Armour and weapon designs - a plea.

[Amentep]

Now I want deep sea diver armor in the game.

 

I kid, I kid.

 

I would like a game that sticks with things that look more like real functional weapons and not something you'd need superhero strength to wield or if armor to walk or, you know, stand up in.

[Karranthain]

I would like a game that sticks with things that look more like real functional weapons and not something you'd need superhero strength to wield or if armor to walk or, you know, stand up in.

 

 

 

I think it's a good statement of intent from Obsidian.

 

I'm only ambivalent about the sword design (that said, it certainly isn't bad).

 

By the way, I hope whips are in the game!

Edited September 25, 2012 by Karranthain

[Amentep]

Yeah I liked that picture pretty well myself.

[Karranthain]

Yeah I liked that picture pretty well myself.

 

Yeah, the design is very much down to earth.

[Uwon de Toster]

 

I think it's a good statement of intent from Obsidian.

 

I'm only ambivalent about the sword design (that said, it certainly isn't bad).

 

That's what i call believable. It pretty much ends the subject for me.

[Baudolino05]

I would like a game that sticks with things that look more like real functional weapons and not something you'd need superhero strength to wield or if armor to walk or, you know, stand up in.

 

 

 

I think it's a good statement of intent from Obsidian.

 

I'm only ambivalent about the sword design (that said, it certainly isn't bad).

 

By the way, I hope whips are in the game!

 

I like it but it isn't really a typical late meddle-ages european kind of sword. It looks more like a viking sword. Actually I guess it would be pretty ineffective against a plate armor or even a brigandine. In that period western knights used to wield rapiers and bastard swords, or totally different kind of weapons like warhammers or poleaxes...

Edited September 25, 2012 by Baudolino05

[FlintlockJazz]

I apologise in advance for the analness of this post and how I'm going to be bringing real-world stuff to it.

 

One thing that I highly dislike about modern RPGs are the outlandish and outright ugly armour and designs. If you'd allow me some examples (incoming hyperbole and large images) :

And please no gigantic weapons. A simple dagger shouldn't be as long as your arm.

 

Yeah, simplicity is beautiful most of the time.

Good lord, please this! Go with at least a semi-realistic look of things. I remember on thing that stopped me from getting Dragon Age 2 after playing the demo was this ridiculous Anime feel its clothes, armor and oversized weapons had. Please, Obsidian, don't go for 200 pound swords and spiky bikini chainmail armor!

I liked the simple chainmail shirts and coats of neverwinter nights 2 for this very reason, they seemed rugged and eminently sensible for a sellsword. And my anally retentive pet peeve is watching plate mail flex and twist during conversation and melee, not a problem with an isometric game however.

 

Yes yes and yes to all of these!!! I agree fully.

 

I, for one, think we need more DA: O-esque Mage full-length dresses and fabu-hats.

 

Problem?

 

Personally I think we should have pointy wizard hats. People look down on the gandalf hat but it's not really used that much in games (especially for PCs) and is damn awesome. Oh, and I'm being completely serious here, I do actually want this! :D

 

I'd have to agree, the more simplistic the better. To each their own though, lots of variety is a must.

 

I'd like to see more realism here too, nothing crazy like dark souls or anything impossible like that, but weapon swings should feel more heavy if your not used to it. You should walk slower in heavier armor, ect. Needs to happen.

 

Oh, and don't cut armor pieces. Don't take from Bethesda in the sense of armor, keep as many options as possible.

 

One thing to point out here: plate armour was actually lighter to wear than chainmail, and neither required the user to move slowly to wear (fully armoured knights would often chase down lightly armoured bowmen on foot). Plate's distribution of weight actually made it easy to wear compared to chain where all the weight was carried on the shoulders, and if I was to ever create a historically accurate thief character then I would actually prefer to wear bits of light plate instead of leather since it would be lighter per level of protection and make less noise (it doesn't clank like people think, that noise is actually often added in by SFX departments in films due to people's misconceptions of it). No one needed assistance to get on horseback, that's hollywoodism based on a French king who was too fat to get on unaided.

 

The actual problem with plate is heat exhaustion. Wearing a full suit traps the heat, which led to many knights collapsing from heat exhaustion in the middle of winter in snow. Of course, how to simulate real world mechanics of wearing plate may be too hard for most rpgs and alot of people would complain claiming it wasn't 'realistic' not realising that they actually have it backwards.

