Spook Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 You know, playing a premade character isn't always bad. Nope, it is not ALWAYS bad, just must of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diogo Ribeiro Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 You know, playing a premade character isn't always bad. Nope, it is not ALWAYS bad, just must of the time. Quite true, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 I do prefer playing my own character, so you can really get into the role part of the RPG. Pre-made characters can be good, but i much prefer to create my own. The classes you are are meant to represent how you've lived your life aswell. If you are a soldier or a fighter you will have spent a lot of time killing people, if you are a theif you will have stolen a lot from people...stuff like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 No, they are NOT. Classes represent skill, a scoundrel can easly be a criminal, a smuggler or a bounty hunter, same goes with the other core classes (even the noble) since your background can be hundred of diferent things, even the non heroic classes. That is the error people continue to make, a solider can be either part of the republic, a mercenary or a dualist ... why people continue to make such error is beyond me, expecialy since the d20 system creators said exactly what I just said ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvius the Mad Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 KotOR could have solved most of this problem by allowing advancement in your original class after going to Dantooine. If you liked being a Soldier, you could keep being a Soldier and let your force sensitivity stagnate. But we didn't get that option. KotOR2 could easily keep exactly the same exiled Jedi storyline and just allow more diverse character advancement. Let us take non-Jedi classes, even at the start. God used to be my co-pilot, but then we crashed in the Andes and I had to eat him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 No, they are NOT. Classes represent skill, a scoundrel can easly be a criminal, a smuggler or a bounty hunter, same goes with the other core classes (even the noble) since your background can be hundred of diferent things, even the non heroic classes. That is the error people continue to make, a solider can be either part of the republic, a mercenary or a dualist ... why people continue to make such error is beyond me, expecialy since the d20 system creators said exactly what I just said ... I dubt that a soldier got his skill with weapons from selling flowers. He lives by his weapon skills or he would be another profession like scout. He would definitly not reach that skill in weapon from repairing spaceships or bandageing people. In short a soldier live with skill of arms, no matter if he is soldier, mercenary, dualist or legbraker for a hutt. Each profession gives your earlier education and choice of type of profession. Even if the way you earn your living might be a bit different then the average member of your profession, you will be bound by its general way of traing. You might on the otherhand have very different reason to why you started your path of profession, so one soldier is therefor not the same as next even if they are walking fighting machines (unless they left after recieving the traing and started to sell flowers, while remaining lvl 1 ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 the real fun part of this thread is recognizing those folks who was complaining 'bout bis plan to make super mutants and ghouls player character race options for fo3, but is now complaining that kotor/kotor2 protagonist must be human. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC9 Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 KotOR could have solved most of this problem by allowing advancement in your original class after going to Dantooine. If you liked being a Soldier, you could keep being a Soldier and let your force sensitivity stagnate. But we didn't get that option. That would have also cured the lack of difficulty, I think. It doesn't seem that big a problem from a gameplay standpoint. The big issue is that you'd have to change a lot of dialog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 is a problem from gameplay standpoint... 'cause the non-jedi classes ain't anywhere near as powerful as the jedi. would have had many complaints. 'course, d20 star wars is partly to blame. folks howl that blasters is nerfed... but truth is that jedi lightsabre wielders is nerfed much more by comparison. 15 levels of jedi class(seems to be the average numbers of jedi levels taken by players,) means that you is doing something like 5d8 hp of damage with a lightsabre in the d20 system... which is nuts. blasters is nerfed in kotor so that at start of game you not die in every early battle 'gainst a blaster wielding foe. lightsabres was nerfed in kotor 'cause they is stupid powerful in the hands of a jedi... but even so, with force powers being reserved for jedi, many gameplay changes would have to be made. actually, we was pretty impressed with much of the d20 REVISED star wars rules.