Do you want firearms in Project Eternity?

[Stiler]

For me, having guns in the games is ok if it's down more Arcanum like or more "fantasy" guns. old school style steampunk/weird guns with magic elemetns or things.

 

I don't want to see modern military generic types of guns.

[Nivenus]

For me, having guns in the games is ok if it's down more Arcanum like or more "fantasy" guns. old school style steampunk/weird guns with magic elemetns or things.

 

I don't want to see modern military generic types of guns.

 

As covered in the "What we know..." thread, J.E. Sawyer has already confirmed that guns will be a relatively recent invention and fairly uncommon in the gameworld. So I'm thinking it'll mostly be flintlocks and arquebuses, with maybe the occasional musket. Less advanced than steampunk, in other words.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Nivenus

[Arundor]

EDIT: Removed. This had already been covered but I didn't notice. Sorry.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Arundor

[LadyCrimson]

Where's the "Doesn't matter to me?" poll option?

 

I think guns in a more medieval setting could be interesting. Guns vs. magic ... I've read books like that and it can work well. So I'm open to the idea. I'd would rather not have guns = too modern a setting, however. It's fantasy - it doesn't have to follow Earth history in terms of what (for example) clothing or cultural style period goes with what tech.

[Tamerlane]

No, but I won't be heartbroken if they're there.

 

EDIT: I should say, "I'm not heartbroken that they will be there."

Edited September 19, 2012 by Tamerlane

[Sparrow]

Personally I don't like them and would avoid using them if it were possible. Every game I've played that's had guns and bows and magic all at once has felt incongruous.

[jediwolf]

Oh God why?? Why firearms in PE?? Dont want to play fantasy game mixes with steampunk ....;[ It should be a game like BG or ID. Truly fantasy world.

[Nivenus]

Oh God why?? Why firearms in PE?? Dont want to play fantasy game mixes with steampunk ....;[ It should be a game like BG or ID. Truly fantasy world.

 

Everyone keeps on assuming guns = steampunk. That is simply false and belies an unfortunately common misconception about medieval warfare.

 

As many, many posters have pointed out, guns existed long before the modern steam engine was invented and quite a bit before it became widespread. Furthermore, guns coexisted with more "traditional" fantasy arms like swords, pikes, and even bows for a couple centuries easily enough. Hell, plate armor postdates the invention of firearms: Gothic plate armor first gained popularity in the 16th century, which is two hundred years after hand cannons were introduced and one hundred after the introduction of arquebuses.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Nivenus

[honkytonk]

I hope and think the intention is to give the player an opener for a fight: you fire your handgun once and after that you go into melee since it'll take time to reload your weapon.

I assume we won't see someone going all rambo on the enemies with a mg or even a revolver. I think revolvers were invented sometime in the 19th century and it would make sense if you only get a single shot weapon with a long reload. Maybe even with a fuse and good luck trying to use it during rain :D

[Sarkus]

At this point I accept that guns are going to be in the game, though I voted that I prefer they not be. And as long as they are implemented in the way we've been told, then I'll live with them. That said, I do think it is a little misleading to promote the game as being a spiritual successor to classic fantasy setting games and then not offer a classic fantasy setting. Note that we'd not really know anything about the guns if someone hadn't found that artwork and had Sawyer not confirmed it was PE related.

 

Historical arguments aside, the truth is that we associate the gun with the modern world. And one of the big reasons Tolkeinesque fantasy is popular is because it reflects Tolkiens own dislike of the modern world. So from that standpoint I find the idea a bit unnecessary, and for the same reasons found the old Might and Magiic games introduction of guns late rather pointless.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if you are going to implement guns then go all the way and do a steampunk game like Arcanum. If you want fantasy go classic fantasy. Trying to blur the lines may be artistically interesting, but runs a high risk of alienating some people as well. And from a pure marketing standpoint, the upcoming Hobbit films will likely create another boom for classic fantasy anyway.

[Nivenus]

That said, I do think it is a little misleading to promote the game as being a spiritual successor to classic fantasy setting games and then not offer a classic fantasy setting.

 

They also said it was a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment, which is anything but a traditional fantasy setting, even if Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale are. So I think you were reading something into their statements that Obsidian didn't really intend.

 

Note that we'd not really know anything about the guns if someone hadn't found that artwork and had Sawyer not confirmed it was PE related.

 

I think that's a bit unfair. For one thing, Tim Cain mentioned there were guns in a Eurogamer interview separately from Sawyer's comments. Furthermore, Sawyer didn't have to say the concept art was for Project Eternity and the artist needn't have made the art available if they wanted to keep the presence of firearms a "secret" as you imply.

