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The Gods: The Idea Pile

gods Update #5

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#1
HappyHead

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My mind got ticking after listening to the bit on the gods in update #5

Here's whats been established.
-As far as life and death goes, its a sort of pseudo-reincarnation. "The people of the world accept the reality of what they have observed: that all mortal bodies contain perceptible energy bound to the individual, and that once they die, their energy will move forward in the eternal cycle that they are all a part of -- that as far as they know, they have always been a part of."
-No mortal really understands souls, but there are many differing interpretations. "What is known is that sapient souls move through an endless cycle of waking life and purgatorial slumber among the gods. Often this slumber lasts for years of "real" time, but occasionally it is brief, with a soul immediately moving on to a new life."
-There are many gods
-The gods are real
-The gods manipulate people for unknown ends
-The gods hold a monopoly on knowlege of souls
-The people do not entirely trust the gods because they seem to have some strange purpose for not wanting to reveal why things work the way they do.

------------------------------------------------------------------

ANYWAYS, I decided to make a page that esentailly produces fodder grown from whats been established. The story and its characters are still pretty early in development. Maybe something amazing will be produced here and be borrowed from. Lets try to create some intrigue for a good story.
This page is solely intended to expound on the true nature of the gods.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
MY Idea: The gods have staged a coup

-The gods are all working together to keep humanity in the dark about the nature of souls. By doing this they can continue their master plan.
-The gods started this system of reincarnation, it was not always that way. When people die, the gods snatch the soul before it can enter their realm, erase its memory and place it back in the world when it suits them.
-Their intention is to anihilate humanity by shattering the souls that become fractured. At the same time, however, the gods need to fracture the souls that resist fracturing by getting mortals to submit and commit evil, hurtful acts that cause their souls or another's soul to fracture.
-If a soul shatters, it loses the gift of free will, reducing its owner into a mindless puppet for the gods.

-The gods are doing this out of the anger that they have towards their superior, creator god, who also created the mortals, because he gave the sapient mortals the gift of free will, somthing that only the gods have.
-Lesser beings having the ability to choose freely, like the gods do, is somthing that the other gods despise because they feel that their own glory is somehow lessened because of it, they do not wish to have any aspect of themselvs shared with things that are inherrently lesser than they are.

-The creator god gave the sapient mortals free will so that they would be able to love. (You cannot love without having the ability to not love)
-This creator god wants nothing more than to save his beloved creations from the plans of the other gods, but the other gods joined forces, bound the creator god, and limited his ability to interact with the world by causing all of the mortals to forget the creator god.
-Because he is bound and all have forgotten him, the creator god can only interact in the world by trying to communicate with those who are seeking a way to end the suffering caused by the gods, through love.
-The other gods are pretty good at having such people killed by any means available.

- the gods can be defeated if enough mortals unite the power within their souls and will the bindings on the creator god to be broken.
-If he is free, the creator god can bind the other gods and restore the souls that have shattered, with the help of the mortals

-This is only one possible storyline, others should probably be available for good measure, but this is totally a path I would like to have...




Eh? I think that could be a pretty good overarching story... Or atleast one possible branch... perhaps the player could seek to overthrow the gods in other ways. Other paths having appeal by questioning whether or not the creator god can be trusted since all the other gods are kindof evil.....

WHAT IDEAS DO YOU HAVE?

Edited by HappyHead, 22 September 2012 - 08:16 PM.

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#2
eimatshya

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@OP:

An interesting premise, but it sort of limits the ability to continue with the setting. I mean, if the central conflict is the struggle to free the creator god, once he/she/it is freed, wouldn't things be returned to the their natural order where the souls of the dead are not reincarnated but instead move on to the afterlife (or whatever). Since it sounds like they're building the world around the core idea of souls, the nature of the world would change fundamentally, and it would no longer be the same setting that they spent so much energy creating. As such, the IP would really only be good for that one story arc. This is not necessarily bad, but it seems like they are trying to create a world that would last for an untold number of stories (what with the oceanic exploration, multiple continents, and diverse cultures).

Anyway, I don't really have anything of my own to contribute (at least nothing near as interesting and complex as what OP suggests). If I come up with anything, I'll post it here later.

#3
ddillon

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Food for thought: It is often the 'trickster' or 'cosmic rebel' that causes mortals to gain free will or self-awareness against the will of the creator or chief god.

