Magic in a mature setting

[Giantevilhead]

There is nothing wrong with cheap powerful magic. The idea of undisciplined people having access to lots of power can be dealt with in a very deep and mature way. It's been dealt with very well in stories like the Twilight Zone episode "It's a Good Life," Kingdom Come, various X-Men stories about mutants with uncontrollable powers, the Spiderweb Software series Geneforge, etc.

[Delterius]

There is nothing wrong with cheap powerful magic. The idea of undisciplined people having access to lots of power can be dealt with in a very deep and mature way.

 

Well, I can't see that not messing class balance. Unless every class is a magic-user (which is a pretty interesting idea).

[DarthAdamRG]

I really like this idea, but realistically im unsure if it would work in the game, however it could have a visual effect on your character, looking back to maze from fable or thinking about Teclis from Warhammer, maybe that could bring a more mature feel to the magic in the world.

[Wintersong]

Well, I can't see that not messing class balance. Unless every class is a magic-user (which is a pretty interesting idea).

Considering that magic is tied to soul, that everybody has soul and that the PC and companions have strong souls (or something like that), it'd not surprise me if no matter the class all of them have access to some kind of "magic perks".

[Continuity]

Considering they've mentioned souls as the power for magic, they might be going with a vancian system, only every caster plays like a third edition sorcerer. That would solve the problem of memorizing combat/non combat spells, but still give you a limit to how many spells you can use each day. Combine this with some way to limit resting and I would be satisfied.

[Delterius]

Considering they've mentioned souls as the power for magic, they might be going with a vancian system, only every caster plays like a third edition sorcerer. That would solve the problem of memorizing combat/non combat spells, but still give you a limit to how many spells you can use each day. Combine this with some way to limit resting and I would be satisfied.

 

If the game is centered around combat, then your casters are going to center themselves around it too - this includes the Sorcerer. What causes your issue isn't really the Vancian system.

[JWestfall]

It may be interesting to have a form of very powerful and rare magic ("High/Forbidden/Dark") that is balanced by hefty consequence. Such as mandatory sacrifice (of a companion, magic items), permanent (or semi-permanent) penalty, or having certain factions/companions react hostily. Something like this would likely need to be written into the story, not just as a general mechanic.

 

Another idea would be adding a risk vs. reward system to magic, such as empowering spells with a chance of backfire.

 

In general I like my magic flavored with mystery, unpredicability, and a sense of meddling with dangerous powers not meant for the weak of will.

[Darji]

Since the magic seems to be bound on the peoples souls it should reflect their personality. So if someone is very evil and want to destroy the world etc. He should have destruction magic. If someone really cares for people and want to protect them he should have some support magic, buff or healing magic.

 

That is just easy examples but I think you get what I mean^^

[DAWUSS]

I wish they would skip magic altogether. Why would anyone wear armour, ride horses, build machines, grow crops, hunt animals, even walk up stairs, if we had magic? Why not just cast a spell and get it over with? Why invent matches if you have magic? Why fight with weapons if someone can wave his hand and kill ten people? Just read some words from a piece of paper and suddenly you have the ability to fly or destroy mountains or breathe underwater.. and nothing ever needs an explanation, at least not a logical one, because it's magic!!!

 

The whole idea of magic is just so stupid.

 

/vent

 

I think most series tend to have limitations on what magic can do to avoid that dilemma. That said, I wouldn't mind some no-magic fictional medieval settings.

[AW8]

What is happening in these peoples lives for the last 10 to 20 years? Rock and Roll, civil rights, anti war counter cultures, environmentalism, terrorism, financial collapse? There are too many ancient prophesies in games where people worry about what happened 1000 years ago.

Agreed.

[dlux]

Seeing that this game is going to be rated R...

 

 

Awesome Magiks, inspired by BioWare.

[Giantevilhead]

There is nothing wrong with cheap powerful magic. The idea of undisciplined people having access to lots of power can be dealt with in a very deep and mature way.

 

Well, I can't see that not messing class balance. Unless every class is a magic-user (which is a pretty interesting idea).

 

But who said that every class has to be balanced? This isn't an MMORPG, there's not going to be competition between different players. I don't see anything wrong with different classes giving vastly different gaming experiences.

[Blablachar]

I like the generall idea of the first post, I would even go one step further.

 

Let the magic be divided into few (or several) schools that sometimes don't come together- for example, white magic user is able to learn spells from few different schools, but not the black magic because it's a natural contradiction.

 

To make it more interesting, let higher level spells harder to obtain (maybe a little similar to Ultima series)- one would have to find a particular npc in order to learn a spell, make a pact with a demon (for a price- let's say, you have to sacrifice vitality points or stamina), carry out some rituals and kill innocents (black magic stuff), loosing sanity and things like that.

 

Also, nothing wrong with the magic being powerfull, but let it come with some restrictions- want the powerfull lighting strike? Ok, but you have to be in the open area, so no use for it in houses and dungeons.