 

The truth is that Obsidian has long had a reputation of playing with standard genre expectations and I find it surprising you expected something a bit more vanilla.

 

Historical arguments aside, the truth is that we associate the gun with the modern world. And one of the big reasons Tolkeinesque fantasy is popular is because it reflects Tolkiens own dislike of the modern world. So from that standpoint I find the idea a bit unnecessary, and for the same reasons found the old Might and Magiic games introduction of guns late rather pointless.

 

But Tolkien isn't the end all, be all of fantasy (much as I admire him and enjoy his works). There's plenty of other examples of fantasy that exhibit a different attitude towards technology and modernism, from Terry Pratchett (whose settings seem to be a blend of modern, medieval, and Victorian-era culture) to George R.R. Martin (which has a very cynical view of medieval culture).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if you are going to implement guns then go all the way and do a steampunk game like Arcanum. If you want fantasy go classic fantasy. Trying to blur the lines may be artistically interesting, but runs a high risk of alienating some people as well. And from a pure marketing standpoint, the upcoming Hobbit films will likely create another boom for classic fantasy anyway.

 

If Obsidian was interested in going a "safe" route with Project Eternity they wouldn't have put it up on Kickstarter: they would have pursued investment from publishers the old-fashioned way. While it's true they may alienate some people by putting firearms in the game, it's also likely they'll alienate others by making the game isometric or using RTWP instead of a purely turn-based system. Some people are notably upset in the other direction: that the game is too traditional (i.e., is pseudo-historical fantasy with elves and dwarves).

 

I think in all honesty that people are being a bit too prickly - we hardly know anything about the game except for some very basic ideas and concepts. Until we see these ideas in action, it's too early to say whether they work or don't work. Given Obsidian's credentials and the credentials of the people working for it, I'm willing to put my faith in their ability to make it work. But ultimately we'll have to wait and see.

[Monkcrab]

As long as it's not going to be a DUDEBRO OH YEAH MACHINEGUNS kind of thing, yes to firearms. And this may be a minority opinion here, but I wouldn't like a species/race lock on firearms. That didn't happen in the real world; of course there were nations with less expertise with them who had to hire mercenaries from guns-enabled nations, but the adoption was relatively fast, either through buying, hiring, or just getting conquered by people with guns. We always like finding new ways to kill and threaten each other, after all.

[japol]

If they are going to include guns no matter what,then i think they should go all the way.

Meaning making technology an important part of the world,creating a technology skill branch and making a couple classes out of it.

Add a ''modern'' arsenal of items and weapons etc.

Otherwise,if they want to include only guns and nothing else technology-wise,i wouldn't agree.

Personally i would rather see this game go all the way,instead of being just another game in more or less traditional fantasy setting.

Edited September 19, 2012 by japol

[Canova]

i think obsidian should be honest with us here... i really, really dont like how they are still hiding some basic info about their new setting. if project eternity wont be set in a typical medieval fantasy setting they should like say it out loud. taking money from old school RPG fans who expect RPG set in a high fantasy setting and then revealing their game will be set in a science fantasy world... well, that would be like really bad thing to do

and yeah, i dont buy claims that setting can still be quality medieval fantasy even with existence of firearms. there would be no need for such inventions in typical well made high fantasy world and adding guns just for the sake of it of for the "kool effect" is really bad idea.

[Gurkog]

What is typical fantasy? Star Wars? Middle Earth? Dresden Files? I think there is plenty of room in the universe for some guns that were put in use before plate armor was widely used.

[Nivenus]

i think obsidian should be honest with us here... i really, really dont like how they are still hiding some basic info about their new setting. if project eternity wont be set in a typical medieval fantasy setting they should like say it out loud.

 

Are people just pretending PS:T wasn't one of the three main games mentioned as an inspiration for Project Eternity? Because honestly, it's beginning to come off that way.

 

In any case, I doubt they're adding guns because they're "kool." If anything, it's (as many posters have shown now) a risky move on their part. I imagine they added guns because they thought it would be interesting and different.

[Monkcrab]

Inventions tend to happen without a need for them, though. Guns could well be an invention of two bored college mages mucking about in the alchemy lab, deciding to play 'let's destroy the other college's wall from here using that sack of overstocked saltpeter', then the janitor walks by and tells it to his kids, who tells it to the ambitious merchant next door, and the rest is history....

