Crafting, Alchemy, Enchanting, Spell improvement

[l3loodangel]

Do you want to have a rich system of item creation and a system that let's you improve spells?

 

EDIT. I have edited the poll, so that people could choose multiple answers. (Some people were choosing first 6 so...) Sry for that.

Edited September 18, 2012 by l3loodangel

[Tauron]

yes, yes, yes and yes!

[dlux]

"1,2 and 3" + "1,2,3 and 4"

 

You can make the poll multiple choice you know.

[l3loodangel]

"1,2 and 3" + "1,2,3 and 4"

 

You can make the poll multiple choice you know.

 

Maybe it was a good idea...

[Shadenuat]

Truth is I don't know. Aside from Arcanum, no crafting system was really fun or balanced. And Arcanum actually was't balanced either, just very fun. It seems like every time crafting is implemented in the game, something goes wrong, like:

- Crafting is useless because rare artifacts are still more powerful.

- Crafting is on par with other items, but if so, why bother?

- It's imba (-% of spell cost in Skyrim as a recent example).

- It ruins economy.

- It requers too much skill points which could be spend elsewhere. Though as we have party of characters, that one is probably solved.

- There is plenty of money to buy stuff without actually crafting them.

 

When crafting really worked, it usually meant it added some items to the game which could never ever be acquired other way (Baldur's Gate 2, Wizardry 8, Arcanum...).

[l3loodangel]

Truth is I don't know. Aside from Arcanum, no crafting system was really fun or balanced. And Arcanum actually was't balanced either, just very fun. It seems like every time crafting is implemented in the game, something goes wrong, like:

- Crafting is useless because rare artifacts are still more powerful.

- Crafting is on par with other items, but if so, why bother?

- It's imba (-% of spell cost in Skyrim as a recent example).

- It ruins economy.

- It requers too much skill points which could be spend elsewhere. Though as we have party of characters, that one is probably solved.

- There is plenty of money to buy stuff without actually crafting them.

 

When crafting really worked, it usually meant it added some items to the game which could never ever be acquired other way (Baldur's Gate 2, Wizardry 8, Arcanum...).

 

I really like crafting in AoD, but it's a low fantasy setting...

[Tlantl]

I've played games with it and without. If the game is designed to be a sandbox where you can do pretty much what you want and crafting is just something else to do I like it. In games where it allows a player to make useless or inadequate items I surely have no use for it. If everything is level based and the power level of the stuff you make is dependent on that level then everything you make is useless or less useful than the stuff you will find, that is unless you can make unique items.

 

I find that in games like these you wind up with a lot of excess cash, you never want for potions or scrolls, or weapons and armor for that matter. If the game supplies all of your needs I can't see wasting precious code resources on item creation. If on the other hand the game is designed to be stingy with powerful and useful items, potions and the like then being able to make your own is a boon.

 

So the question then becomes, what system are they using and do we need to be able to make our own stuff.

 

Unless it's going to add enjoyment to the game then go on and include it. If it does nothing for the game but waste precious resources I say they should give it a pass.

[Shadenuat]

I really like crafting in AoD, but it's a low fantasy setting...

 

Yeah it allowed to overrun enemies by better steel weapons and armour. However, at a cost of heavy metagaming.

[Telefax]

cant say i like crafting overall that much. in a D&D like game you generally want to have the best rewards hidden deep in dungeons for loot, and making your own epic stuff tend to diminish that. also, tracking crafting materials for a dozen recipes at once in a game with a limited inventory system (and where crafting probably is a skill costing points) feel like too much hassle to be worth it. I can understand crafting in an immersion sim like skyrim, but for a story driven game crafting tends to just add wtf am i doing-moments

[l3loodangel]

cant say i like crafting overall that much. in a D&D like game you generally want to have the best rewards hidden deep in dungeons for loot, and making your own epic stuff tend to diminish that.

 

Nobody says that you can't make epic stuff from rare ingredients/materials found in dungeons.

[dlux]

Crafting is fun if done right. With extremely rare ingredients you can make epic weapons or improvements (like runes) or even upgrade legendary weapons. Maybe you can find a legenardy broken item and reforge it.

 

Stuff like that is fun.

[Blablachar]

1-4- yes.

 

More options to create such objects, the better- plus extra reason to do side quests and explore in order to find new ingridients.

[MinotaurWarrior]

The Witcher 2 did some great things with crafting / alchemy, and I think, for all its faults, Kingdoms of Amalur had some interesting ideas in this sphere.

