Eagle Scouts returning medals

[Hurlshort]

I was pretty sad about the Boy Scouts recent decision to adopt a policy of open discrimination, and it looks like I'm not the only one:

 

http://news.yahoo.co...-184508093.html

 

I was a Webelo and I think I even received the Arrow of Light, which is basically the graduation from the cub scouts. Sadly, I can't imagine having my son take part in the cub or boy scouts with this type of policy in place. I expect the Boys and Girls Clubs of America, who openly oppose discrimination, will be gaining quite a few new members in the near future.

 

edit: Original source is better:

 

http://boingboing.net/2012/07/25/more-men-join-the-ranks-of-for.html

Edited July 25, 2012 by Hurlshot

[Malcador]

Wonder how many have returned their medals, article's not clear on that.

[Gfted1]

You are aware that this case was settled 12 years ago? I dont see a mass exodus happening anytime soon.

[Hurlshort]

You are aware that this case was settled 12 years ago? I dont see a mass exodus happening anytime soon.

 

First off, this isn't a legal issue, as the organization is free to practice discriminatory policies according to law. This movement isn't challenging that. What it does is challenge the organization itself, who very recently adopted a hardline stance against any gay or lesbian leaders or members. Basically they went from a 'don't ask, don't tell' type policy to a more openly discriminatory one.

 

Also, society is clearly changing, and this type of discrimination is not just being fought by gays and lesbians. This is a lot of negative publicity for BSA, I have a hard time believing it won't hurt their membership down the line. I have quite a few friends who aren't just turning their back on BSA for their children, but jumping to support groups with non-discriminatory policies. Add this to the fact that Eagle Scouts, which are extremely highly regarded, are stating to protest this move, and you've got a very bad situation for BSA.

[Gfted1]

Nothing is different from the same "challenge" 12 years ago. People are free to leave for any reason and if they dont like the rules they should just form the Homosexual Scouts of America istead of trying to force their beliefs on everyone else. Chic-Fil-A is also publicly against homosexuality. Dont like it, dont eat their sammiches. Easy.

[Gorgon]

The gay and lesbian rigths people are free to use the boyscouts for activism purposes as well, it goes both ways.

 

Activism isn't sitting on your hands secure in the knowledge that you have the moral high ground. If you don't actively point out where in society these disciminations occur and attempt influence them you don't get media coverage, and you never get to critical mass were things start to change.

 

What good would the Selma march have been without pictures of racist cops going to town on peaceful protesters.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Gorgon

[Tale]

Nothing is different from the same "challenge" 12 years ago. People are free to leave for any reason and if they dont like the rules they should just form the Homosexual Scouts of America istead of trying to force their beliefs on everyone else. Chic-Fil-A is also publicly against homosexuality. Dont like it, dont eat their sammiches. Easy.

They're also free to return their medals and remove their children from the organization.

 

Which is what they're doing.

[Gfted1]

The gay and lesbian rigths people are free to use the boyscouts for activism purposes as well, it goes both ways.

 

Activism isn't sitting on your hands secure in the knowledge that you have the moral high ground. If you don't actively point out where in society these disciminations occur and attempt influence them you don't get media coverage, and you never get to critical mass were things start to change.

 

What good would the Selma march have been without pictures of racist cops going to town on peaceful protesters.

 

This battle has already been fought to the highest level and lost. There is no further recourse unless the BSA themselves change the rules and they have recently reviewed those rules (since this scout master presented them with some sort of signature sheet) and reaffirmed their stance on the matter.

 

They're also free to return their medals and remove their children from the organization.

 

Which is what they're doing.

 

Um, yes?

[Malcador]

Heh, this is going places.

[Guard Dog]

No smoke here...

[Gorgon]

The gay and lesbian rigths people are free to use the boyscouts for activism purposes as well, it goes both ways.

 

Activism isn't sitting on your hands secure in the knowledge that you have the moral high ground. If you don't actively point out where in society these disciminations occur and attempt influence them you don't get media coverage, and you never get to critical mass were things start to change.

 

What good would the Selma march have been without pictures of racist cops going to town on peaceful protesters.

 

This battle has already been fought to the highest level and lost. There is no further recourse unless the BSA themselves change the rules and they have recently reviewed those rules (since this scout master presented them with some sort of signature sheet) and reaffirmed their stance on the matter.

