Project Eternity's longevity will be determined by its modability

[metiman]

Care to cite some specifics examples of the mods you used? I can't even play vanilla BG or BG2 without Sword Coast Stratagems, Baldur's Gate Trilogy, etc. anymore.

 

Well let's look at the first mod you've quoted.

 

Sword Coast Strategems

1. you get to choose all NPC weapon proficiencies when they join

2. you can skip the Candlekeep tutorial and just get the experience and treasure.

3. Reintroduce potions of extra-healing

4. Allow Yeslick to use axes

5. Move Boo out of quick access and into Minsc's pack

etc

 

My response?

 

1. Lets make the NPCs OP than they are. Great stuff.

2. Why not skip anything you like and get the experience and treasure? Hey, I'm too lazy to actually play the game to get the xp and treasure by actually doing it.

3. Potions of extra-healing? Yep, just add all that game breaking and OP items.

4. Another example to make a NPC OP.

5. Yep, another way to make Minsc OP by freeing up a slot. He's already OP, you don't need to move Boo.

etc

 

I can list more game breaking and OP way for items and NPCs but I'll stop at five.

 

1. OP=?

2. I don't remember that feature. If it's there it is 100% optional. I do sometimes use a mod called Dungeon-Be-Gone which does something like that.

I assume you are aware that there are various mod options that make Chateau Irenicus 1000x more difficult than in vanilla mode right? If you think the mods are there to make the game easier then you don't have a clue.

3. Huh? Potions of extra healing and much worse are given to your enemies. Not to you. It makes the game much more difficult. But the thieves with nearly infinite invisibility potions make things even harder. So I just don't turn on the potion option. Almost every part of SCS is customizable. So I just don't install the parts that I don't like.

4. If you are talking about the party NPCs then you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about.

5. Does anyone actually use Minsc? He's annoying as hell and he's not a particularly powerful character. And you don't have to move the rat out of the pack. You can leave him there if you want.

 

It's obvious that you have never played BG2 with SCSII installed and that you have no idea what you are talking about. I've played BG2 + SCS many times with many different options. It isn't perfect but not for any of the reasons you mention. The Demons are way too poweful with their teleporting abilities and other things if you turn that on. I don't. So it doesn't affect me. There are a few other parts that are a bit buggy or that make your adversaries overpowered. There is almost nothing that makes the game easier or makes you overpowered. That is totally not the point of the mod.

 

BTW, you are really missing out. With SCSII installed the already strategic battles become much more so. The enemies do nearly everything that you do. The enemy thieves go invisible and backstab your mages before they can get their first spells off. The mages themselves already have stoneskin cast so that you can't just nail them with arrows or whatever to prevent them from getting off their initial spells. Enemy mages will web your party right from the start or do other smart (sometimes to the point of being slightly cheesy) things. With SCS installed the game is both harder and more fun.

 

Other mods fix bugs and make things work more logically. The OP is 100% correct that modability extends the life of a game. Well at least a game with the kind of replay value that BG2 has. Modding may not have added much to Torment.

[Volourn]

"5. Does anyone actually use Minsc? He's annoying as hell and he's not a particularly powerful character. And you don't have to move the rat out of the pack. You can leave him there if you want.

 

It's obvious that you have never played BG2 with SCSII installed and that you have no idea what you are talking about. "

 

For someone who brags about BG series and its mod you obviously are ignorant of npc popularity. I'm no Minsc fans (in fact I find him annoying at best and a cheater at worst); but he is the most popular character in BG chronicles with maybe just maybe Viconia a few points behind.

[Nakia]

I like Minsc but my favorites in BG SoA are Edwin, Korgan and Jan. I know people who are crazy about Jahzira (so?) Who like and what we like varies from person to person and that is why mods are popular. They make it possible for us to tailor the game to our likes and ddislikes. No game is perfect because no game can make everyone happy 100%.

[Shadenuat]

Yes I want modding, because maybe moders will make game turn-based

[metiman]

"5. Does anyone actually use Minsc? He's annoying as hell and he's not a particularly powerful character. And you don't have to move the rat out of the pack. You can leave him there if you want.

 

It's obvious that you have never played BG2 with SCSII installed and that you have no idea what you are talking about. "

 

For someone who brags about BG series and its mod you obviously are ignorant of npc popularity. I'm no Minsc fans (in fact I find him annoying at best and a cheater at worst); but he is the most popular character in BG chronicles with maybe just maybe Viconia a few points behind.

