[Merged] Gods save us another romance thread

[Amentep]

Unlike romances fighting/killing can be properly implemented in a game. Without some kind of advanced technology that we don't yet have sex cannot be. And romance cannot really be done properly either.

 

Perhaps I'm missing your point here, but fighting/killing in a game and romance/sex in a game either happen or they don't happen in the game - just like in fiction, television or movie. I'm not sure what kind of "advanced technology" would be needed...unless you're trying to argue that people who want romance/sex in a game to actually be able to romance/have sex with characters in the game, in which case your analogy to fighting/killing isn't analogous as the player isn't actually able to fight/kill characters in the game as it stands now either. Or perhaps I misunderstand?

 

Romance is something that people actually like to do in the real world.

 

And its something they like to read about, if the sales of 50 Shades of Grey is anything to go by. And to watch, if the fact the porno business is still around.

 

I can list plenty examples of fun games where the mechanic is solely about killing people. Can you list a single example of a fun game that is solely about romancing and having sex with game characters?

 

Not really the point I think; I gather there is noone is asking for Project Eternity to be a game solely about romancing and having sex (anymore than they are asking that it solely be about killing people, or setting traps, or representing Tolkein's version of elves and dwarves (all topics that have come up here).

[Merin]

The forum has spoken. Over 70% of us are happy to sacrifice romances. In my case I'd like to sacrifice them on a stone altar in the underground temple of a multi-tentacled god of evil madness, with an elaborately ornate but cruelly-spiked mace.

 

Not precisely. I am one who voted yes on all three, but that doesn't equate to me not wanting romance in the game. It means I don't want the game, overall, to suffer just for the sake of romance being included.

 

By that I mean that if Obsidian's view for Project Eternity includes no romances, and they have character interactions and plot points and such planned out a certain way, I don't want them seeing some poll saying that enough people want romances added that Obsidian decides they have to rework everything they did force romance into the game.

 

That's it.

 

If they are still in the proto-planning phase (which, effectively, they are) and they are trying to decide "do we want to deal with politics? do we want to include siege warfare? do we want to have romance sub-plots?", then I vote for romance being included.

 

Don't play with the numbers just to get it to mean what you want it to mean.

 

So then what you are asking for is something that has never (properly) been done before in the history of computer games. Just the sort of thing to try to add to a low budget game with an 18 month long development cycle.

 

By whom's opinion? I found the romance in Savage Frontier done very well, as did I the one in Krynn, and, yes, I am someone who enjoyed the majority of the romances in most of BioWare's games.

 

They've never been done properly... by who's standard? What measurable criteria? That you and some other people on these forums didn't like them and don't want romances anyway?

 

It's hard to accept the judgment on the quality of something by someone who is predisposed to hate said something already.

 

You are delusional if you believe, that romances won't cut some content out. It is the fair poll actually. For a LIMITED budget, by adding features you have to remove or downsize other features.

 

People voted YES in previous polls, because they don't have the slightest idea that it will make other parts of the game weaker.

 

1 - It only cuts out content if the content was already THERE. Cutting out "potential" content is a ridiculous argument... that's not cutting out, that choosing to implement one thing instead of another. Get more precise which your language if you want to be taken seriously. Obsidian is in the process of deciding the details of the game they are making AND they are soliciting ideas from the forums. You can't paint this as including romance at this point is at the lack of inclusion of something else - ANY one thing added can be blamed for ANY other thing that isn't. It's not like Obsidian is sitting there with two choices before them - "Do we include romances OR do we include AWESOME STUFF EVERYONE WANTS INSTEAD?"

 

2 - It is horribly presumptuous of you to assume that you know what everyone (who voted opposite of what you want) knows or doesn't know. Some of them would be quite ecstatic to have fewer spells or weapons or some other game content in favor of romance.

[Sarathen]

So your example of a properly implemented romance is one from ME2. Exactly what I was expecting. So I take it that you are a fan of post Dragon Age Bioware then. My perhaps unfair generalization is that most of the people clamoring for romance are Biowarians who want to make Project Eternity into yet another Dragon Age or Mass Effect spiritual successor. All I can say is I hope that doesn't happen.

 

I don't think someone liking one of the relationship options from ME2 is a blanket statement that they like all Bioware style romances, or that they want DA/ME clones. DA romantic relationships are annoying, and this is from someone who generally likes having at least some form of non-platonic interaction in games. The "I will give you 20 gifts and now you are my boy/girlfriend and you want to keep my eyelashes in a jar after our awkward underware-clad sex scene" is....ugh.