 

In TW2, crafting and alchmy can be used to create consumable / placeable items (potions, bombs, and traps) that are otherwise available, but finite. While there were some issues with this (trap spam was silly), overall it worked incredibly well. One of the best-handled concept was alchemy, because of the generally balanced potions, and the limited application - you could only have 3 potions, and 100 toxicity. Implimenting similar limits on consumables in Project Eternity would be a great idea. If there are bombs (or similar items), place them on a bandolier, so we can only use a set number of them per encounter. If there are traps, allow them to damage our party, and don't allow them to stack on the same tile, so we have to be careful in their placement.

For armor and weapons, TW2 made crafted items almost like a second kind of distributed loot. Particularly in Dark Mode, the Oathbreaker's outfits were like rewards for completing the entire chapter.

 

In KOA:R, most items can be demolished into their components, but something will always be lost in the process. So the Sword of Electric Lifeleeching you looted, despite not having any swordsman in your party? Deconstruct it for parts, and you might get an electrifying hilt that can be used to make a new weapon. I think this worked well.

[gandalf.nho]

I like crafting in RPGs, and about the epic loot, in BG 1 and 2 was possible to turn some trophies in items (armors made of dragon scales or ankheg carapace) or reforge broken weapons (like the 3-headed flail in BG2). At least is interesting to be able to craft consumables like potions and ammunition (arrows, bullets...)

[LadyCrimson]

I like stuff like this ... however much of the time, crafting of armor and weapons in games feels a bit too weak for me and I end up not using it much. There's not enough reward at the end - vs. found loot - for all the time/gold you may have put into it ... well, except for a couple MMO's I played, and this isn't an MMO (thank goodness).

 

Alchemy I always like, so that's my poll vote, but enchanting is always fun too.

[Fluid29]

I always liked and still like "crafting" in Baldurs Gate 2 where you had to find all the ingredients of an artefact and then bring these to Cromwell who crafts the weapon or whatever the artefact is.

[rjshae]

Rather than crafting a multitude of magic items, I'd actually like to see rare items of legend that scale distinctively with the advancement of the bonded character. That would make enchanted items feel unique and precious. The available legendary items could be varied with each game, making replay more interesting.

[Nakia]

Alchemy, enchantment, spell improvement Yes. I have mixed feelings about crafting. It can be abused. It is something I prefer to add after I have a played the game a couple of times. Make your own arrows as a perk for archer types would be handy. Cooking? How much talent does it take to stick a haunch of meat on a spit? Smithing? Would that be a perk skill as in Skyrim?

 

As for alchemy and enchantment I did like the way it was handled in Skyrim.

[Kevin Lynch]

I'd love to have each of those in the game, if they can be managed without slowing down the gameplay or being so unwieldy (as in managing a huge number of different ingredients/components) that you don't want to bother.

[Metabot]

I was actually going to make a topic about this earlier, but I never could get around to it. I want all of these, but they need to be made interesting. For example, crafting weapons shouldn't be "take on iron ingot and a couple of other materials and you get a sword of awesome." I want there to be rare parts and also the ability to take weapons apart and use pieces from one weapon and combine with another. Maybe a way to experiment with different alloys and a way to make your own alloys.

 

I want alchemy too, but so much more can be done with this, I think. There needs to be a way to experiment and make your own potions with unique properties. The way this might be implemented is for each ingredient to have specific properties and if you wanted to be an alchemist you really would need to understand these properties. They wouldn't be like "damage health", they would be something like, "this ingredient is known by x people to have detrimental effects on one's health." etc.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Metabot

[JWestfall]

Crafting - meh, never played a game where I was much interested in this

 

Alchemy - yes, especially tasty if a certain class/skill group revolves around it's use (think Witcher 2, which had a good alchemy system IMO)

 

Enchantment - sure, if we are talking about imbuing items with runes, a la Torchlight (wthout so much micromanaging), or Kingdoms of Amalur.

 

Spell Improvmenet - definitely, but it needs to be balanced. Perhaps with a risk vs. reward system, such as empowering a spell increasing backfire chance.

Edited September 19, 2012 by JWestfall

[DYWYPI]

It rather depends what these actually mean in in-game terms.

 

Crafting as in restoring powerful ancient artifacts or creating unique or semi-unique armors from the hides of mythical beasts? Sure, that's great. Crafting as in being a level 34 Blacksmith and wanting to make six more Pitted Ankheg Plates so you can level up and learn how to craft a new Sharp Cold Iron Sword? I think I can pass.