 

I'm also not a fan of all kind of ressurection spells- it easily brings a lot of logical issues to the game world.

[1varangian]

 

Firstly, you're wrong. Vancian systems do not encourage the use of combat only spells. 'Search and Destroy' RPGs do. If you play a good pen and paper and all you've got is Fireballs, you're missing out on so much - friends don't let friends specialize in Evocation.

 

Secondly, sacrificing overall versatility for practical versatility is called spontaneous spellcasting and it exists within a Vancian spell system.

 

And you... can't... decide how it works? What?

PnP is quite different from a computer game with its limitations however. CRPG's tend to be a lot more combat oriented than most PnP games and utility spells like teleport and scrying are much harder to implement in a CPRG.

 

Vancian casting means memorizing spells in slots, spontaneous casting is a much later addition. I don't like it if a game has 4 different ways of casting magic but I can understand how some would. I prefer a system where you have magic and one way to channel it instead of multiple systems within a system. A mage is a mage.. wizard / sorcerer / warlock is just needlessly complicated. There could be specialization options within the mage to make them play differently.

[1varangian]

How would 20% of society being able to cast a knock or light spell change that world?

 

How would 20% of society being bakers change that world? Being a baker would be the most mundane thing imaginable.

 

Magic by definition should be the opposite of mundane.

 

I really hope mages will be rare and controversial.

[Shadenuat]

You explain magic too much and it cease to be magic, you explain it too little and it does't make sense. Tales of Earthsea's magic was the only one I truly believed in in the context of the world, and whole books were about magic, mages and their place in the world.

I really wonder what kind of world Eternity would end up. D&D actually *can* have a feeling of magic being special, if it's a down-to-earth low-level D&D, where +1 sword with special quest and backstory is the best you could find, but somehow I doubt Eternity would be that sort of setting.

 

We have some "souls" thing happening, so maybe what do you do with your spells not only is affected by your soul, but your soul gets affected by what you do?

Edited September 17, 2012 by Shadenuat

[Lady Evenstar]

What I dislike about magic systems is how mages/wizards reach high levels of power too fast. Yeah, ok, they are heroes but still... I'd suppose that someone specialized in just swinging his sword should peak in power a lot faster than a magic user, who should require more decades to master a power that can basically alter the reality (anti-matter fireballs, gravity alterating leveitation spells, brain chemistry alterating charm spells,...) with all the risks about learning the spells (without killing themselves in the process) and despite some possible formal training to reduce "accidents".

 

Certainly in D&D a young warrior has a much easier time than a 1D4 wizard trying to decide when to cast his once-a-day Magic Missile. That said, your suggestion that warriors should peak in power earlier than wizards means that wizards would continue to grow stronger after other classes have peaked. That doesn't sound to me like much fun for the players who get to watch wizards continue to grow stronger while their swordswinger runs in place.

 

I also think that if you assign wizards major limitations not shared by other classes, you need to make them significantly more powerful than characters of those classes. If a wizard get less armor, has to memorize spells in advance (please, no), and places his soul at risk when he uses his abilities, he needs to be compensated by being made significantly more powerful. Personally, I'd rather heap fewer disadvantages on the wizard, but allow other classes comparable power.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Lady Evenstar

[Tagaziel]

A mature approach to magic would also take into account the effect it has on society.

 

Take Illusion or Invisibility spells for example. How about a subplot about a wizard-burglar, who uses invisibility and charm spells to burglarize people? Or a small group of conmen that trade illusory gold and jewelry for services and coin? Or maybe take into account the economy: if magic is powerful enough to transform matter, why not have legal prohibitions in place to limit trade in counterfeit copies or magical copies?

 

Mature Magic isn't just about exploding limbs and buckets of blood splashed around. Although it's quite fun.

[1varangian]

Magic definitely has to make sense in the world. If mages can control minds, turn invisible and perform all kinds of suspicious deeds they would be met with general distrust.

 

Free healing is another thing. If magic can heal wounds and cure sickness, disease and injury are much less significant. If healing was about transferring life force instead of creating it, it would create much more interesting scenarios dealing with altruism and selfishness... healing being demanded of mages without necessarily understanding it hurts them.

[Delterius]

Firstly, you're wrong. Vancian systems do not encourage the use of combat only spells. 'Search and Destroy' RPGs do. If you play a good pen and paper and all you've got is Fireballs, you're missing out on so much - friends don't let friends specialize in Evocation.

 

Secondly, sacrificing overall versatility for practical versatility is called spontaneous spellcasting and it exists within a Vancian spell system.

 

And you... can't... decide how it works? What?

PnP is quite different from a computer game with its limitations however. CRPG's tend to be a lot more combat oriented than most PnP games and utility spells like teleport and scrying are much harder to implement in a CPRG.

 

Vancian casting means memorizing spells in slots, spontaneous casting is a much later addition. I don't like it if a game has 4 different ways of casting magic but I can understand how some would. I prefer a system where you have magic and one way to channel it instead of multiple systems within a system. A mage is a mage.. wizard / sorcerer / warlock is just needlessly complicated. There could be specialization options within the mage to make them play differently.