 

I just don't understand your vehemence against optional relationships in RPGs. The 'maybe you'd get sex in real life' is just as obnoxious as other people's 'you'd like multiplayer if you actually had any friends'. They're both very condescending and not really justifiable, considering you have no insight into or knowledge of these people's lives. Some people seem deadset against the idea just based on principle, and not concerns about it affecting game development. (I'm not saying you are one of those, but they are out there.) To use your words, I guess I 'just don't get' why people get so up an arms about the inclusion of something they don't like, when it's completely optional.

[Malcador]

Why do people want romances in games anyway ? Just curious.

[Amentep]

Why do people want romances in games anyway ? Just curious.

 

Here was my thinking from the previous page - http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60404-merged-gods-save-us-another-romance-thread/page__st__180#entry1200360

[Sarathen]

By that I mean that if Obsidian's view for Project Eternity includes no romances, and they have character interactions and plot points and such planned out a certain way, I don't want them seeing some poll saying that enough people want romances added that Obsidian decides they have to rework everything they did force romance into the game.

 

This times a hundred. In the end, I want Obsidian to tell me the story they want to tell. I'm enjoying reading about people's ideas for areas, game mechanics, pacing, quest options, skills and character generation. But when it comes to the world, the characters and the narrative- I want Obsidian to tell me their story, not the one I told them I wanted to hear.

[Amentep]

This times a hundred. In the end, I want Obsidian to tell me the story they want to tell. I'm enjoying reading about people's ideas for areas, game mechanics, pacing, quest options, skills and character generation. But when it comes to the world, the characters and the narrative- I want Obsidian to tell me their story, not the one I told them I wanted to hear.

 

To be fair, though, don't areas, pacing and quest option (and possibly skills and character generation) discussions also lead to telling Obsidian the story you want to hear? Each of them are tied closely or lightly to the world and therefore the story (and how its told and who with).

 

I think people are throwing things out there they'd like to see - and we all understand that Obsidian if going to make the final decisions for what they think is important and give the vast majority of us things we'll like.

[BSoda]

The forum has spoken. Over 70% of us are happy to sacrifice romances. In my case I'd like to sacrifice them on a stone altar in the underground temple of a multi-tentacled god of evil madness, with an elaborately ornate but cruelly-spiked mace.

...uhm...actually *everyone* voting in this poll here is (at least by OPs definition) already *pro* romance. The only question is *how much* in favor they are.

 

In the other (now closed) romance thread/poll it was 2/3 - 3/4 in favor, 1/4 - 1/3 against romances.

Edited September 21, 2012 by BSoda

[Malcador]

Why do people want romances in games anyway ? Just curious.

 

Here was my thinking from the previous page - http://forums.obsidi...80#entry1200360

 

I guess it might make one's character fleshed out, given the relatively short time frame a game's plot runs through they always seem rushed and just tacky.

[sfg]

 

 

Surprised I am not, but extrapolating BioWare's romances on every romance plot in every possible video game is still stupid. And stupidity has to be fought with, or it will spread futher

 

Romances being a necessary "feature" of RPGs is what's stupid. And it should be fought and destroyed. I don't care if you want romances or if they're there, but when there's people claiming that a game is not an RPG without romances or that they won't play the game without romances, it just shows that those people have no place playing RPGs and are better off with dating simulators. RPGs are NOT dating simulators and are NOT about love affairs.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Neither does doing a sidequest, or reading a lore book. Let's cut all sidequests and lore books out of the game.

 

Oh man its like you totally get the point or something!

 

TwinkieGorilla, I think you're too readily equating romances entirely to sex

 

What I'm equating is Videogame Romances = Sad and Childish.

 

That is all.

[Reddie]

Why do people want romances in games anyway ? Just curious.

 

I don't think someone asked the question: why do people don't want romances in game?

 

When you get a book, or a movie, or any other media and it has a romance subplot - which is pretty common - are you like ewww, there's a romance here, disgusting? Do you advocate for any media in work to not have romances? Even if you have some sort of fictional work that in your opinion could do better without a romance subplot, I'm pretty sure it's about the subplot's quality and not the fact that in presents a romance.

 

So if I take a point that good romance subplot enriches media experience in so many ways, why some people consider it so strange that I would like it in a game?

[TwinkieGorilla]

I don't think someone asked the question: why do people don't want romances in game?

 

Because the format is not equipped to handle it in a less than embarrassing way.

[Reddie]

What I'm equating is Videogame Romances = Sad and Childish.

 

That is all.