The Serpent/Devil causes mortals to gain the knowledge of good and evil against the will of the Creator/Supreme God. (knowledge of good and evil = self-awareness)

Prometheus gifts fire to mortals against the will of Zeus (and frustrates Zeus' attempt to destroy humankind). (fire = self-awareness)

Enki is an interesting case in that he creates man at the request of the other gods to serve as a servant to the gods. However, he proceeds to aid man in becoming increasingly self-aware and later frustrates chief-god Enil's plans to destroy humankind.

There is a recurring mythological theme of man as little more than an animal or a slave of the gods before the trickster or cosmic rebel causes mortals to gain the capacity for self-awareness (a soul). Mainstream orthodox religion tends to reject self-awareness as a curse, perceive the trickster or cosmic rebel as a villain, and believe that the stewardship of the creator or chief god is benevolent and preferable to our current self-aware state.

To further explore the above concepts, compare Hesiod's and Aeschylus' perceptions of Prometheus (villain vs. hero). Or compare orthodox Judeo-Christian theology and tradition to the philosophy of a group such as the Temple of Set (avoid the Church of Satan as the modern iteration of that organization embodies a more-or-less dramatic atheist philosophy and is of little interest in regards to the above despite spawning the more philosophical and spiritual Temple of Set).

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Hope some of that was interesting or helpful to you in your creative endeavors. :no:

Edited by ddillon, 23 September 2012 - 01:48 AM.

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#4
Gurkog

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Knowledge allows for freedom. Ruling bodies suppress knowledge to keep people under control. Freely distributing knowledge amounts to undermining authority and empowering the individual. Self reliance diminishes the need for group participation and the guidance of a leader. Perhaps the gods wish inhabitants of that world to be their subjects, and knowing the true nature of souls might strip away the only leverage they have.

Edited by Gurkog, 23 September 2012 - 02:09 AM.

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#5
Perderabo

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I have two ideas to do with this.

Firstly what if it is belief which created the gods and gives them their power? In that case the gods jealousy of power and perhaps even survival would depend on keeping humanity in the dark in regards to the truth about them and souls as who knows what would happen if people realized the gods were their creations and only have any power at all because of their beliefs.

secondly i have noticed alot of parallels between what we have learned about the souls and gods so far with Buddhism . Now in Buddhism the gods are not true gods as we understand the term. They are merely powerful supernatural beings with souls that are identical to any one else but have simply reincarnated this cycle as a god. The gods have all the same flaws as humans, they are still stuck in the cycle of reincarnation and will die one day. plus gods can be reincarnated as a human and conversely humans can be reincarnated as a god. Again this provides a plausible reason why the gods would act the way they do and would not want people to know the truth about souls. I mean why worship the gods when you know you can become one yourself?

#6
Rostere

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secondly i have noticed alot of parallels between what we have learned about the souls and gods so far with Buddhism . Now in Buddhism the gods are not true gods as we understand the term. They are merely powerful supernatural beings with souls that are identical to any one else but have simply reincarnated this cycle as a god. The gods have all the same flaws as humans, they are still stuck in the cycle of reincarnation and will die one day. plus gods can be reincarnated as a human and conversely humans can be reincarnated as a god. Again this provides a plausible reason why the gods would act the way they do and would not want people to know the truth about souls. I mean why worship the gods when you know you can become one yourself?

This is what I think as well. Consequently, I am waiting for a NPC who is an "awakened soul" from a mighty warrior reincarnated in the form of a cow.

Edited by Rostere, 23 September 2012 - 05:00 AM.


#7
septembervirgin

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If there were creator gods, perhaps they weren't immortal and most certainly no longer in their heyday as a culture. They might have been conquered, displaced, and are now less than populous. I'm not interested in a singular creator god concept, especially if we're funding this by Kickstarter and it's not Bill Gates's pet project at present.

#8
Canova

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i also dont like ops idea about one "true", benevolent (judeo-christian?) creator god and bunch of lesser, evil (pagan?) gods... i dont want this game to become like some sort of weird pro-christian propaganda.
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#9
Kronos

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Deithebile - Eldest world tree with acquired sentience, acquired diety status over millenia as fauna waxed and waned over the course of time.

