Norway appoints Muslim woman Minister of Culture

[pmp10]

History shows that these cultural issues are simply a matter of time. In a few generations, these differing cultures will adapt to one another. History also rarely reflects well on those who discriminate.

History shows no such thing.

For every group and culture that has assimilated willingly you can point out another that was forced to do so.

Moreover some quite ancient minorities remain on the fringes of their respective societies to this very day.

Whether things will change in modern world of global trade and mass-media is anyones guess.

[obyknven]

What he said.

 

Except I don't think multiculturalism as seen in Europe was conceived as an idealistic project. Its a result of the failure (or overt success, depending on your point of view) of the capitalist system whose culture of hedonism left Europeans without the adequate birth rates to cover their aging work force.

The German green party program (which I had to write a piece on) pretty openly states that the immigrants are necessary and if you read between the lines it turns out that multiculturalism (as seen in our time) is a concession that had to be given for them (immigrants) to be better integrated into the political and cultural system. There are other reasons as well, certain countries were more open to certain immigration as a way to preserve influence in their ex colonial states.

 

Its a weak and short sighted policy because it tries to solve a problem, not by addressing the underlying cause (the capitalist system of production and its ideology of hedonism) but in typical businesslike fashion it looks for the quickest and cheapest solution to patch up the holes and pronounce the end product, a leaky ship, the new Titanic of freedom and multiculturalism.

 

A system where a single child costs such obscene amounts of money to rear and educate, a system that lets its basic unit (the family) be dissolved and crumble while at the same time accepting that the only solution is to import "other people's children" wholesale can only be pronounced a failure in the long run.

 

lol. And I suppose you also think that Breivik was just fighting the good fight, albeit in a misguided manner.

 

Oh, and FYI: there is nothing wrong with hedonism. Enjoying oneself isn't modern society's problem. Enjoying oneself without giving a damn about others is society's problem - and in that regard the root of the problem does indeed lie partly at insufficiently regulated capitalism. But hedonism ain't the cause here buddy. Sex ain't the reason society is in trouble. Drugs are not the reason society is in trouble. Increasing acceptance of the fact that two men can love each other as much as a man and a woman is not the reason that society is in trouble. And you know what? Muslims aren't even the reason society is in trouble.

 

The reason happens to be far less bigoted, and far more logical: people being greedy is the cause of society's problems. Sound like hedonism? It's not. For example: I can **** my girlfriend all day if I want to. It's completely hedonistic. But it doesn't cost anybody anything. (And I'm sorry to break it to you, but yes this is true of two men ****ing as well.)

 

He Who Has A Great Nose Thinks Everybody Is Speaking Of It.

 

You COMPLETELY miss the point of Hedonism

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q31WDHfrIvo

[Hurlshort]

History shows that these cultural issues are simply a matter of time. In a few generations, these differing cultures will adapt to one another. History also rarely reflects well on those who discriminate.

History shows no such thing.

For every group and culture that has assimilated willingly you can point out another that was forced to do so.

Moreover some quite ancient minorities remain on the fringes of their respective societies to this very day.

Whether things will change in modern world of global trade and mass-media is anyones guess.

 

I'm not talking about assimilation. And ideal society is one in which cultural diversity is simply accepted with little conflict. They exist all over the world. It takes generations, it can be bloody, there can be terrible crimes committed on both sides, but eventually coexistence will win out. Do protestants and catholics still fight across Europe? Is the US Government still forcing American Indians onto reservations? Are sikhs, hindus, and muslims still fighting across India? At the end of the day, groups that use violence to deal with diversity (i.e. the Inquisition and the US Government) look terrible.

[213374U]

I'm not talking about assimilation. And ideal society is one in which cultural diversity is simply accepted with little conflict. They exist all over the world. It takes generations, it can be bloody, there can be terrible crimes committed on both sides, but eventually coexistence will win out. Do protestants and catholics still fight across Europe? Is the US Government still forcing American Indians onto reservations? Are sikhs, hindus, and muslims still fighting across India? At the end of the day, groups that use violence to deal with diversity (i.e. the Inquisition and the US Government) look terrible.