 

Better question, why have the tradition weapons like sword/dagger/etc and the traditional armors like chain/plate in the usual style at all, and not use weaponry and armor inspired by other sources that we hardly ever get to play with? Sure have weapons and armor, but why the usual ones at this point? We have tons of ancient cultures with all sorts of weapons and armor that may not seem practical against plate or chain armor, but . . . what if there were no plate or chain armor yet in a setting's history? What if armor was much different than we're used to in fantasy RPGs, and weapons for that matter.

 

Functional is one thing but . . . what is functional? It's easy to say, "That armor wouldn't actually protect" when looking at some types of armor, but, they were worn and their people's saw success in combat. You go back far enough and some people went to battle in just plain nothing, and the later more conservative cultures went in to battle in a loincloth to prevent what I like to call the Mr. Floppy effect.

 

I'm just curious if the big guy covered head to toe in plate is really necessary in a fantasy RPG when one of the most famous male fantasy characters, Conan, in some of his most iconic imagery, isn't wearing any such thing. I just got done reading the Black Stranger and it really made me think for a few seconds about just what an RPG character would wear into combat if the setting didn't have the usual Long Sword, Plate, Bow, Chain sort of gear.

 

Actually, using the actual arms and armour a medieval setting would use would be very different from what we actually normally play in. Alot of the armour used is actually from other places or completely fictitious (studded leather for instance), and varied drastically from area to area and time period to time period (full plate wasn't even used until the end of the 14th century for instance despite the common misconception that it was used throughout the middle ages, chain was instead used). If we used proper european gear we would have a vastly different setting already without needing to go abroad.

 

For instance, leather armour would NOT be present: it was not used in Europe to any great degree due to the fact that our animals did not produce good enough hides to make it worthwhile, instead we used padded cloth which was not only cheaper but was actually better than leather! Take a look at padded jacks to see what padded armour really looked like, it was pretty awesome looking and better imho than leather. I'd also like to see the use of kettle hats in a setting, along with halberds and bills (which, contrary to what some people I have spoken to believed, were not only used in mass combat but also used one on one effectively).

 

Yeah, okay I admit it I just want to be able to play Bill the Billman a simple footsoldier driven to adventure by happenstance! :D

 

Again I apologise for the analness and history lectureyness of this post.

[FlintlockJazz]

I like it but it isn't really a typical late meddle-ages european kind of sword. It looks more like a viking sword. Actually I guess it would be pretty ineffective against a plate armor or even a brigandine. In that period western knights used to wield rapiers and bastard swords, or totally different kind of weapons like warhammers or poleaxes...

 

You wouldn't use a sword against plate or brigandine anyway, regardless of type, more a sidearm weapon really. Rapiers were slightly later than that as well, 16th century as opposed to 15th century which is what I think late middle ages are but don't quote me on that, I'm definitely no expert. Longsword would probably fit better there for the late middle ages.

[Baudolino05]

I like it but it isn't really a typical late meddle-ages european kind of sword. It looks more like a viking sword. Actually I guess it would be pretty ineffective against a plate armor or even a brigandine. In that period western knights used to wield rapiers and bastard swords, or totally different kind of weapons like warhammers or poleaxes...

 

You wouldn't use a sword against plate or brigandine anyway, regardless of type, more a sidearm weapon really. Rapiers were slightly later than that as well, 16th century as opposed to 15th century which is what I think late middle ages are but don't quote me on that, I'm definitely no expert. Longsword would probably fit better there for the late middle ages.

 

I don't wanna be immodest, but I'm pretty competent in this matter. I studied medieval warfare and I also had one or two sessions of historical fencing.

Rapiers are definitely late middle-ages weapons. Maybe I'm missing the english word for "stocchi" (sing. stocco), but I guess It's correct calling them rapiers.

Anyway, linguistic diversions apart, "stocchi" and bastard swords were used against plate armor in a very specific way, a technique called "mezzaspada" (half-sword). The technique consists in putting one hand on the hilt and the other hand on the lower part of the blade (that usually isn't sharp), using the sword like a lance and trying to hit the weak spots of the armor (not covered by plates). You need to stay VERY close to your opponent to use this technique, so wearing a good armor is strongly suggested

Edited September 25, 2012 by Baudolino05

[Spess Merhenn]

Realism can be very, very appealing. So can leather armor if done correctly.

I would welcome the armor style of Final Fantasy Tactics over that of an MMO at any rate.

[FlintlockJazz]

I like it but it isn't really a typical late meddle-ages european kind of sword. It looks more like a viking sword. Actually I guess it would be pretty ineffective against a plate armor or even a brigandine. In that period western knights used to wield rapiers and bastard swords, or totally different kind of weapons like warhammers or poleaxes...