 

I never made any claims about his popularity. I always figured that tweens would love his character and the preteen humor of his dialogue. It's just hard to believe anyone would want that guy. I know people like Jaheira too which always amazes me as well. I just want to kill her as soon as possible. If I were able to torture her in game I would do that too.

[Shevek]

I loved the moddability of BG2. Most of my replays nowadays are BG1/2 combo installs with a whole bunch of fan bug fixes and minor additions.

 

Without the mod community that grew around the IE games, I doubt I would replay them as much as I did. Modding tools are the single most fruitful addition Obsidian can make. Think about it, by releasing a set of tools, they can instantly add dozens upon dozens of people to the single-minded cause of improving their game for them at no cost. Modders like the Pocket Plane Group, Spellhold Studios and others channel their efforts into fine-tuning and enriching the IE games as much as they could. This was their hobby. They did this because they were passionate and had a desire to make the games as perfect as they could.

 

Frankly, if the devs want to really get even more people behind this game, they should make some basic mod tools and release them BEFORE the game is out. The tools do not have to be super user friendly either. They should be aiming at making some highly functional tools that a talented minority can use well. That will allow those in the (still active) IE mod community to channel their efforts into this game if they are interested.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Shevek

[Aedelric]

Mods often create nice communities around games, the longevity is not strictly determined by mods but it does help quite a lot, especially when the development team has large gaps between sequels/expansions/DLC's.

 

Morrowind has had many, many mods, the community is still active today, an example is with the mega mod Tamriel Rebuilt, this all after two very popular Bethesda squeals released. Rome Total War is still alive and kicking, not long ago RTR VII was released and this after Medieval/Empire/Shugun II.

 

Not everyone appreciates mods but most do, so many mod projects have download numbers in the thousands. If Obsidian include it as a 2.5 million stretch goal I will bet they will hit it fairly quickly, Planescape total conversion anyone?

[Blackstream]

It's irrevelent whether posters in this thread or elsewhere like mods, or specific mods, or whatever. The point is, there ARE people that like mods, and there ARE people that like making mods, and by including mod functionality, you engage that playerbase, and it increases the longevity of the game for those people. To not include mods these days is to basically intentionally hamstring the potential of your game.

 

When playing baldur's gate 2, or really any game that has mods, there's one very important thing I ALWAYS end up looking for, and that's bug fix mods. The devs are great, and possibly even in this case they'll actually keep updating and fixing bugs, but let's be honest, Obsidian games aren't exactly known for being bug free, and if there's one thing a fanatical playerbase will do, it's make patches that fix bugs.

 

Even recent games have this issue. Take dragon age origins. I'm not sure about the current state of the game, but there's a mod called Qwinn's Unofficial DA:O Fixpack that fixed a lot of bugs as of according to the desc patch 1.03, making the game more playable for everyone and not having to wait for the developers to eventually get around to fixing everything. Then we have the following expansion, Dragon Age: Awakening, as I recall, never updated the toolset for awakening assets and the such for some reason, and as such, there were bugs the community could not fix (and doing some research, some bugs even the devs themselves couldn't fix (silverite mine bug being a more notable one), which the players can't fix without access to the data either. Checking the mod database, there's finally something for it, but reading the comments, it's like 50% whether it works or doesn't and possibly screws things up even more.

 

 

Things other than bug fixes people often like to do with mods, graphic updates, extra npcs, more dialogue, and yes, more quests and items and gameplay changes.

 

For example, in baldur's gate 2, other than fixpacks, one of the biggest mods I had installed was ascension. The boss fights in vanilla were honestly pretty weaksauce, and ascension made things badass and hard. It was also made by a dev I believe who filled in things they had planned to put in anyways, so some of the extra things (trial powers) I didn't even feel bad about adding. There were also quest packs where people found stuff in the code and basically reenabled and stuff like that, that's more debatable, as well as banter packs because the game feels kind of quiet to me with base dialogue, but mostly I wanted ascension, the fixpack, and the exp limiter removal (mostly because I don't like how the exp cap affects dual/multi-class characters, especially if you're soloing one.

 

You can disagree with my choices, maybe even all of them, but the point is, there's people that want mods for different reasons, and adding the functionality will make people happy and keep people playing longer.

[nikolokolus]

Mods often create nice communities around games, the longevity is not strictly determined by mods but it does help quite a lot, especially when the development team has large gaps between sequels/expansions/DLC's.

 

Morrowind has had many, many mods, the community is still active today, an example is with the mega mod Tamriel Rebuilt, this all after two very popular Bethesda squeals released. Rome Total War is still alive and kicking, not long ago RTR VII was released and this after Medieval/Empire/Shugun II.

