality that those peasants working the fields from dawn 'til dusk are basically slaves under the protagonist armoured thumb.

[Shevek]

To a certain extent, I think the way cRPGs work currently with respect to the economy is good. I mean, ya, the player can amass large quantaties of cash. Isn't that a good thing? Doesn't the player want his character to get filthy stinking rich?

 

I do think that a skill should be tied to buying and selling (as you mentioned). Looking at your other suggestions:

 

1. BG already reduced the money they gave you when you sold them many of the same item. I would agree that shopkeeps should have limited funds but they should regen back over time.

2. I don't like multiple kinds of currency. That tends to make trading a headache.

3. I would prefer if ALL merchants bartered AND sold for gold.

4. I don't like the idea of bartering with everyone. I have played games that did this but I am not a fan of going around trading stuff with everyone I can. I feel it breaks immersion a bit.

[Hypevosa]

you know what I'd find interesting? If you sold an item to a vendor and there was a chance that someone you fight later on stole or bought that item for themselves and use it against you... ;D

[The Nexus]

I think the most important thing is to make gold less frequent. A problem I had in Skyrim was that a beggar could eat for a week on only 5 gold, and yet within an hour of play I could easily make 1000+ gold from doing basically nothing. I'd like gold to be a bit harder to come by, or atleast make the amounts you aquire less extravagant.