 

You wouldn't use a sword against plate or brigandine anyway, regardless of type, more a sidearm weapon really. Rapiers were slightly later than that as well, 16th century as opposed to 15th century which is what I think late middle ages are but don't quote me on that, I'm definitely no expert. Longsword would probably fit better there for the late middle ages.

 

I don't wanna be immodest, but I'm pretty competent in this matter. I studied medieval warfare and I also had one or two sessions of historical fencing.

Rapiers are definitely late middle-ages weapons. Maybe I'm missing the english word for "stocchi" (sing. stocco), but I guess I'm correct calling them rapiers.

Anyway, linguistic diversions apart, "stocchi" and bastard swords were used against plate armor in a very specific way, a technique called "mezzalama" (half-blade). The technique consist in putting one hand on the hilt and the other hand on the lover part of the blade (that usually isn't sharp), using the sword like a lance and trying to hit the weak spots of the armor (not covered by plates).

 

I've heard of half-blading, didn't know it was used for that but makes sense, thanks. From my understanding, most people used swords as backup weapons on the battlefield for when they lost their primary weapons, except for specialised weapons such as the Landsknecht two-handers which were used against pikes I believe, so I'm guessing that if they are being 'authentic' then the guy in the pic may be geared up for fighting more lightly armoured people than you would find on a historical battlefield. I'm pretty certain rapiers were not around until the 16th century, though there may have been an intermediate weapon before then and the 'stocchi' name you use sounds familiar, so yeah we're probably discussing different weapons there.

[Thulean]

I like these examples of Anglo-Saxons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2012 by Thulean

[Stiler]

Fighting against plate armor I'd much rather use a pole axe then a sword. Though there were sword designed for plate armor (IE an estoc) and techniques like the above mentioned half-swording, i'd still think it would be much easier/simpler for a pole axe to take out someone in plate armor. The speed and force of the hit against armor while it might not penetrate it it will still do damage, could crush the armor or lead to concussions/knockouts and things.

 

Speaking of historical combat, I haven't ever really found a game to portray melee combat well at all, or movies for that matter. People have it in their head that when fighting with melee weapons you have this classic Errol Flynn style sword fights, with two guys swinging their swords and blocking with their blades (You would actually want to block a hit with the width of a blade, not the edge).

 

In real melee combat hroughout history, especially in the later middle ages it was so much more complicated. There were a lot of techniques to fighting, and a LOT of them involved grappling. Grappling is something you hardly ever see, but in combat if you can get the other guy down, disarm him, then slide your sword into his visor slit, arm pit, neck, or groin area it's a win.

 

Trips, pulls, throws, all of these things were a huge part of melee fighting, yet in most games/movies they never show a single one, just two guys standing there, swinging their swords and hitting the blades together until one stabs the other.

 

I'd love to see a game that portrays melee combat with more depth and variety, lets your characters actually use grapples, disarms, trips, and other parts of melee combat.

[D3xter]

I like it but it isn't really a typical late meddle-ages european kind of sword. It looks more like a viking sword. Actually I guess it would be pretty ineffective against a plate armor or even a brigandine. In that period western knights used to wield rapiers and bastard swords, or totally different kind of weapons like warhammers or poleaxes...

I'd just like to point out again that this really shouldn't be "typical late middle-ages Europe - The RPG", but "Obisidian's Very Own Fantasy World - The RPG".

A world where magic exists and people/fighters have to contend with it, a world with many beasties of differing sizes and threat ratio trying to kill humans and use them for food, a world in which "gods" apparently not only exist but could walk among the living and there are many varying other races to contend with too, a world in which flint-lock guns apparently exist and can be used against others, a world which doesn't even have to follow earths climate or natural/mineral areas exactly nor have similar technological advances... there could even be armors and weapons imbued by magic or similar which could alter the way they are used, a world in which everyone knows and believes that "souls" move on to another plane with the likelihood of rebirth and have seen it happen, so death doesn't quite have the finality it would carry otherwise.

 

All of this and more should be kept in mind and considered when it comes to culture and gear, not trying to make it as close as possible to the "typical late middle-ages in Europe" with everything that would involve and people already discussing fighting styles...