 

Enchanting really depends how you do it. If it's expensive, rare, and non-overpowering enough, it can be an interesting way to customize and improve your favorite items. But we need to steer far, far away from TES-style enchanting that essentially makes magical loot irrelevant due to its potency and the fact that it doesn't work on already-magical artifacts.

 

Basically, I'd like those if they're given to an NPC that the player pays for their services, and who requires unique or at least uncommon and unusual ingredients in order to create unique or at least uncommon and unusual items or effects, but absolutely not an MMO-profession style implementation. They should feel special, unique and rare. I want to find some Sparkling Fairy Dust in a treasure cache and know that I can take it to Bob McEnchanter at the Mage's Guild and have him give my favorite dagger my choice of a +1 bonus or fire damage, not to farm Sparkling Fairy Dust in order to put Intermediate Fireblasting on everyone's weapon.

 

Alchemy is potentially a bit different, since the items it makes are consumable. Being able to make the potions you need, or to convert the ones you don't into them, could be a potentially useful and interesting mechanic. It might even convince a hardcore potion / wand / scroll hoarder like myself to occasionally use one or two!

 

Spell improvement, like enchanting, would have to be rare and unique. It also seems kind of superfluous, given that spells will presumably be improved and changed with level-ups in any case.

[Umberlin]

Crafting - meh, never played a game where I was much interested in this

 

Alchemy - yes, especially tasty if a certain class/skill group revolves around it's use (think Witcher 2, which had a good alchemy system IMO)

 

Enchantment - sure, if we are talking about imbuing items with runes, a la Torchlight (wthout so much micromanaging), or Kingdoms of Amalur.

 

Spell Improvmenet - definitely, but it needs to be balanced. Perhaps with a risk vs. reward system, such as empowering a spell increasing backfire chance.

 

I like crafting systems in the first, but I can respect your stance on them. I actually wanted to talk about the spell improvement point you made. I think it's either a good idea or a bad idea, depending on how the rest of the game works. For example if you can melee without cost, auto-attacking for lack fo a better term, for decent damage and never run out of a resource, thus attacking continuosly forever without penalty . . . I'm not sure a limiter like backfire has a place. If there are limiters for all forms of combat though, then a limiter like backfire definitely has a place.

 

Personally I like limiters for all forms of combat, that make you have to expend energy of some sort for a given action. I never felt like an action should be free whether it be swinging a sword or spreading an oil slick along the ground. I say this because I like it when I have to think before I leap, so to speak, and I really think having to pick and choose what you do, and when, is one, out of several, ways to ensure a character has to think and create tactics to tackle a given challenge. I like the idea of cost, but if there is cost for one there needs to be cost for all. If one person can simply run out of 'whatever their main mode of challenge interaction is' then all should be able to run out.

 

In my my if you're that guy that has a resource that can run out, and you have another guy along with you that can just keep going forever . . . there's something wrong - unless the guy that can keep going forever is much, much weaker . . . which wouldn't be very fun. I imagine it's really hard to make these systems. The more I think about it the more I realize the complexity and laters that need to go into them to reward and challenge the player.

 

Anyways, sorry, rambling, but your note on Spell Improvement just made me think about that.

[JWestfall]

For example if you can melee without cost, auto-attacking for lack fo a better term, for decent damage and never run out of a resource, thus attacking continuosly forever without penalty . . . I'm not sure a limiter like backfire has a place. If there are limiters for all forms of combat though, then a limiter like backfire definitely has a place.

 

What I was thinking of was more of a mechanic of gambling for a big payoff, with the bigger the payoff having bigger risk. Standard attacking would be considered "safe" in this sense. If you had, say, a particularly nasty enemy you wanted to take down very quickly, there would be the option for an "empowered" spell to do extra damage - but with a chance of not only failure but negative affects.

 

But yes, it would certainly need to fit with the rest of the mechanics, and of course be fun to use. I'm not conviced that having a spell blow up your face, especially when facing an already dangerous situation, would have that fun-factor. So, even though it was my (not well thought-out) suggestion, I'm not necessarily sold on idea either.

[Drakxii]

Sandbox mp games? Yes please

Single player game? Ehh... it will either end up pointless or way overpowered.

 

Personally I would rather potions not to be hugly over priced, skills or something class related to effect spells and to get intesting/rare items from dungoens and quests. Instead of my characters becoming the best blacksmith in all of world in his spare time.