Diethebile is a peculiar diety in a sense that it is bound by its gargantuan fixed physical self and has a purpose that is barely know. What is know is that the area surrounding the mighty tree is densely vegetated and contains the treetop citadel of Bile Crannog.

Diethebile has on occasion communicated with certain druids and rangers - the first know occurence of this was during 'the awakening'; which is the first recorded instance of sentience. During this time Bile Crannog was founded, and the various principals on which the town still bases itself were established. Some scholars speculate that the young god required a symbiotic relationship with the sentient races in order to ensure its security as it is on one hand one of the most vulnerable of dieties as it can simply be razed to the ground but on the other hand can potentially be one of the most powerful in that it has an incredibile loyalty from the denizens of Bile Crannog due to actually providing for them a bountiful livelihood. Some of the more sceptical scholars believe that it is Diethebile's intention to gradually spread its presence over the entire known world; although most aren't concerned about this prospect as it will surely take many more mellenia until such an outcome could occur.

Bile Crannog is a peculiar place where the doctrine is to 'live off & with the land'. People don't interfere with the vegetation; however with the intervention of Deithebile, the surrounding lands tend to 'accomodate' the increase diversity and size of the population of Bile Crannog by revealing new treetop and ground clearings to construct various buildings and by revealing new and larger pathways in the surrounding forests to accomodate increased logistics needs. Contrary to the usual trend of increased deforestation that follows in the path of a growing city, the forested lands tend to expand in size to support the increased needs of the town as in turn the influence of Deithebile slowly increases.


The town consists only of those that live in tune with nature and also has a strong economy that exports the famed and scarce sap that comes from Deithebile - the sap is famed for it's healing properties which is a very rare commodity in the world and fetches astronomical prices. It is anticipated that Bile Crannog will eventually swell to this size of a city. One of the stranger customs of the land is to 'bury' the recently deceased of the city by dropping them into a mighty tree hollow that exists in Diethebile, it is veiwed that by doing this the spirit of the deceased has more likelyhood of making there way back to Diethebelle in the next life, some wonder as to what the real implications of this tradition might actually be.

Please like this idea, it came to me and I think it could be really cool and a concept around this could be interesting in terms of potential future conflicts as well as just a really neat environment.
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#10
jezz555

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i also dont like ops idea about one "true", benevolent (judeo-christian?) creator god and bunch of lesser, evil (pagan?) gods... i dont want this game to become like some sort of weird pro-christian propaganda.


To be fair you could also apply this to Zeus or Odin and the other gods of their cultures, as some have already observed there seems to be a similarity to the greek pantheon already beginning to assert itself.

But what I'm getting from what has been released so far is that gods seem to be another species entirely with a semi-symbiotic or even parasitic relationship with humanity. The inclusion of the godlike race, seems to suggest this, so I don't think they are really gods in the classical sense, which is kind of kind of cool.
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#11
maggotheart

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Here's my idea:

The gods are entities that are composed of the souls of mortal beings, like a mosaic. Souls with a similar philosophical viewpoint pool together to create a god, with the personality traits of all those mortals melded together to create a single entity.

Some mortals are born 'new/pure', in that their souls are not drawn from an existing divine entity, but end up attaching themselves to one after death through their actions in life. Others may be born with souls that have lived before and already attached themselves to a god-entity. Those souls are drawn away from the mass that creates the individual god and allows the god a means to continue to learn and grow while also influencing the mortal world.

The mortal world is a battleground between all the different gods. Each cannot understand the other, views them as a threat and seeks to be the one and only god. They do this by attempting to destroy mortals who have old souls drawn from their enemies, while converting those with pure souls to their way of thinking. Those with more followers become greater and more powerful with more opportunities to influence the mortal world.

There is some mechanism in the world whereby a persons soul can be totally and utterly annihilated, never to become one with a god or able to return to the mass. Old souls are targeted for this destruction by agents of opposing gods as a means of weakening their opponents.

One faction seeks to end the war of the gods by seeking a greater understanding of the philosophical divides that created them and promoting peace and brotherhood among mortals. A mortal may, through increased understanding and self reflection, detach themselves from a god and again become 'pure', which diminishes that gods power, with the ultimate goal of making everyone pure and eliminating the gods for good. This group also promotes science and investigation into the natural world. The gods hate this faction and work to stop them at any cost.

