Things that made "companions" great!

[Fooine]

I can't believe anyone can actually play through DA:O, let alone DA2. It's about as much fun as watching paint dry. You guys must get really bored. Also, giving examples from those games as if you expected the rest of us to have played them is silly. If we liked games like that we wouldn't be here. Also minsc and boo were great characters...if you are like 5 years old. Nearly all the writing in BG2 and every other Bioware game ever made is/was laughably bad. Much of it seemed like it was written by and for preteens. I've played a lot of cRPGs over the years, and I haven't found many with worse dialogue or so called voice acting. BG2 is one of my favorite cRPGs of all time mostly because of the combat dynamics. Not because of the wriiting. If only Avellone had visited Canada more often to set them straight, but I guess he was pretty busy at the time writing his own masterpieces. If you want to talk about good companions you're pretty much stuck talking about PS:T or some other game where the writing was done by Avellone and other members of Team Torment. That's what I thought this thread was going to be about. This game is going to be modeled after IE games and mostly ones from Black Isle. Why not just accept that it's not going to be Dragon Age 3. Your already getting that. Maybe they'll even throw in an 'awesome' button if you're lucky. It sounds like you guys could use one of those.

 

I respect your right to have an opinion, but you're being an a**hole about it.

 

Sorry.

 

EDIT: I should clarify what I mean.

 

I think that DA games are solid games on their own. Not perfect, but solid. Say what you want about the DA2 storyline, but I have tremendous respect for the idea of having the plot be about the politics of a city, rather than the cliché old "saving the world from embodiment of evil". The execution was flawed and the gameplay was lacking, but I appreciate Bioware taking the risk at less-than-traditional storytelling. Belittleling people for enjoying these games is just childish on your part.

 

(EDIT#2: Moonlight Butterfly's image summarizes my thoughts on that comment perfectly)

 

I have f**kall idea what you mean by "if only Avellone had visited Canada more often". I'm Canadian myself, but seriously, WTF. As if good storytelling couldn't come from anywhere else. On that point, you're an idiot and a ****.

 

Finally, don't presume what it'll be before we have any significant information from the devs. I'm sure you think you're edgy and cool with your "this is going to be DA3" cynicism, but you're really just being a downer about something that has potential to be great.

 

So yeah.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Fooine

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I don't know if anyone here has played a JRPG called Tales of Vesperia but now and again you can press a button (a subtle prompt appears) and your companions will have this big conversation about what is happening at the time. It's pretty fun to hear about what's going on with them and what they think.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJCD7unPau8&feature=relatedI'm sure Obsidian could do it much better of course.

I can't believe anyone can actually play through DA:O, let alone DA2. It's about as much fun as watching paint dry. You guys must get really bored. Also, giving examples from those games as if you expected the rest of us to have played them is silly. If we liked games like that we wouldn't be here. Also minsc and boo were great characters...if you are like 5 years old. Nearly all the writing in BG2 and every other Bioware game ever made is/was laughably bad. Much of it seemed like it was written by and for preteens. I've played a lot of cRPGs over the years, and I haven't found many with worse dialogue or so called voice acting.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Lorfean]

I have f**kall idea what you mean by "if only Avellone had visited Canada more often". I'm Canadian myself, but seriously, WTF. As if good storytelling couldn't come from anywhere else. On that point, you're an idiot and a ****.

BioWare is a Canadian company and Black Isle published and acted as advisors on the BG series. I'm guessing he's assuming that, during development, Black Isle's involvement would have some of their team (possibly including MCA) travel to Bio's offices Edmonton to work with them. His post is filled with elitist bull**** and Bio-hate, but I don't think that statement meant anything other than that he wished Black Isle had had more of a hand in BG2's story development

[metiman]

Feargus and I believe Chris as well did in fact visit Bioware from time to time while they were their publisher to check on their progress and even give them a bit of advice just as you would expect. This thread seems to reinforce my belief that most biodrones are so young that they have no sense of video game history at all and that the only reason they like garbage like DA2 is that they don't know any better. They simply have never experienced a real cRPG and have been conditioned to enjoy social simulators. Or it may just be that they've never played a game they didn't like.