Oh crap. I don't even know where to start. Let's see... Catholics and Protestants no longer fight across Europe because after centuries of warfare and millions of dead we have finally figured that it's not such a good idea to define ourselves as Catholic/Protestant and make a fuss over that. Eventually we just decided to drop the whole thing, which actually shows how certain ideas can never coexist.

 

And no, India isn't a model either. And read up on the Naxalites, too. Those guys sure know how to have fun. Not exactly a sign of a well-adjusted and peaceful society. Oh, and don't forget the constant reports of discrimination against the Sikhs.

 

And finally, the icing on the cake. I'm honestly flabbergasted that you'd use the US as an example. The US gov't is the perfect model of cultural assimilation, as the MO to be "crush everyone, impose economic slavery on the remains, and build a nice McD's and a parking lot afterwards". If you think that only partially exterminating the original owners of the land and confining them to "reservations" afterwards is an example of successful cultural coexistence... there's not much to say, really.

 

Yeah...

 

 

I can **** my girlfriend all day if I want to.

And instead you're posting here? FAIL.

[Malcador]

Well Catholics and Protestants still get into it in Scotland

[213374U]

You mean Ireland don't you? Scotland... what?

[Hurlshort]

Catholics and Protestants no longer fight across Europe because after centuries of warfare and millions of dead we have finally figured that it's not such a good idea to define ourselves as Catholic/Protestant and make a fuss over that. Eventually we just decided to drop the whole thing, which actually shows how certain ideas can never coexist.

 

That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying there are no longer any protestants and catholics in Europe?

 

Also you don't seem to have a real concept of what the US looks like or how multicultural communities work. The American Indian Nations have also been winning court case after court case against the US for reparations and rights, so you can read up on that if you'd like to learn how they are doing.

 

Is India a perfect example? Of course not, this isn't something that happens quickly, as I've stated. England is a great example, there are still tensions between Ireland and England and even Scotland, but it isn't exactly warfare. Their unique cultures are still predominantly accepted as they are. Do you have a lot of Saxons versus Briton problems anymore? Assimilation doesn't work, accepting diversity does.

[HoonDing]

He probably means Rangers-Celtic.

[213374U]

Catholics and Protestants no longer fight across Europe because after centuries of warfare and millions of dead we have finally figured that it's not such a good idea to define ourselves as Catholic/Protestant and make a fuss over that. Eventually we just decided to drop the whole thing, which actually shows how certain ideas can never coexist.

 

That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying there are no longer any protestants and catholics in Europe?

 

Also you don't seem to have a real concept of what the US looks like or how multicultural communities work. The American Indian Nations have also been winning court case after court case against the US for reparations and rights, so you can read up on that if you'd like to learn how they are doing.

 

Is India a perfect example? Of course not, this isn't something that happens quickly, as I've stated. England is a great example, there are still tensions between Ireland and England and even Scotland, but it isn't exactly warfare. Their unique cultures are still predominantly accepted as they are. Do you have a lot of Saxons versus Briton problems anymore? Assimilation doesn't work, accepting diversity does.

Lol no. Not even close.

 

I'm saying people in Europe don't consider being Protestant or Catholic a defining trait anymore. People in Europe have -again, after centuries of near-constant war, a fact you conveniently forget- developed a common cultural framework inspired by the ideas of people like Locke, Voltaire, etc. And that didn't exactly come without bloodshed either. So, to sum up, a cultural paradigm was overthrown by means of force. This is, not peacefully.

 

India, either there's peaceful coexistence and mutual acceptance between the different ethnic groups, or there isn't. And presently, there isn't. I just showed clearly that the random example you produced actually works against your argument. Take it like a man and admit it. Dismissing violent religious and ethnic tensions as "not really that violent" in the face of episodes of ethnic cleansing (did you even bother reading the link?) or suggesting that "it'll get better with time" where history actually suggests the opposite is not just disingenuous, it's insulting.