 

Calling for a mana system won't change anything if the game is combat centric in the first place. So, true, CRPGs are most often about 'Search and Destroy' roleplaying, but that's not a reason to oppose the Vancian system at all.

 

Also: fan made mod for Baldur's Gate and Arcanum implemented Teleportation. I think PS:T did it too, but I'm not sure.

 

I disagree that multiple systems is bad. I played all those classes, I had fun with all those classes and not only does that seem as a core experience of the IE experience (character creation) but I don't believe good dilemmas are a needless complication.

[Ancoron]

What would be if magic was a kind of "disease" that corrupts the soul of a person and the only way to stop/slow

the corruption is to use magic every few hours or so.

 

But throug the progress of the disease you are able to use more powerfull spells and feats. So it becomes kind of moraly

question if you let yourself be corruptet for power or if you let yourself become corrupte to save a loved on.

 

Don`t really know what sould be the negative aspects of the corruption.

[Enoch]

The appeal of magic in a medieval-type setting is that it captures something of the wonder with which pre-scientific peoples viewed the world. Everything was a little bit mysterious, and they came up with what we would now call "supernatural" explanations to resolve a lot of those mysteries. It's fun to imagine being in that situation and some of those supernatural explanations being actually true.

 

But my core appeal would be this: Preserve the Mystery. Magic is interesting because it is unknown to the audience playing the game. Keep it like that. Sure, sketch out the general flavor of what each type of spellcaster can accomplish, and give us detailed descriptions on those lower-level abilities that would be common knowledge in the gameworld. One of the worst things about D&D RPGs is how intimately everybody knows all the details about what all the spells do, how powerful you have to be to cast them, etc., etc. (And, in turn, the way that Torment bucked that trend and went with mostly-custom spells was one of the things I loved about that game.)

[1varangian]

Calling for a mana system won't change anything if the game is combat centric in the first place. So, true, CRPGs are most often about 'Search and Destroy' roleplaying, but that's not a reason to oppose the Vancian system at all.

 

Also: fan made mod for Baldur's Gate and Arcanum implemented Teleportation. I think PS:T did it too, but I'm not sure.

 

I disagree that multiple systems is bad. I played all those classes, I had fun with all those classes and not only does that seem as a core experience of the IE experience (character creation) but I don't believe good dilemmas are a needless complication.

 

Perhaps Eternity will have a stronger focus on non-combat magic? In that case I wouldn't want to see constant camping and resting for 8 hours just to memorize a Knock or Detect Traps.

 

I don't like the Vancian system mainly because Vancian casters simply aren't as cool as ones who don't forget their spells on a regular basis. I also like the concept of specialized spellcasters.. say a Fire Elementalist. A situation where a Fire Elementalist has "run out" of fire spells but still has enough power to cast Shield and Resist Elements doesn't make sense to me.

 

I don't want a mana system either.. I'd like a system where Mages pay for power directly with their stamina and once that runs out, their health or life force. So every spell cast would tire the caster and incur cumulative penalties or even damage their health. To make you actually think when to use magic and when to stick with a weapon.

Edited September 17, 2012 by 1varangian

[Delterius]

In that case I wouldn't want to see constant camping and resting for 8 hours just to memorize a Knock or Detect Traps.

 

A game like Baldur's Gate was actually designed around limited resting and you can totally go through entire adventures without sleeping at all. Unfortunately, what consequences it offered for inconsequential resting were not enough. If you play a D&D game without rest spaming, the whole game improves, otherwise its kinda mediocre.

 

You do realize a stamina bar might just be called mana? Its another spell point system, which incurs the danger of too abundant resources limited by the poor cooldown mechanic. A real twist would be if you casted directly from hitpoints from the start, and then I'd reserve my own judgement.

[Meshugger]

The appeal of magic in a medieval-type setting is that it captures something of the wonder with which pre-scientific peoples viewed the world. Everything was a little bit mysterious, and they came up with what we would now call "supernatural" explanations to resolve a lot of those mysteries. It's fun to imagine being in that situation and some of those supernatural explanations being actually true.

 

But my core appeal would be this: Preserve the Mystery. Magic is interesting because it is unknown to the audience playing the game. Keep it like that. Sure, sketch out the general flavor of what each type of spellcaster can accomplish, and give us detailed descriptions on those lower-level abilities that would be common knowledge in the gameworld. One of the worst things about D&D RPGs is how intimately everybody knows all the details about what all the spells do, how powerful you have to be to cast them, etc., etc. (And, in turn, the way that Torment bucked that trend and went with mostly-custom spells was one of the things I loved about that game.)

 

Pretty much what I meant to type upon reading this thread. Another example: A song of Ice and Fire-series. Magic exists to a certain degree, but it still so mysterious that very few have experienced it, and even less have any profeciancy in it.