 

Not everyone appreciates mods but most do, so many mod projects have download numbers in the thousands. If Obsidian include it as a 2.5 million stretch goal I will bet they will hit it fairly quickly, Planescape total conversion anyone?

 

The only trouble is, we don't know if that dollar amount ($200K over the previous stretch goal) is a realistic figure for the game to either come with a toolkit, or easily expose assets for modding.

 

I think having a mod-able game is a great idea in theory, but not knowing the technical hurdles they have to overcome to make one or to open up the hood - so to speak - means we shouldn't be setting targets for them.

[markness05]

I can't believe people are so indifferent about mods. Mods are essential imo for a game that will be played multiple times. They keep it fresh, improve it, strip away the annoying things that will bother you on repeated play throughs, and constantly introduce new players by keeping up interest in the game. It would be a tragedy if PE did not have mod support.

[GhostofAnakin]

Good games are what is truly remembered and played time and again.

 

FO 1&2, PS:T, BG 2 etc, would still be played even if you couldn't mod a single thing.

 

This. It's the quality of the game that will determine PE's longevity.

 

Being the most mod-friendly game ever, and having millions of mods made for it, won't matter a lick if the core game sucks and people have a hard time pushing through it.

[Aedelric]

They are using Unity, so mod tools/support are not impossible.

[nikolokolus]

I can't believe people are so indifferent about mods. Mods are essential imo for a game that will be played multiple times. They keep it fresh, improve it, strip away the annoying things that will bother you on repeated play throughs, and constantly introduce new players by keeping up interest in the game. It would be a tragedy if PE did not have mod support.

 

Believe it or not, some people don't like installing mods or altering the out-of-the-box game ... I'm not in that camp, but there are plenty of people who are.

[Potemkin]

To add mod support if they reach 3 milion dollar or something that InExile did with Wasteland 2 seems to be a smart move.

 

Mod support is a must. Look at Warcraft 3 for example. That game still sells a lot of copies due to the active community around custom made maps. I mean, how popular would WC3 had been if the community hadn't developed DotA? Also, look at Morrowind & Neverwinter Nights for a good example of still active game communities. An active mod community would help to sell the Project Eternity for years.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Potemkin

[Tale]

Being the most mod-friendly game ever, and having millions of mods made for it, won't matter a lick if the core game sucks and people have a hard time pushing through it.

It worked wonders for Neverwinter Nights.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky. That seems to be a commonly held opinion.

[Ieo]

A game that NEEDS modding to be good is not a good game. A game that is good but encourages modding is a great game. It will live on and it will enhance the reputation of the developers. I am hoping that there will be a toolkit for this game.

 

I have to agree with this. I hate DLC games because the business is never encouraged to ship a game with as much content as reasonably possible. A story-driven SP game like PE must ship as complete and at peak quality as possible.

 

Mods add flavor, may be used to balance unintended mechanics effects or add specific challenges, add convenience for more replayability (e.g. Chateau d'Irenicus), and of course add pure content.

 

Some mods serve a critical purpose in extending game content to audiences that were not addressed in the base game (e.g. translation).

 

Good examples are the BG2 romances. There were three for a male PC and only one crappy one for female PCs. I mean, Anomen. I haven't played the BG2 romance mods intended to address the lack of options for female PCs, but I definitely see their use in this case.

 

I thought I read somewhere that the Unity engine has support for player modding tools? That's the ultimate determining factor, though.

[CosmicCommander]

I advocate mods for PE; yes, a great deal of it will be a load of weeaboo rubbish and ultra-tier weapons and armour. But it's worth it for those one or two mods that are truly fantastic to play: in almost every game with mod capabilities, I've always seen at least one mod that is worth playing and enhances the game for me. Whether it be a standalone adventure, another quest, an innovative new item, or an interesting companion. It's vital that PE has mods.

[Wirdjos]

Good games are what is truly remembered and played time and again.

 

FO 1&2, PS:T, BG 2 etc, would still be played even if you couldn't mod a single thing.

 

A good game is the foundation, I agree. Without a good game at the base, who cares if you can mod it?

 

Moreover, not all games are equally as worth modding. For example, as much as I love the game, I don't have much interest in Planescape: Torment mods beyond general bug fixes or restoring unfinished quests. Why? Because to me, Torment is primarily about its central storyline, and messing with that is as obnoxious as...say, adding a few new characters or plotlines to a newly released version of Casablanca or something. Torment is not the optimal game for modding, to me.