 

And yeah, throwing some money at the Indian "nations" clearly solves everything. Who cares, you can always print more. How about you give them back their land? Didn't think so.

[Hurlshort]

Again you seem to be fairly ignorant about the current land prospects and value of Native American tribes. There is still a lot of economic development to be done, but in the last 20 years they have come a long way.

 

Also you seem pretty willing to speak for protestants and catholics about how they identify themselves. I've never met a Catholic that didn't consider their religion a defining trait. And yes, that came at the cost of bloodshed, but humanity as a whole has progressed quite a bit since the Reformation, so we should all hope that future transitions will not be as painful.

 

India itself is a perfect example because it is incredibly diverse and incredibly complicated. It has a religiously tolerant constitution and a government that does what it can to keep peace. It has a long way to go, there are quite a few extremist groups working against that peace, but it continues to press forward. And keep your fingers crossed, but it has actually been a couple years since there have been any major riots. Their relationship with Pakistan has improved. Progress is being made.

[Drowsy Emperor]

If you look at history new divisions are made practically at the same rate that others become obsolete. There is no reason to believe that that will change - its just a part of human nature.

[213374U]

Again you seem to be fairly ignorant about the current land prospects and value of Native American tribes. There is still a lot of economic development to be done, but in the last 20 years they have come a long way.

You, of all people are accusing me of ignorance? Quick, call an ambulance, I stabbed myself with the irony!

 

 

Also you seem pretty willing to speak for protestants and catholics about how they identify themselves. I've never met a Catholic that didn't consider their religion a defining trait. And yes, that came at the cost of bloodshed, but humanity as a whole has progressed quite a bit since the Reformation, so we should all hope that future transitions will not be as painful.

United Statian Catholics, perhaps. Please, don't ridicule yourself trying to explain an European how Europeans feel. I live in Spain, bro. It only gets more Catholic than that in some regions of Italy. I know what I'm talking about. You, don't. Old people may feel Catholic, but even for them that takes a back seat to feeling Western any day of the week, except for sundays, maybe.

 

 

India itself is a perfect example because it is incredibly diverse and incredibly complicated. It has a religiously tolerant constitution and a government that does what it can to keep peace. It has a long way to go, there are quite a few extremist groups working against that peace, but it continues to press forward. And keep your fingers crossed, but it has actually been a couple years since there have been any major riots. Their relationship with Pakistan has improved. Progress is being made.

India is a perfect example of the eternal failure of clashing cultures finding an enduring, stable, peaceful coexistance based on egalitarianism. Remember, American Indian-style "integration" is not real multiculturalism. But hey, the government does what it can to keep the lower castes down, you got that right, at least.

 

[Hurlshort]

If you look at history new divisions are made practically at the same rate that others become obsolete. There is no reason to believe that that will change - its just a part of human nature.

 

You guys really have a negative view on the world, it is incredibly unhealthy. It is also terribly inaccurate, your life is much better than it was at any other point in history. Do you really think humanity is the same as it was 2000 year ago? 1000 years ago? 100 years ago?

 

Numbers man, cynicism and negativity does not equal intelligence.

[Malcador]

When it comes to seeing "us" and "them, I think it's largely the same. Just that the definitions change.

[213374U]

If you look at history new divisions are made practically at the same rate that others become obsolete. There is no reason to believe that that will change - its just a part of human nature.

 

You guys really have a negative view on the world, it is incredibly unhealthy. It is also terribly inaccurate, your life is much better than it was at any other point in history. Do you really think humanity is the same as it was 2000 year ago? 1000 years ago? 100 years ago?

 

Numbers man, cynicism and negativity does not equal intelligence.

Negative how? We are just discussing facts. Facts are neither negative nor positive. Just because I don't believe in pinko lefty coombayah multiculturalism and chocolate-paved streets doesn't mean I'm a pessimist. Humanity has progressed -quite unevenly, too- but humans are largely the same. Been to Pompeii?

 

And I never said I was particularly intelligent, regardless of how cynical I may be. We all have our vices.

[Drowsy Emperor]

If you look at history new divisions are made practically at the same rate that others become obsolete. There is no reason to believe that that will change - its just a part of human nature.

