Romance in Project Eternity: How Important, How Much

[Gorth]

I hope that Obsidian will make the kind of game that they can genuinely be proud of, a game-as-artistic-creation, a game that the great MCA and Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer would themselves enjoy playing. Artistic integrity demands nothing less.

Well put.

 

I put my money down for exactly that, not a forum consensus game. If it features romance, so be it. If it is just unrequited desire, so be it and if it's just a lighthearted flirt so be it. Oh, and if it's not there, I wouldn't bat an eyelid either

[Haggendal]

I completely leave it up to the writers to decide whether it makes sense during the circumstances of the story and setting.

Just be careful not to half-ass it or shove it down your throat à la Bioware and I'm cool with literally anything.

[Bos_hybrid]

Also, in theory, there shouldn't even be any feedback between writers and their audience, simply because that's how it's normally done in every other medium and, you know, that artistic integrity thing.

 

So why are you posting in favour of romances? It works both ways.

 

Don't demand romance, and people won't demand no romances. Obs will do whatever they feel is best anyway.

Well, the idea was to make a point that romance is typical in fantasy literature, so lobbying against it specifically is strange. And the obligatory and true "devs should make what they want either way". These two points don't really have to contradict each other.

 

So are a thousand other things, it doesn't mean they need to be in PE.

 

Always trying find reasons why romances need to be included. Just state you want them in, instead of trying to come up with some reason or credibility on why they should be in.

[lordgizka]

So are a thousand other things, it doesn't mean they need to be in PE.

 

Always trying find reasons why romances need to be included. Just state you want them in, instead of trying to come up with some reason or credibility on why they should be in.

That is true, they do not. However, they can be if Obsidian decides they are valuable within their story. Also, saying that something should not be attacked does not equal expressing one's appreciation for that something. The problem is, there are two possible scenarios next: one, Obsidian announces romance to be included, and people who don't like them *demand* them to be taken out (by virtues of the whole thing being a Kickstarter project and human sense of entitlement); and two - the opposite happens with the opposite result. And since the community appears to be very vocal about this, both of these events might make the game worse, and that would be a problem.

[Bos_hybrid]

Also, saying that something should not be attacked.

 

But it is open to being discussed just like every other feature. Just so happens that both sides are like dogs(or a gorilla in one case) with bones, they aren't letting go or giving up.

 

The problem is, there are two possible scenarios next: one, Obsidian announces romance to be included, and people who don't like them *demand* them to be taken out (by virtues of the whole thing being a Kickstarter project and human sense of entitlement); and two - the opposite happens with the opposite result. .

 

That was always going to happen, you have several groups of gamers meeting here, BSN, Codex, Obs etc. All with different opinions on what makes rpgs. Happened on the Wasteland 2 forums too.

 

And since the community appears to be very vocal about this, both of these events might make the game worse, and that would be a problem

 

Not going to happen. If Obs make romances, they aren't going to bow to the those that don't want them. Just like they won't bow to those that do want them.

[TrashMan]

You know what they say...

• You can't win romance debates, you can only break even.
  
• You can only break even at absolute zero, where all discussion freezes.
  
• You can never reach absolute zero.
  

[Totottoro]

Romances are good, when their not messing with the story, but adding a little extra enjoyment in to the game. Lets use the word distraction here, ok? Distracting from the day-to-day happenings and giving a reprieve in the middle of.. you know, saving the world (or destroying if that's more your cup'o joe).

[Crusty]

Out of curiosity, if we had a single romance integrated into the story, how would people feel about that?

 

Assuming a non-BioWarean player centric ego stroking romantic wish fulfillment fantasy approach, what if there is only one romantic character that is only available for straight female PCs as the character were to be a male NPC. The romance would also be apart of the central narrative arc and is an issue that can't be avoided or skipped. You can avoid the romance in the end, but it's an issue that constantly rears it's head and you can't avoid confronting it.

 

How would people feel about that?

Edited September 27, 2012 by Crusty

[evdk]

Kill it with fire. Mostly due to the "can't be avoided" bit.

[kenup]

Out of curiosity, if we had a single romance integrated into the story, how would people feel about that?