 

I suppose I could give my own review of DA:O although I haven't tried playing it in a long time. There are so many reasons why it as an awful game that it is difficult for me to believe that even a single person would have the patience to play it. I found it more tedious than washing dishes, and I am most definitely a cRPG fan. Perhaps if compared to MMORPGs it doesn't fare so badly, but compared to real games it is not even remotely worth spending time with. I guess young kids do have a lot of free time, but there are so many games that are far superior. A replay of BG2 for instance. Hell, even Arena or Daggerfall are far better games but compared to the ones in my sig Dragon Age is a crime against humanity.

 

I tried so hard to like Dragon Age. I really did. I had been naively looking forward to it, hoping that despite my doubts they really had been attempting a spiritual successor to BG2, finally. NWN, and NWN2 (with the exception of MotB and to some extent SoZ) were both pretty big dissapointments to me. Although their aims to reproduce PnP gaming was quite noble and groundbreaking. I was one of those people that had been dreaming of a BG3 for years, but I had become accustomed to being disappointed by them by that point.

 

What I remember is that you fight the same kind of creatures the whole time. The game is mostly about, to borrow a bit of mmorpg-speak, fighting 'trash mobs'. And it's not like the awful combat is rare. It's nearly constant. Everything about the fighting was awful and poorly thought out. Everything. I cannot think of even a single redeeming feature. Far from being a spiritual succesor, Dragon Age was the opposite of BG2 in nearly every way. Especially the combat, which followed the modern trend of popamole action game combat. That's what rakes in the big bucks and one of the reasons Obsidian needs to use kickstarter to fund the kind of game they used to make, not dumbed down with things like Awesome Buttons and twitchy popamole consolized combat.

 

And of course, in the usual Bioware way, the writing would have flunked freshman English class. Is it really so expensive to hire a real writer like Avellone? Or is it just because an 'awesome button' appeals more to the masses and is a lot cheaper? A common paraphrase of H.L. Mencken is "You can never lose money by underestimating the intelligence of the general public." I bet that saying is sitting framed on a wall somewhere at the EA/Bioware offices. That really is how they think. They dont' care about gaming or gamers. To them it's just something little kids do. If Bioware had actually cared about a well written story they could easily have hired a real writer. After all, MCA may be the best writer in the world of videogames but he is not the only gifted writer in the world. Perhaps the doctors didn't care about the writing or just didn't know the difference. Of course even if they had hired a real writer he would have almost certainly have been fired when EA bought them.

 

I used to consider Bioware one of my favorite developers. I still have my original boxes from buying BG2/ToB when they were released. I replay BG2ToB with Sword Coast Strategems probably every 6 months when I can find the time. But Bioware is no longer Bioware. They are now just a division of Electronic Arts and we know what kind of soulless, non-gamers who only care about money they are. To them there is no difference between Madden Football 2012 and Dragon Age 2012, and I would have to agree with them.

 

Despite the horribly written, cliched storyline there is just something so enjoyable and even addictive about BG2 combat. In fact I love BG2 so much that I have for years been thinking of attempting to write my own version of BG3 using the GemRB engine perhaps and keeping all of the core elements that made the game so amazing. The only game I can think of with combat that may be somewhat better than BG2 is ToEE with it's incredible implementation of turn-based combat. Bioware's shift to non-strategic popamole, mindless, fast action combat is nothing short of a betrayal of all of their old fans.

Edited September 18, 2012 by metiman

[Thraxen]

You know that insulting people because they like something that you don't isn't really the best way to put your point across, right? The DA games were only brought up to provide examples which can be improved. Regardless, can we try to get back on topic somewhat?

[metiman]

But insulting people because they don't like something that you do is okay? Besides it was not my intention to insult anyone (well except maybe for the Bioware developers responsible for that atrocity known as Dragon Age), but merely to point out the simple facts about the consistently poor game design in Dragon Age 1 and 2. They do not make for good comparisons with this project. Obsidian's aims are the complete opposite of those kinds of modern mainstream pseudo-RPGs that make big publishers drool in greedy anticipation for jumping in huge piles of cash as if they were autumn leaves.