 

You guys really have a negative view on the world, it is incredibly unhealthy. It is also terribly inaccurate, your life is much better than it was at any other point in history. Do you really think humanity is the same as it was 2000 year ago? 1000 years ago? 100 years ago?

 

Numbers man, cynicism and negativity does not equal intelligence.

 

I don't see that as necessarily negative, people are what they are and that's neither good nor bad. But I don't believe any scholar of history would agree there is real progress in the human psyche. Technological progress, yes, obviously - which has allowed some to live better. The greater masses of humanity pretty much live as they have lived for ages.

[Hurlshort]

Look, human nature by definition may be unchanging, but humanity as a whole has progressed tremendously. I'm not simply talking about technology, although anything that improves quality of life can help improve a society. Humanity improves through education and societal expectations. If you grow up in a society where tolerance is encouraged and expected, then the majority of people will be tolerant. If you grow up in a society where multiculturalism and diversity are celebrated, then the majority of people will be accepting.

 

This isn't some utopian dream either, it is the way many communities function on a daily basis. It is difficult to effectively educate everyone, that is why I said you will see many generations pass before a community will fully change.

 

John Locke was mentioned earlier, but I lean more towards Rousseau myself:

 

“We are born weak, we need strength; helpless, we need aid; foolish, we need reason. All that we lack at birth, all that we need when we come to man's estate, is the gift of education.”

[Zoraptor]

I think we'll get a good idea of how much religion and a bunch of -isms really matter in modern western society as the economic stuff continues to unravel. Last time there were really big economic upheavals in europe, well within the last century, we got a whole bunch of extremely unpleasant stuff based on/ using as an excuse religion and isms. In such times anyone demonstrably different is at risk, and always has been. At present a lot of such concerns are ratcheted down by the warm enveloping embrace of the western lifestyle- it's difficult to be Angry when you're comfortable, own iDevices, go out for meals and entertainment several times a week and have everything around you designed to reinforce your sense of superiority. Revolution is for arab asteriskholes, not nice western places that have already evolved to the apex of civilisation, basically, but as soon as you have enough people questioning whether the west really is the apex of civilisation we'll learn whether things have changed fundamentally or it's the same as always just with a nice veneer over the top.

 

Personally, and not without regret, I'm completely in the latter camp. As soon as the comfort goes the basic human tenets of wanting to blame/ punish/ take stuff off Other People will reassert itself in a lot of places.

[Hurlshort]

That's pretty bleak.

[HoonDing]

Personally, and not without regret, I'm completely in the latter camp. As soon as the comfort goes the basic human tenets of wanting to blame/ punish/ take stuff off Other People will reassert itself in a lot of places.

And the current situation in Greece shows you're correct. Rest of Europe will follow suit.

[Zoraptor]

That's pretty bleak.

I'd be absolutely ecstatic to be wrong. Unfortunately for this case we evolve per Darwin, not Lamarck.

[obyknven]

That's pretty funny. The Decline of the West etc.

http://en.wikipedia....ine_of_the_West

 

[HoonDing]

Stay classy, Poland.

[pmp10]

I think we'll get a good idea of how much religion and a bunch of -isms really matter in modern western society as the economic stuff continues to unravel. Last time there were really big economic upheavals in europe, well within the last century, we got a whole bunch of extremely unpleasant stuff based on/ using as an excuse religion and isms.

Could you elaborate?

Which economic upheaval did you have in mind?

[Zoraptor]

Oh you know, the usual stuff. Euro crisis, debt burdens, unemployment, quantitative easing; dogmatic ideological responses propping up banks that were so economically cretinous to believe that house prices could never fall etc.

 

Fundamentally, the west doesn't really make much stuff any more- the few places which do like Germany are doing rather better- and has relied on financial services and housing for economic growth while buying fripperies on credit. That's unsustainable and was always going to result in a violent correction at some point. High unemployment and slashed benefits result in lots of poor, bored and angry people which is not exactly a great formula for stability and tolerance.