 

-snip- player centric ego stroking romantic wish fulfillment fantasy -snip- available for straight female PC -snip-

How would people feel about that?

On top of that add a nude mod from nexus, a few BDSM outfits with the highest possible armour rating for the player character and..... no thanks, I'll just go get a drink.

[Loki Ador]

 

Assuming a non-BioWarean player centric ego stroking romantic wish fulfillment fantasy approach,

 

 

Calm down, pal. Such statements and ways of categorizing people in a not-very-respectful manner will not make for a serene discussion.

[Crusty]

Maybe, and apologies if anyone gets offended. But it is what it is. Lots of conventions in RPGs come down to fulfilling power fantasies of some sort. I mean, look at Diablo. Romance in the way we mostly see in BioWare games, just happens to be another.

 

edit: And before someone tells me that "we're not talking about BioWare romances", I used that terminology so that I could pose a hypothetical scenario that wasn't like BioWare's approach to see how people would feel about it.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Crusty

[evdk]

It tells you a lot of things when "Bioware romance" becomes terminus technicus.

[BSoda]

It tells you a lot of things when "Bioware romance" becomes terminus technicus.

...though that term is mostly spin-doctoring by those vehemently against any form of romance in PE.

[evdk]

Those people are so vehemently against romances mainly because EA Bioware managed to **** up the execution so much it paints all other attempts in a bad light just by existing. Achievement Unlocked: Gross Game Design Failure.

[Terror K]

I kind of just wish Obsidian would tell us whether they are putting them in the game or not, just so we can get a lot of these silly debates out of the way. At least then we'd know either way. If they're in, then cool... it was already part of the game and intended as so. If not... well... perhaps fans who want it can suggest them as another one of the Kickstarter goals for hitting the 2.4 Million mark or something.

[ravenshrike]

Not alone. I would hugely prefer no actual sex scenes.

Since there's a player house the closest thing to a sex scene that would be not completely asinine would be for the PC and romance to share the same room at/near the end of the romance arc. So instead of being in/starting off in(depending on whether they move around in the house autonomously) their normal place, they're in the PC's room.Then again, that probably wouldn't work for certain character archetypes. Dunno, it depends on how much customization there is of the house vs random stuff appearing after quest completion. Like a dragon's skull over the entryway after you take one down. Edited September 27, 2012 by ravenshrike

[Minttunator]

I kind of just wish Obsidian would tell us whether they are putting them in the game or not, just so we can get a lot of these silly debates out of the way. At least then we'd know either way. If they're in, then cool... it was already part of the game and intended as so.

 

That's cool, but you know as well as I do that when that happens, there'll be a deluge of posts from the same people demanding gay/furry/transgender romance arcs. There's already been a few. I'm not sure that situation would be preferrable to the status quo.

 

An unrealistic Kickstarter stretch goal would be nice, though, to get more money out of them - I'm thinking something in the region of 4M.

[evdk]

4M is too low. The tenacious bastards might actually succeed and then where would we be?

[Starwars]

Those people are so vehemently against romances mainly because EA Bioware managed to **** up the execution so much it paints all other attempts in a bad light just by existing. Achievement Unlocked: Gross Game Design Failure.

 

While it holds true that I think Bioware romances are generally horrible and pandering messes, the problem is a much deeper one for me. Basically that, if you're gonna sell a romance for me then it needs to be done realistically. It needs to be paced right. The writing needs to be spot-on. There needs to be branches even *within* the romance itself. It needs to not just cut off character development for players who choose *not* to follow the romance.

 

Basically, it would take a pretty damn tremendous writing/testing effort if it were to work well. And that effort is quite frankly something that I would much rather be put into something else.

 

That is to say, at least if we are talking about "classic" romances. Where you have someone in the party that you develop an on-going romance with.

 

I am not opposed to love, relationships, sex and all that be apart of the actual game-world like with New Vegas for example. Where it's treated as one-off trysts (for the player I mean). It was like this in Alpha Protocol as well (though slightly more developed). It's when you get into the real trials and tribulations of being in an actual on-going relationship in a game, that the problems and development resource-hogging will just pile on and on. It's already a challenge to write characters that are believable in themselves, that provides reactivity to the player and the game world, that will possibly delve into different "branches" depending on whether he/she agrees or disagrees with the player.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Starwars

[dlux]

@starwars: don't feed the trolls.