[Thraxen]

Well, not really. They're still party-based RPGs and this topic is all about companion interactions, so they are some of the most contemporary examples that we can look at. Granted, they aren't amazing games (especially 2), but to ignore them completely and not even try to learn from what they did wrong just seems a little stubborn.

[Nakia]

I loved the companions in the Baldur Gate series, their interaction with each other and the PC was memorable. Each character came alive and make the game so much fun. They should be voiced.

 

I agree with the OP. To make a character great depth is needed.

[metiman]

Were people referring to DA1/2 as examples of what not to do? I dont' think so. It seemed as if they were being held up as examples of how to do companions right. But the only thing that Dragon Age did right in terms of design was the character creation. Best I've ever used in any game. I was able to create a female character with a face that was actually pretty. Genuinely beautiful. That is a real achievement. Albeit a purely technical one and something that does not make all the mindless popamole trash mob killing 24/7 any more enjoyable. I guess it's mainly good for coming up with interesting faces and importing them into BG2.

 

It also seems to imply that there was nothing worth emulating in any of the IE games that this project is attempting to reproduce. Games like PS:T for instance. Why not discuss the companion interactions in that? That's something actually worth studying. Why does it seem like the majority of people in this forum are not even fans of Black Isle games? Many of these people are going to be very disappointed when this game is released and it does not resemble Bioware games in any way. Obsidian is not Bioware. As much as some of you might like them to be they are not. Black Isle had very little influence on BG1/2. I can only hope that some of the strategic combat elements in BG2 can be learned from, but you should expect something more like IWD and PS:T than BG2 since, again, they are not Bioware and had almost nothing to do with the design of any of their games.

[Thraxen]

If you want to make a topic about how Bioware can't make games and Eternity should be as unlike them as possible, why not do that. Meanwhile, can we get back on topic here?

[Gurkog]

Around here, there is not much love for the companions in Fallout 2. I really liked them and only a few of them had voice actors. They weren't terribly fleshed out, but had some banter, personality, and they all felt sort of unique and real.

 

EDIT: just don't expect anyone in your party to survive if Marcus is behind them wielding a big gun!

Edited September 18, 2012 by Gurkog

[Thraxen]

Around here, there is not much love for the companions in Fallout 2. I really liked them and only a few of them had voice actors. They weren't terribly fleshed out, but had some banter, personality, and they all felt sort of unique and real.

 

EDIT: just don't expect anyone in your party to survive if Marcus is behind them wielding a big gun!

 

If I remember correctly, most of them had about two or three lines of backstory, but they occasionally commented on stuff around you when you brought them along. The combat dialogue was pretty funny too.

 

It's just a shame that so many of them had unfinished storylines. Sulik never found his sister, Goris couldn't save the V13 Deathclaws.

[Chaz]

 

Full voice over is a major drain on resources, and quite frankly unnecessary.

 

 

I'm sorry pal, but where did I say this game needs to have full voice over? The only thing I pointed out is that some of the best Obsidian Characters were voice acted. I don't know how do you go from that to "every single dialogue in the game needs to be voiced". Where do you make the connection? sigh

[Astanas]

That's one of the things I hated about Dragen Age 2. You can be the biggest ****, commit as many crimes as you want, but still - everyone will either love you or hate-love you. There is no way to lose a party member unless you specifically tell the game to sell him into slavery or whatever.

One of the points where I thought DA2 wasted a lot of potential was the final 'Rivalry' encounter with Aveline, a companion who has become the city's guard-captain over the years. It quickly escalates into a heated discussion and you can even mock her, causing her to violently beat up your player character - and that's it. Nothing happens afterwards. She stays with you no matter what, will aid you at the end and will act like nothing happened. Not even a temporary break-up or anything.