 

If you don't equate romance itself, in whatever genre or media as childish, then in fact you are counting videogames as a childish form of entertainment and romances in them get caught by extension.

 

Which really is sad.

 

Because the format is not equipped to handle it in a less than embarrassing way.

 

If you don't feel embarassed about reading a book with romance subplot, why do you feel embarassed about reading in-game text with romance subplot? Because with Project Eternity being like IE isometric RPG's this is the level of presentation we are talking about.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Reddie

[Tigranes]

When you get a book, or a movie, or any other media and it has a romance subplot - which is pretty common - are you like ewww, there's a romance here, disgusting?

 

Yes, if I think that romance is stupid and detracts from the plot, setting or characterisation as a whole. Which is the case in 99% of video game romances I have seen.

 

I want the characters in a story I enjoy to not act like they are in a bad porn film, and I don't think that's unreasonable. You don't say to people, "hey if you don't like that part of the book, don't criticise it, just skip those pages, and everyone is happy."

 

So what if the romance is tucked away so you literally never know it's there unless you go looking, but in reality, that's not how it works (or people would complain there are no romances in the game). And then we also get into where finite resources should go.

[Reddie]

When you get a book, or a movie, or any other media and it has a romance subplot - which is pretty common - are you like ewww, there's a romance here, disgusting?

 

Yes, if I think that romance is stupid and detracts from the plot, setting or characterisation as a whole. Which is the case in 99% of video game romances I have seen.

 

I have addressed that point. Your complaint is against romance quality, not the romance itself. I consider most of the media nowadays to be crappy, but I don't see this as argument for not making any new ones.

 

What is soooo wrong in having Project Eternity be part of this 1%?

[MReed]

Romances being a necessary "feature" of RPGs is what's stupid.

 

This is absolutely true.

 

 

And it should be fought and destroyed. I don't care if you want romances or if they're there, but when there's people claiming that a game is not an RPG without romances or that they won't play the game without romances, it just shows that those people have no place playing RPGs and are better off with dating simulators. RPGs are NOT dating simulators and are NOT about love affairs.

 

Cite please -- I haven't seen anyone here, including romance supporters, indicate that a "game without romances isn't a RPG". In fact, I've seen several people (and I'm one of them) state "What I really want is complex and well developed relationships with companions, and romances is one way to achieve this."

[Sarathen]

To be fair, though, don't areas, pacing and quest option (and possibly skills and character generation) discussions also lead to telling Obsidian the story you want to hear? Each of them are tied closely or lightly to the world and therefore the story (and how its told and who with).

 

I think people are throwing things out there they'd like to see - and we all understand that Obsidian if going to make the final decisions for what they think is important and give the vast majority of us things we'll like.

 

That's an absolutely fair point, and my comment was only intended to reflect my own opinion, not be a subtle jab that we shouldn't be discussing this at all. For me, and only speaking for myself, I see it more as the difference between *how* the game works and how the narrative unfolds, how your companions react, what their personalities are and what drives them, the different cultures of the world and so on. There are innumerable elements of gameplay that I've liked/hated, but the only story-oriented criticism I tend to have is for gaping plot holes and characters that wind up acting completely contrary to the personality the writer already defined.

 

I realize I'm not explaining this very well. If it helps, I'm one of those 'story first, gameplay second' kind of people. I'll put up with all sorts of frustrating gaming experiences if the story is good enough that I need to reach its conclusion, no matter what that might be. Or phrased a little more concisely: PST is my favorite game of all-time-ever-seriously-you-guys.

 

Edited because damn, benadryl makes my typing terrible.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Sarathen

[Malcador]

Why do people want romances in games anyway ? Just curious.

 

I don't think someone asked the question: why do people don't want romances in game?

 

When you get a book, or a movie, or any other media and it has a romance subplot - which is pretty common - are you like ewww, there's a romance here, disgusting? Do you advocate for any media in work to not have romances? Even if you have some sort of fictional work that in your opinion could do better without a romance subplot, I'm pretty sure it's about the subplot's quality and not the fact that in presents a romance.

 

So if I take a point that good romance subplot enriches media experience in so many ways, why some people consider it so strange that I would like it in a game?

 

Ah right, this line of thinking - wonder why it's so common. You need positive reasons for something, not negative, which is why I asked the question that prompted your passive sniping there, heh. Romance in games is always cheap and rushed out - consequence of the game not really having enough "time" and/or the designers just being garbage at it, I suppose.

 

My experience with ME, DA, KOTOR didn't really feel more enriching if I hooked up as opposed to not hooking up, I guess there were some sappy lines though.