 

Anyhoo, I like romances. They can improve a game if they are well written, like in BG2.

Edited September 27, 2012 by dlux

[evdk]

Those people are so vehemently against romances mainly because EA Bioware managed to **** up the execution so much it paints all other attempts in a bad light just by existing. Achievement Unlocked: Gross Game Design Failure.

 

While it holds true that I think Bioware romances are generally horrible and pandering messes, the problem is a much deeper one for me. Basically that, if you're gonna sell a romance for me then it needs to be done realistically. It needs to be paced right. The writing needs to be spot-on. There needs to be branches even *within* the romance itself. It needs to not just cut off character development for players who choose *not* to follow the romance.

 

Basically, it would take a pretty damn tremendous writing/testing effort if it were to work well. And that effort is quite frankly something that I would much rather be put into something else.

 

That is to say, at least if we are talking about "classic" romances. Where you have someone in the party that you develop an on-going romance with.

 

I am not opposed to love, relationships, sex and all that be apart of the actual game-world like with New Vegas for example. Where it's treated as one-off trysts (for the player I mean). It was like this in Alpha Protocol as well (though slightly more developed). It's when you get into the real trials and tribulations of being in an actual on-going relationship in a game, that the problems and development resource-hogging will just pile on and on. It's already a challenge to write characters that are believable in themselves, that provides reactivity to the player and the game world, that will possibly delve into different "branches" depending on whether he/she agrees or disagrees with the player.

This is basically what Sawyer has written elsewhere, that romances should be either non present or one of the focuses of the game. I'd say such a spotlight would be out of scope for this project and including some half assed attempt at romance just to appease vocal fans seems beneath Obsidian. But we shall see and there will be further flamewars on this subjects either way.

 

 

@starwars: don't feed the trolls.

 

Waaaaah, leave Bioware alone!

[metiman]

There has been talk of a subduing game mechanic. I like that. Perhaps we could introduce a similar component for romances. For player characters with low charisma who do not have even the slightest hope of romancing one of his/her sexy companions an option to use the intimidation skill or the same technique used to subdue a dragon might be interesting options. The pc might essentially hold the character against their will and force them to engage in various sexual acts and forms of humiliation. Perhaps even letting all the other party members have a go as well. They would obey you not out of loyalty or some sappy puppy love, but out of stark fear for their life. They know you are dangerous. They don't doubt that you would kill them if they attempted to escape and torture them if they are captured. That would seem a lot more interesting than sappy girlish romances.

[evdk]

There has been talk of a subduing game mechanic. I like that. Perhaps we could introduce a similar component for romances. For player characters with low charisma who do not have even the slightest hope of romancing one of his/her sexy companions an option to use the intimidation skill or the same technique used to subdue a dragon might be interesting options. The pc might essentially hold the character against their will and force them to engage in various sexual acts and forms of humiliation. Perhaps even letting all the other party members have a go as well. They would obey you not out of loyalty or some sappy puppy love, but out of stark fear for their life. They know you are dangerous. They don't doubt that you would kill them if they attempted to escape and torture them if they are captured. That would seem a lot more interesting than sappy girlish romances.

Way to amp up the general creepiness level of this thread, ****.

[Minttunator]

There has been talk of a subduing game mechanic. I like that. Perhaps we could introduce a similar component for romances. For player characters with low charisma who do not have even the slightest hope of romancing one of his/her sexy companions an option to use the intimidation skill or the same technique used to subdue a dragon might be interesting options. The pc might essentially hold the character against their will and force them to engage in various sexual acts and forms of humiliation. Perhaps even letting all the other party members have a go as well. They would obey you not out of loyalty or some sappy puppy love, but out of stark fear for their life. They know you are dangerous. They don't doubt that you would kill them if they attempted to escape and torture them if they are captured. That would seem a lot more interesting than sappy girlish romances.

 

Please tell me you are being facetious.