[SirPetrakus]

The thing that I expect most from my companions is for them to be memorable. Getting into the old Gothic games, I remember fondly every time I went into a quest with Diego and the lot. They weren't particularly fleshed out and of course that is a serious drawback, but you went through enough adventures together and they all stuck with you to the end. Typical and possibly shallow bromance, but it helps. I could say the same thing about Morte in PS:T, Garrus in ME, Minsc in BG and Alistair in DA:O, although they were far more fleshed out. Unfortunately, not that many in F:NV and I'm guessing that's because, well, I could only carry one party member with me at a time, so there wasn't enough time to bond and I mostly focused on who complemented my PC best combat-wise.

 

On the other hand, a couple of unique and interesting characters like Kreia, best character in an RPG ever, would also be nice. Or ones that include an interesting arc around them, like Dak'kon. The Circle of Zerthimon arc is one of my favorites. I would also like to see my party members interact between them, especially if there's going to be some sort of conflict between them and a resolution that could end with them dead, alive or only one of them surviving. Because strong personalities will always colide and people do have differences, sometimes.

 

Not to be taken to Battle Royal levels, though. Something like what a certain company seemed to promise about a certain sequel to their sci-fi TPS/RPG, but eventually didn't deliver. I was really looking forward to seeing a certain psychotic biotic tear an information broker to shreds or that opposing factor's lead female operative. *sigh*

 

Friendly, funny banter between the NPCs is always nice too. Also would this be the best place to ask for animated portraits for the NPCs? Static ones are fine, but I remember being surprised and excited when I first saw my party's character portraits in M&M6 move. I would love to see them make a return here.

[alphyna]

1. The most important thing about companions is probably their ability to express themselves. A lot of people here talk about "depth", but what exactly is depth? Is having a childhood trauma deep? No. Is having a tragic biography deep? No. Is having a strong, but complex set of views, which cannot be summarized in one sentence, deep? Well, perhaps it is, but without the execution they are nothing.

 

One of my favourite characters ever is Dak'kon. I would like to point out, though, that both his story and his personality are actually quite simple (spoilers ahead!): he is stoic, he is exhiled, he was tricked into slavery which he hates. Thus he is now sad. When retold like this, he actually sounds cliche, I think.

 

But it's not about the story, it's about the execution, about how we come to know him. There are no rants, no precise moments which define his personality. You have to guess what's imporant based on circumstantial evidnce, so to speak. He doesn't really tell you that spiritual and philosophical debate is important for him, but that's the way of upgrading his stats, so it's not that hard to guess. So: execution. A good companion resembles a real person. Do real people start ranting about their worldview the moment they meet you? If the answer's yes, then they are either nuts, stupid or really traumatized. Which is all perfectly fine, as long as it doesn't mix, and more "normal" characters remain, well, normal.

 

2. Actually, on the topic of leaving the party: I loved DA2's rivalry. I see the point of those who felt differently, but, once again, I measure characters by real-life standarts. Imagine you have a friend. You are bound to him either by a mutual quest or simply by common experience. And then you notice that his worldview differs from yours. Do you leave him and storm away indignantly? Well, that can happen, yes, but the circumstances have to be extreme. And I mean really extreme. Murdering someone in the world where murder is accepted isn't really that extreme. Banishing their only childhood friend whom they love dearly from thr realm probably is.

 

I also hate it when leaving the party is the main means of expressing the character's negative attitude towards you. The best thing about PS:T? Characters talked. Talking is great, really. It's interesting. You thing I've done something despicable? Tell me about it! I may feel guilt, I may change my mind, I may understand the world better. Storming off sucks when compared to talking.

 

3. Inter-companion interaction. What I'd love to see in a game, for example, is a companion being romanced not only by the main character, but also by another companion, so that the main character can lose. Not "let go" and choose someone else, but lose if s/he doesn't try well enough. Not only the main character sould be able to influence those around him; everybody works like that! So just let it work.