#12
SophosTheWise

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I'd love the concept of belief that "creates" gods, like in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather and the O God of Hangovers! :D
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#13
necromate

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I like the idea of OP, but only as a background info, saving the world is sooooo overused, o hell I guess I'm off to save the world AGAIN. Let's live in a world instead that has been saved xd. Altough I would not mind sort of accidentally saving the world :) minding my own business and then, storytwist, you saved X and Y.

Kronos' idea would present a very good counterpart to the industrial deforestation. Reminds me of Kuldahar. ( and etc, the tree of life topos is as old as the human race ) The "reaperlike" mind control on where to and how to build houses and the funerals are a very nice twists :D

I'll try to think up something myself later :)

#14
SophosTheWise

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I wonder about the concept of saints, since I think they're a lot more interesting than Gods usually. Most of the time Gods just stand for certain, very general things, while Saints exist for anything ridiculous :D
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#15
Mandragore

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I think OP's idea is a bit convoluted. If the gods wanted to off humanity why not just wipe us out? They are gods after all. If the "creator god" is a good guy why doesn't he put a stop to the plot? How could he be unaware of the plot (if that's what your suggesting) given that it involves a dramatic change in itinerary of every mortal soul?

Kinda weak IMO.

#16
Darth InSidious

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My own idea is that the gods are mysterious, unkown, unknowable, fickle, distant and utterly unpredictable. Their behaviour, their agendas, their way of thinking, their origins are all completely unknown, and can only be grasped at by allegory and tales which point toward the truth without ever encompassing it. They are infinitely above humanity (unless they aren't), and they don't deign to explain themselves to humanity, or to interact with men except when and if it pleases them. How many there are, whether they are all different or merely aspects of one another, their meaning... these are all very good questions, and each has many, many contradictory answers - which might all be true, or all be false, for all we know.

Edited by Darth InSidious, 28 November 2012 - 06:49 PM.


#17
Osvir

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WARNING WARNING! Berserk is very disturbing. Just saying... really... I also dare you to tell me that anime and manga is bad *shakes fist* I dare ya! :p oh not really, here's a hug :)
Start with this one:
http://www.youtube.c...znK1mLQ#t=1061s

Then this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvybffkW69o

If this is a no-fly post (too mature/disturbing) then I'm sorry.

EDIT: The "Event" *shudders* this is also the episode that made me start reading and watching Berserk (bought the entire boxset, still working on the Manga lol, the Manga is one of the oldest running. Since 1980 something). Tried to watch it and even read it and I kind of said "Blegh!" every time. Saw this episode on TV and wondered what it was, laughed when I saw during commercial the Berserk logo.

This is one of the best stories ever out there period for so many reasons and you wouldn't understand it unless you engaged yourself and watched it. It's about 25 episodes (20 minutes each).

Edited by Osvir, 28 November 2012 - 09:03 PM.

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#18
Orogun01

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Read the Manga :bat:
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#19
jezz555

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EDIT: The "Event" *shudders* this is also the episode that made me start reading and watching Berserk (bought the entire boxset, still working on the Manga lol, the Manga is one of the oldest running. Since 1980 something). Tried to watch it and even read it and I kind of said "Blegh!" every time. Saw this episode on TV and wondered what it was, laughed when I saw during commercial the Berserk logo.

This is one of the best stories ever out there period for so many reasons and you wouldn't understand it unless you engaged yourself and watched it. It's about 25 episodes (20 minutes each).


I couldn't tell what the hell was going in this clip, was this meant to have something to do with the thread? I had never seen this anime before but it didn't really change my opinion of anime as a whole to be honest. no offense but it just seems to me like your typical big guy with scars and huge sword saves the world with his effeminate side kicks deal, pretty status quo from what I saw. The naked chick was pretty shwing though

Edited by jezz555, 28 November 2012 - 10:45 PM.

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#20
Osvir

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^No comment, you have no idea. It is related to the thread because it's an Idea Pile of Gods and these anime episodes presents 4 Gods and an Ascension of 1 God, hence related.

Also no offense taken but I can't value your thoughts on Berserk as credible, unfortunately, as you haven't seen the entire show. And that's that, if you would watch it all I'd take your opinion more seriously :)

Edited by Osvir, 28 November 2012 - 11:15 PM.






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