[Amentep]

Why do people want romances in games anyway ? Just curious.

 

I don't think someone asked the question: why do people don't want romances in game?

 

My impression on this is

• Romances tend to be PC centric to the point of overriding character logic; NPCs throw themselves at the PC and romance only fails if the PC chooses not to.
  
• Unlike books or movies, video games world simulation doesn't fit easily with building a romance properly; in books or film the narrative can jump around and give the illusion of time within a romance; games don't do this easily (but some games do play around with time jumps in narrative)
  
• Building proper choice and consequence (and reflection of romantic choices in game) will take development from some other part of the game (probably romances will take the place of other quests). Given an idea that there might be a 1-to-1 ratio, if three characters are created as romanceable then it replaces three quests and the choice and consequence of those quests. But from a gameplay perspective those three quests might have been available to all character whereas the romances will be monogamous most likely (note some quests may become class or character specific, so I'm not sure 1-to-1 mapping is really an appropriate way to look at it)
  
• Focus - most RPGers are focused on the story and world building and don't see that romances as improving that aspect
  
• Loot - video games have a lack of dowery gifts, making the monty hauler feel sad for wasting their time marrying when they could have been beating up goblins for jink (okay, I'm joking on this one)
  

Any game development has limited resources - this one probably moreso than others. Its understandable that people are going to feel passionate about getting things in the game that they feel use the resources in ways that will maximize their enjoyment.

[Grimlorn]

Why do people want romances in games anyway ? Just curious.

 

I don't think someone asked the question: why do people don't want romances in game?

It's been answered to death. It's never been done well. It's cheesy. It takes resources from other parts of the game.

 

All the romance crowd can say is, yeah it's bad in most games but that doesn't mean it will be here. It makes no sense. Why keep trying to do something that doesn't work?

 

And people keep using PST as an example, but there wasn't really romance there. Most, if not all, the romance crowd is from Bioware. They want the same things they ask Bioware for. Romance all companions. Romances where there are fights with your love interest, romances that have story after you bed them, romances that can fail, but when they fail you become platonic friends and there are stories for that. This is what the romance crowd was asking for in previous threads, and at a certain point you have to say enough is enough and this is ridiculous to ask for.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Grimlorn

[TwinkieGorilla]

 

If you don't equate romance itself, in whatever genre or media as childish, then in fact you are counting videogames as a childish form of entertainment and romances in them get caught by extension.

 

Which really is sad.

 

Why is that sad? I'm an adult and feel completely comfortable calling videogames one of my guilty juvenile pleasures. I don't look to them to fulfil me the same way an Ingmar Bergman film or T.S. Eliot poem would. I play videogames to play games. To have fun using strategy, solving puzzles and hopefully get entertained with some fresh, interesting and well-implemented stories and ideas. But even the most well-written games (PS:T for instance) do not come anywhere near the most well-written films, books or poems. It is what it is.

 

UH OH CUE VIDEOGAMES VS ART CONVERSATION IN 3...2...1...

[Malcador]

I am pro-hookers in game, though.

 

 

What ?

[qloher]

Why is that sad? I'm an adult and feel completely comfortable calling videogames one of my guilty juvenile pleasures. I don't look to them to fulfil me the same way an Ingmar Bergman film or T.S. Eliot poem would. I play videogames to play games. To have fun using strategy, solving puzzles and hopefully get entertained with some fresh, interesting and well-implemented stories and ideas. But even the most well-written games (PS:T for instance) do not come anywhere near the most well-written films, books or poems. It is what it is.

 

UH OH CUE VIDEOGAMES VS ART CONVERSATION IN 3...2...1...

Videogames are art on pair with movies/books/etc. if not even higher thanks to the interactivity aspect.

You should be ashamed.

 

What? I had to tell this!

Edited September 21, 2012 by qloher

[Reddie]

Romance in games is always cheap and rushed out - consequence of the game not really having enough "time" and/or the designers just being garbage at it, I suppose.

 

My experience with ME, DA, KOTOR didn't really feel more enriching if I hooked up as opposed to not hooking up, I guess there were some sappy lines though.

 

I think this may be a reason why romances in games you've mentioned well, sucked (KOTOR had some good parts, but far from being significantly better). BioWare treats romance as fanservice, they literally throw it into their games because, well, it sells. Their fanbase largely likes it, but they do feel stupid, rushed, unnatural and forced because they do not consist an actual part of the plot.

 

Good romances in other types of media are always parts of the story itself, and should be treated as such. So it's writing quality we are talking about here.