 

4. And another thing, which aforementioned Dak'kon is actually a counterexample of. Every companion has a quest and a major problem (or a set of those) which interests him. What I really hate is when said problem comes directly from the character's inherent traits like race, class or upbringing. An elf? Well, the elves are at war with the dwarfs, so he hates them. A mage? Well, then he fights for the freedom of mages. A slave? He hates slavery, duh! That's oversimplification, and that's precisely what robs characters of their depth. What I would really like to see is characters whose quests come from their personality. A well-educated thief who got into trouble while robbing a library, 'cause he couldn't help stopping to read certain rare books. A taciturn dwarf who loves birds and would stop in the middle of the forest to listen to them every now and then. A mage who hides his class 'cause he really likes performing tricks — and he's good at that, but no-one would believe that no magic is involved knowing that he's capable of it.

 

Quirks, habits and personal preferences make a character. If their interests come directly from their background, then that's what they are: a background. So it's not a person with a name and all, it's just a generic elf, mage, slave. And that's really, really boring.

 

(Sorry for the long rant.)

[l3loodangel]

It wasn't the blindly follow you around like games such as dragon age 2 or any jrpg.

 

1. A good party member had depth he wasn't just with you. They had motives of their own be that they were using you the whole time or simply needed your help.

 

2. If they disagreed with something you did they ether left your party or there was repercussions from you doing that.

Ex. (spoilers).

- You slept with the drow chick well romancing aerie in Baldurs gate 2. Well guess what shes no longer a romancing option.

- In dragon age 1 if you had a certain character in your party and defile the ashes they leave your party forever and attack you making you have to kill them.

- Having a evil party member and doing good deeds and vice versa.

3. Having your companions and your self actually be who they are ie they are mortals not gods that can live forever. I am talking about dnd rules on baldurs gate. Where a well placed crit will kill your party member forever.

4. Lively banter between companions.

 

Also if your going to have romancable party member's don't just throw them in. If you want to put in homosexual and lesbian romances don't make it that a female could romance a gay guy and vice versa. It made no sense in dragon age 2.

 

No one wants companions that have down syndrome cant think for them selves and blindly follow you around they just feel like kids/pets following you around with no point of even existing.

 

Also I would love to see weapons based off of old weapons from bg2 and iwd 2 such as the talking sword or the 2 hander of beserking.

Now that I got that out of the way what are my fellow gamers looking forward to in Project Eternity?

 

It's strange how someone defines companions by bioware games. The games that had most memorable companions ware PST, Kotor2 and MOTB. They were with you, but they were not your extension. You could have Ignus and Vhailor in party, but you didn't get to dominate them, they had separate and strong identities and moral compass or lack of it. It was the same with Gaan of dreams and Caelyn the dove. It was the same with Traya and HK 47. If you reference companions, it would be good that you would use the reference from appropriate company. There was not a single sex bot in Obsidian or Black Isle game.

[Sensuki]

If Avellone is writing at least some of the NPCs I'm sure they'll be good.

[alphyna]

Oh, and I've forgotten the most important thing: the companions should have the ability to change. The reason I love Dak'kon so much is probably because TNO changed him, influenced him, and he abandoned the ideas which were prevoiusly absolutely solid for him. That's the most interesting part of communication.

 

(And not on the level of "I hated slavery, but now I'm kinda sorta fine with it"! I want elaboration. I want discussion. I want my companions to be strong and clever, but not rigid. They should listen and they should be interesting to listen to.)

[l3loodangel]

Oh, and I've forgotten the most important thing: the companions should have the ability to change. The reason I love Dak'kon so much is probably because TNO changed him, influenced him, and he abandoned the ideas which were prevoiusly absolutely solid for him. That's the most interesting part of communication.

 

Why? So that it shows how hopeless and meaningless their lives and goals were until they me you? Yes TNO changed Dakkon, in previous life by making him a slave.

[lolaldanee]

Voice Acting, I guess.

 

Characters like Kreia, Ammon Jerro, Boone or Veronica would not have been the same if they weren't voiced.

THIS!

i'm well aware that this is beyond budget but still

voice acting is what made mask of the betrayer so great (alongside that cool scene where you killed myrkul - god damn, to kill a god, how cool is THAT? :D ) this and the fact that there were such great characters

voice acting is what made alpha protocol's characters so believable

voice acting is what made dragon age 1 (and even more so dragon age 2) such great games, it is what made the mass effect games so fantastic

you can't have enough voice acting!