 

But then you have games like BG2 or Arcanum, which have their central storyline, but that central storyline is very obviously not the most important point. The most important point is the exploration and the quests and the companions that surround it, the atmosphere and the world and the characters. In such cases, not everything added to the mix is good (yeah, there are plenty of horrible mods out there), but if it is good, it can add immeasurably to your enjoyment of the game. To sneer off everything that comes after the developers release a game because it wasn't made by the developers is close minded in the extreme, and as far as I'm concerned the surprising number of people in this thread who dismiss mods out of hand are only doing a disservice to themselves.

 

But I digress. You're right that a good game is likely to be played by fans for nostalgia's sake and played long after it has been forgotten by the vast majority of the gaming world, moddable or no. God knows I have had a few (unmodded) games on my computer that have been there a lot longer than they reasonably should have been.

 

The game itself, however, remains as it was. It will never have new things to see or do. For some games, that's fine; it fits the game. For others, to have new things to see and do is a pleasure which keeps a game popular long after it should reasonably have faded into memory.

 

I completely agress with you, Death Machine Miyagi! What you described BG2 and Arcanum as is exactly the game I want to PE to become. I love to explore and added content from modders is a great way to keep that fresh and improve replayability. But that is largely what mods do, add replayability. Modding and a toolset won't likely be all that important at launch. I would support adding a second Kickstarter after launch for the development and release of a toolset, but then I'm hugely in favor of multiple fundrasiers for adding content and such after the fact.

 

I think that like BG asking for something like a toolset (especially one to create areas since you would need to create area art to do that) may be a bit farfetched, but I do hope that PE will be as easy for people to mod as the IE games have been.

 

How was the area art issue solved in BG? That does sound like a pretty big hurdle.

[Ieo]

It looks like mod capabilities are still very much up in the air according to Update #12. So we'll have to sit tight... I would suggest pro-modders maintain discourse during the development period as a reminder, but not harrassing, and Obsidian is aware of the conversation about it.

[nikolokolus]

Being the most mod-friendly game ever, and having millions of mods made for it, won't matter a lick if the core game sucks and people have a hard time pushing through it.

It worked wonders for Neverwinter Nights.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky. That seems to be a commonly held opinion.

 

I don't think that's snarky at all. NWN 1's story was so ... ummm ... cartoonish and bland that I only managed to slog through a single play-through before switching gears and doing nothing but playing on a small role-play, hardcore persistent world for the next 4 years. That was a multiplayer game with single player tacked on.

[aVENGER]

How was the area art issue solved in BG? That does sound like a pretty big hurdle.

 

We usually recycle 2D backgrounds from other games i.e. Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Pool of Radiance 2... etc. However, there are also several talented artists in the modding community who have made some very beautiful original content as well.

[Wirdjos]

How was the area art issue solved in BG? That does sound like a pretty big hurdle.

 

We usually recycle 2D backgrounds from other games i.e. Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Pool of Radiance 2... etc. However, there are also several talented artists in the modding community who have made some very beautiful original content as well.

 

Ooo, original artwork? That sounds quite exciting!

Edited September 29, 2012 by Wirdjos

[Nakia]

It looks like mod capabilities are still very much up in the air according to Update #12. So we'll have to sit tight... I would suggest pro-modders maintain discourse during the development period as a reminder, but not harrassing, and Obsidian is aware of the conversation about it.

 

It sounded as if they are at least considering it. Naturally the emphasis right now is the game itself. He mentioned a year down the line which makes sense to me. It is much to early to be working on a toolkit but at least with threads like this one they will know that there are people interested in it. The squeaking wheel gets the oil. So those of us who would like modding tools should keep politely squeaking. Those think that a modding toolkit would deprive them of something in the game are wrong. The game comes first and then the toolkit. That way no one loses.

[Volourn]

"I don't think that's snarky at all. NWN 1's story was so ... ummm ... cartoonish and bland "

 

Yeah, because BG's story was so non cartoonish and nonbland/typical fantasy.

 

(for the record, I prefer BG to the NWN OC but if youa re gonna criticize something make sure to make sense)>

[GhostofAnakin]

Being the most mod-friendly game ever, and having millions of mods made for it, won't matter a lick if the core game sucks and people have a hard time pushing through it.

It worked wonders for Neverwinter Nights.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky. That seems to be a commonly held opinion.

 

I think where we differ is that I don't believe NWN's core game sucked. It was what I'd call an "average" game, made much better overall because of the MP persistent world stuff.