(never saw the original, but we hear they was offal/awful.) with jedi powers being skills as 'posed to powers as in kotor, it takes only a few adjustments to be making pnp jedi classes less munchkin. also results in all the abilities scores actually being useful... min/max point-buy is much less likely gonna result with legions of 8 int jedi walking 'round. as for story... gotta change lots of stuff on dantooine, and some dialogues on a few other planets... but you not determine difficulty of writing story by asking what changes would have to be made looking back on a finished story arc. would not have been much work to deal with story if game had been designed from start to allow you freedom of choice with the classes. basic plot changes very little. the changes to preserve gameplay balance would seem to have been much more difficult for a developer than story elements. however, other than a relatively small number of role-play fanatics, how many players would honestly have NOT chosen a jedi class their first time through kotor or any other star wars game? Gromnir woulda' enjoyed playing such a character at some point, and so would many obsidian posters... but it is hardly an option that a significant number of players is gonna use... and the number of first time players who made use of such an option would be infinitesimal. wasted resources. bio has, over the years, designed games to appeal to the Average Gamer. this seems to result in games that is widely popular and commercially successful "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 the real fun part of this thread is recognizing those folks who was complaining 'bout bis plan to make super mutants and ghouls player character race options for fo3, but is now complaining that kotor/kotor2 protagonist must be human. HA! Good Fun! Big difference, 1) Ghouls and mutants are'nt races. Ghouls are set to be extinct and die, while SM's are created in a vat. In Star Wars there are actually plenty of species that are indigenous to their own home planet. FO just has humans as races. Heck to make SM's, the master of mutants needed humans, so in reality SM's are nothing more then modified humans. Same argument for ghouls. Not to mention they made up probably less then 0.01% of the existing population (thats small). 2) D20 is a class based system. And lets not pretend that races do in fact predispose you to a particular class. Hence races in a D20 Star Wars fits because they min/max you're character, and we all love munchkinism, or martyrism whatever you're preference maybe. While SPECIAL is a classless system and as LH showed the races ended up creating classes, a job previously created left to traits and tagging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 thanks for responding... please continue as you seem to be proving our unstated point quite nicely. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 is a problem from gameplay standpoint... 'cause the non-jedi classes ain't anywhere near as powerful as the jedi. would have had many complaints. 'course, d20 star wars is partly to blame. folks howl that blasters is nerfed... but truth is that jedi lightsabre wielders is nerfed much more by comparison. 15 levels of jedi class(seems to be the average numbers of jedi levels taken by players,) means that you is doing something like 5d8 hp of damage with a lightsabre in the d20 system... which is nuts. blasters is nerfed in kotor so that at start of game you not die in every early battle 'gainst a blaster wielding foe. lightsabres was nerfed in kotor 'cause they is stupid powerful in the hands of a jedi... but even so, with force powers being reserved for jedi, many gameplay changes would have to be made. This is absolutely the only reason I suggested it. Mainly because blaster are indeed nerfed, but no where near as nerfed as is the Jedi. The light sabre is capable of next to nothing, that it is capable of in literature and movies. Hence, why the need to play a jedi, if I am going to have to lock pick skill anyway, since I just can't use my light sabre to cut down the door? however, other than a relatively small number of role-play fanatics, how many players would honestly have NOT chosen a jedi class their first time through kotor or any other star wars game? Gromnir woulda' enjoyed playing such a character at some point, and so would many obsidian posters... but it is hardly an option that a significant number of players is gonna use... and the number of first time players who made use of such an option would be infinitesimal. wasted resources. Well keep in mind that you don't play a Jedi in the beginning, and at some point you are forced to STOP multiclassing with non-jedi classes and forced to only pick jedi classes. I would have liked an approach, which offered more freedom and allowed you choose from the six classes in the beginning. Those that chose from Jedi classes would have probably been hindered during progression on Taris, because to be frank, it was the only planet done with the ability to roleplay a characters ability. I guess that answers my question about why all the planets after Taris were lackluster. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 thanks for responding... please continue as you seem to be proving our unstated point quite nicely. HA! Good Fun! Uh, I edited the post that you quoted to. You weren't suppose to look so fast. My computer is acting like a 286, on a 2000~ kbps modem, so there should be plenty of typos. Sorry if the point is completely obliterated in typos and unchecked english. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 am rarely bothered by grammar or typos... typos and grammar is only an issue if you becomes incomprehensible, and we thinks we understood you well enough. no need to apologize (to Gromnir of all folks,) 'bout grammar and typos. is just that your points (1 and 2) seem largely illusory and contradictory to points made earlier in this thread by you and others.... but please, continue to explain how asking for more race options in kotor and kotor 2 is fundamentally different than asking for such a thing for fo3... Gromnir is fascinated... no doubt the obsidian developers, many of whom worked on fo3, is also curious. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillLife Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 am rarely bothered by grammar or typos... typos and grammar is only an issue if you becomes incomprehensible, and we thinks we understood you well enough. no need to apologize (to Gromnir of all folks,) 'bout grammar and typos. is just that your points (1 and 2) seem largely illusory and contradictory to points made earlier in this thread by you and others.... but please, continue to explain how asking for more race options in kotor and kotor 2 is fundamentally different than asking for such a thing for fo3... Gromnir is fascinated... no doubt the obsidian developers, many of whom worked on fo3, is also curious. HA! Good Fun! I was one of the people all for multiple races options in Fallout 3. And I'd like to see them in the next KotOR too. Variety is the spice of life, and in my experience, a wider range of options usually make for a richer game. I do remember the complaints that playable supermutants and ghouls would take focus away from the "more important aspects" that the devleopers could've been working on in Fallout 3 though. Same silly excuses people have been making in this thread concerning KotOR 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Allow me to point a few things. Fallout universe is human dominated, SM and Ghouls are humans, in Fallout 2 being a human was only required because of the Vault 13 connection. Now lets look at Star Wars, in this storyline we start as a Jedi (or not, I really dont know) and being a Jedi is not restricted to humans, other races can and usually are force users. In SWKotOR they had the "Revan" aspect and if we selected Twi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leombruno Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 I do remember the complaints that playable supermutants and ghouls would take focus away from the "more important aspects" that the devleopers could've been working on in Fallout 3 though. Same silly excuses people have been making in this thread concerning KotOR 2. You apparently forgot the silly cost vs reward excuse JE was making when he said the feature was decided against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 "Fallout universe is human dominated, SM and Ghouls are humans, in Fallout 2 being a human was only required because of the Vault 13 connection." uh... thanks, but how is any of those observations relevant to why or why not super mutants or ghouls shoulda' or coulda' been playable races in fo3? "In SWKotOR they had the "Revan" aspect and if we selected Twi "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted May 1, 2004 Author Share Posted May 1, 2004 To be quite frank Gromnir, there was no reason for why SM's, or Ghouls should have even been in FO2. FO1 had the ghouls pretty much wiped out, and the same goes for the SM's. So why put them in FO2? Its quite simple really, because that it was the Mad Max fans wanted. The same goes for the Death Claw party member, and the car. Of the 100's of races in the Star Wars universe, in which at least 5, or 6 could have been intergrated as playable races. Unlike FO2 and FO3, you don't have to make up a contrived story of why they are even in the game, much less why they are playable characters. Honestly, I think a better analogy, would be that in BG2 we should have been allowed to play lichs and zombies because that is what SM's and Ghouls were akin to in Fallout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 can't have it both ways chum... at one point you is saying that ghouls and supermutants is just altered humans anyway... and at same time you is suggesting that they is so exotic as to be unplayable. *shrug* you might not like what fo2 did, but that game seemed to show us that ghouls and supermutants was quite plausible as pc characters in the fo universe... in fact, fo:t actually made those races playable as part of your squad. btw, d&d zombies is mindless "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 I left Interplay forums long ago Grommir, my knowledge of FO3 is very limited. No reason why not having ghouls and SM in Fallout 3, heck FO:T had then (not in character generation however) and even a droid with their own unique perks. And as for SWKotOR ... well its that or they were too damn lazy to implement then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 I thought the cost to benefit ratio makes a lot of sense. I'm not dead set against all races, but I'm not angry we can only play humans right now. The fact is, any change in the variables will have a significant impact on the outcome. For that reason alone, we might as well speak in terms of cost v. benefit as anything else. Now, how many races should we see. It's become a conversation centered on an either/or model. Why not narrow it down to a question of which races should be playable? For the record, I think including wookies as playable sounds just plain dumb. B) Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 A few, Twil lek and some would work well and not even need voice overs ... problem is the more exotic ones, expecialy if there is a romance option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Just for a moment try to imagine playing one of the "two-headed" guys. Can't remember the name of their race though. Would one of those take up two npc slots in your party ? Are there sith wookies ? If not, not interested. Being a Jawa ? Why not What does an Ithidorian (spelling?) look like under the armour ? Are they human ? See no reason why most of the humanoid characters "couldn't" be playable, if the story itself doesn't evolve around the players past. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Situationist Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Being a Jawa ? Why not Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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