Edited September 25, 2012 by D3xter

[Baudolino05]

@ FlintlockJazz_ Yeah, the majority of foot soldiers had polearms as primary weapons, but knights kept using swords even in late middle-ages because swords remains useful from a mounted warrior standpoint. Slashing someone while your horse is charging is a complete different matter than doing that standing on your feet.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Baudolino05

[Thulean]

Swords were really rare because of the expense involved. I think most people fought with spears and axes. Hammers and picks would be very effective against plate armor as well though.

[Baudolino05]

I like it but it isn't really a typical late meddle-ages european kind of sword. It looks more like a viking sword. Actually I guess it would be pretty ineffective against a plate armor or even a brigandine. In that period western knights used to wield rapiers and bastard swords, or totally different kind of weapons like warhammers or poleaxes...

I'd just like to point out again that this really shouldn't be "typical late middle-ages Europe - The RPG", but "Obisidian's Very Own Fantasy World - The RPG".

A world where magic exists and people/fighters have to contend with it, a world with many beasties of differing sizes and threat ratio trying to kill humans and use them for food, a world in which "gods" apparently not only exist but could walk among the living and there are many varying other races to contend with too, a world in which flint-lock guns apparently exist and can be used against others, a world which doesn't even have to follow earths climate or natural/mineral areas exactly nor have similar technological advances... there could even be armors and weapons imbued by magic or similar which could alter the way they are used, a world in which everyone knows and believes that "souls" move on to another plane with the likelihood of rebirth and have seen it happen, so death doesn't quite have the finality it would carry otherwise.

 

All of this and more should be kept in mind and considered when it comes to culture and gear, not trying to make it as close as possible to the "typical late middle-ages in Europe" with everything that would involve and people already discussing fighting styles...

 

a world where "most large civilizations are in equivalent of Earth's high or late Middle-Ages".

J.Sawyer.

 

I'm fine with all historical periods. I just want some consistency. As long as this kind of sword is predominant, I would like to see appropriate armors (so no plates around).

 

 

Fighting against plate armor I'd much rather use a pole axe then a sword. Though there were sword designed for plate armor (IE an estoc) and techniques like the above mentioned half-swording, i'd still think it would be much easier/simpler for a pole axe to take out someone in plate armor. The speed and force of the hit against armor while it might not penetrate it it will still do damage, could crush the armor or lead to concussions/knockouts and things.

 

Correct, but swords remained good weapons for knights. See my previous post.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Baudolino05

[Boretti]

as far as I've seen they are going for the simplistic/realistic armor, mix of chainmails and leather.

I dont like Full plated for heavy armor. (aesthetically) i would love to see something different.

 

Chainmail + leather.

[Baudolino05]

I like these examples of Anglo-Saxons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great stuff. I love it too...

[obyknven]

Other historical "unbelievable" armor.

Traditional Indian spiked armor.

[Baudolino05]

Other historical "unbelievable" armor.

Traditional Indian spiked armor.

 

Hihihi...man, keep going with funny samples . This was an executioner armor. Typical Indian armors in that period were anything like that.

Don't need to be an expert to understand that spikes are a useless weight in battle, and could be a treat for you as for your foe. You can sacrifice a little bit of functionality to look scary, but wearing an armor full of spikes means completely forget about functionality...

Edited September 25, 2012 by Baudolino05

[obyknven]

wearing an armor full of spikes means completely forget about functionality...

look scary

[obyknven]

Do you really want realistic armor?

[FlintlockJazz]

@ FlintlockJazz_ Yeah, the majority of foot soldiers had polearms as primary weapons, but knights kept using swords even in late middle-ages because swords remains useful from a mounted warrior standpoint. Slashing someone while your horse is charging is a complete different matter than doing that standing on your feet.

 

Aye, the sword was a great all round weapon that could be used in most situations which was why it was carried as the perfect sidearm and backup, but I think that on the battlefield the knights' primary weapon was the lance? Though with a good charge on horseback it doesn't really matter to that footsoldier whether you hit him with a lance or sword. :D

[Baudolino05]

@ FlintlockJazz_ Yeah, the majority of foot soldiers had polearms as primary weapons, but knights kept using swords even in late middle-ages because swords remains useful from a mounted warrior standpoint. Slashing someone while your horse is charging is a complete different matter than doing that standing on your feet.

 

Aye, the sword was a great all round weapon that could be used in most situations which was why it was carried as the perfect sidearm and backup, but I think that on the battlefield the knights' primary weapon was the lance? Though with a good charge on horseback it doesn't really matter to that footsoldier whether you hit him with a lance or sword. :D

 

yes, it was. But usually a lance broke after the first charge.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Baudolino05