 

It would be interesting if guns serve a different cultural and political purpose than they do in our world. In a fantasy world, I can't see why they wouldn't. Perhaps they're a curiousity. Perhaps they're mostly hunting tools. Perhaps they're seen as crude, technological poor implements. It's hard to tell whether they 'have a place in the fantasy world' unless we know what they're supposed to be first.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Monkcrab

[CommissarMega]

I dont buy claims that setting can still be quality medieval fantasy even with existence of firearms. there would be no need for such inventions in typical well made high fantasy world and adding guns just for the sake of it of for the "kool effect" is really bad idea.

 

 

I never got the vibe that Eternity was going to be a medieval fantasy in the first place; I see it as early Renaissance, somewhere between a Tolkienesque fantasy world and Eberron magipunk. It's Middle Earth growing up. And I do think there would be the need for such inventions ESPECIALLY in a high fantasy world, if only to equalize things between eternally put-upon civilians and the high-ranking nobility- after all, remember that the only reason guns became popular over weapons like the longbow (which was unmatched for firing rate and penetration until around the 17th/18th Centuries) was because they were quicker and easier to make as well as train with than longbows, which demanded such dedication from its users it literally warped their skeletons.

[Dalliance5]

Thanks for all the replies. I apologize for limiting the poll to yes/no responses, just my inexperience showing. Instead I should have set it up as:

• Definitely yes
  
• Maybe yes
  
• Indifferent
  
• Maybe no
  
• Definitely no
  

To summarize, the general feeling among respondants seems to be "yes or probably yes, IF appropriate to the setting."

Surprisingly, no-one's mentioned the Easter egg prize in Baldur's Gate I/II for solving the bronze/silver/gold pantaloons enigma - the Big Metal Rod grenade launcher! Also, in Dragon Age the Qunari (who also have mages among them) had gunpowder/cannons, so it would be only a matter of time until hand-held firearms would be developed.

I'm hoping the designers will make the firearms magic-based to some extent or have magic versions (think of the daemonic weapons in Warhammer 40K), perhaps even with sentience. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that P:E should be a shooting fest.

[CommissarMega]

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that P:E should be a shooting fest.

 

Fear not, I think we got that That said, I have proposed magic firearms elsewhere, but just like any proper magic item, they should be both rare and special, not available for purchase off the shelf at Mysterio's Magic Mart™.

[DarthAdamRG]

Maybe not accesible at an early level, but after a discovery of the skills necesary to craft and work one, to higher lvl ranged characters.

[Skyturnedred]

I'd love a character that can shoot people in the face with one hand and use the other hand to throw spells at them. E.g. freeze them first, then shatter them with one bullet.

[rohezal]

No I don't want them or very very very rare. Like the one in BG 2 (the strange dwarf who solds stuff in the start city).

[CommissarMega]

Maybe not accesible at an early level, but after a discovery of the skills necesary to craft and work one, to higher lvl ranged characters.

 

It seems like they're somewhat common, though. As I mentioned, guns became popular IRL because they were easy to make, use and train to use, despite being inferior to weapons like the longbow for centuries. In a realm (especially one of dark and/or 'realistic' fantasy), they'd be even m ore popular as they'd be able to provide common people some way to strike back at all the magically armoured murderhobos running around.

 

EDIT: Again, they'd be inferior to longbows in almost every manner, especially if we're talking wheelock rifles (really primitive guns, barely a step or two above arquebuses). Hell, the reason many early gun battles took place at ranges of around 50 yards was because the lack of rifling in their barrels (an innovation which didn't arrive until the 18/19th Centuries) caused a bullet already deformed by ramming it down the barrel to fly every which way. I remember one early manual which said that if you wanted to hit someone in the chest at 100 yards, aim for their knees

Edited September 19, 2012 by CommissarMega

[trulez]

Absolutely no.

 

The age old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight" is true for a reason, once you have the firepower to stop a person from distance it kinda makes melee weapons redundant.

 

Also, the whole notion of mixing gunpowder with fantasy setting make some things rather wonky. If you can have a stick of dynamite or a bomb, you could just blow the opponent to smithereens, or blow up buildings, or throw them as "grenades" during combat, or what ever. The possibilities of abusing gunpowder is almost endless and there's no way an RPG can accommodate all of it, which makes me always dumb founded when I realize my character is inept at using explosives even if his INT stat is maxed out, but a gun is something readily available because of course just anyone can make a gun.

 

So in conclusion, no to gunpowder all together.

Edited September 19, 2012 by trulez