 

 

You don't get it, the activists can win both by getting the BSA to change their policy and by making them look like a biggoted organisation. They have momentum in several sattelite wars. This is just one possible Tet Offensive if you will.

[Gfted1]

What you dont seem to get is that they have looked like a biggoted organization since 1910, and again in 2000 when the Supreme Court upheld their rights as a private organization, and again today. They dont care. Private organization get to make the rules and everyone that doesnt like it is free to make their own private organization with whatever rules they like. Lifes a bitch, everyone doesnt have to accept everyone.

[Hurlshort]

What you aren't getting is that looking like a bigoted organization in today's world is different than it was in 1910, it's even different than it was in 2000. With the way information travels, with outlets like change.org, you've got tremendous pressure being put on organizations to change, much more pressure than in the past.

[Orogun01]

What you aren't getting is that looking like a bigoted organization in today's world is different than it was in 1910, it's even different than it was in 2000. With the way information travels, with outlets like change.org, you've got tremendous pressure being put on organizations to change, much more pressure than in the past.

What everyone seems to be missing is that the homosexual community is still a minority and the boy scout face enough homophobia even without allowing homosexuals in. I mean that every joke that has ever been made on the media about the boy scouts as a "gay" experience has painted a picture in the public. So they have to choose between the few parents that aren't homophobic or that are homosexual and the grand majority that believes that gay is a sin.

Is just a matter of them securing their customer base.

[Hurlshort]

You really think the grand majority still see homosexuality as a sin? Even if that is true, do you think that all of those people are oing to yank their kids out of Boy Scouts for having a non-discrimination policy? I can almost guarantee they are losing more people with this policy than they are keeping.

 

A lot of people like to point to some of the recent elections where gay marriage has been struck down by majority votes. In California, you had 5.5 million people vote for Prop 8, which was against gay marriage. But I like to remember that 4.5 million people voted against prop 8. That is a very large group voting against discrimination.

[Guard Dog]

I don't know about that one Hurlie. If I had a kid in Boy Scouts I would not yank him out over their discrimination practices even though I do think they are a little dumb. If he was enjoying himself and getting a benefit from the experience I would not take it away from him just because they would not allow gays. Unless he was gay then I'd tell him too bad, pick another activity.

 

The funny thing is if they discriminated on the basis of race I think I would have a problem with that. Go figure. I guess I just don't see gays as really being discriminated against.

 

Really, if you have two adult white males, one is homo, the other is hetro then they can both vote, both join the military, both live where they want, go into any store or restaurant they want, go into any kind of business they want, get any kind of job they want and marry anyone they want. (Even if the legal arrangements are slightly different the end result is exactly the same). When you get right down to it the only difference between them is who-sticks-what-where in the sack. So the way I see it being gay is no different than preferring tea over coffee.

 

Just my $.02

[ShadySands]

Don't they also have a policy against atheists and agnostics? Even though I don't think it's right for them to discriminate against gays if they are a private organization then I guess that is their right.

[Oblarg]

 

The funny thing is if they discriminated on the basis of race I think I would have a problem with that. Go figure. I guess I just don't see gays as really being discriminated against.

 

 

And this really is simply an inaccuracy in your worldview. This is no different than an organization refusing to admit black members, just as gay marriage is really no different than a state refusing to allow interracial marriage. The sooner people see this, the sooner we can move forward as a society.

[Orogun01]

You really think the grand majority still see homosexuality as a sin? Even if that is true, do you think that all of those people are oing to yank their kids out of Boy Scouts for having a non-discrimination policy? I can almost guarantee they are losing more people with this policy than they are keeping.

 

A lot of people like to point to some of the recent elections where gay marriage has been struck down by majority votes. In California, you had 5.5 million people vote for Prop 8, which was against gay marriage. But I like to remember that 4.5 million people voted against prop 8. That is a very large group voting against discrimination.

It's the United States, we have something called the "Bible Belt" and while not all religious men are fanatically blind to the point of fault, we still contend with quite a large sector that's more "conservative".

What they boy scouts are doing doesn't seem rational but fear is often not.

[Gorgon]

Maybe gay and lesbian rigths will go the way of the feminists, as in you won, give it a rest already. We aren't quite there yet though.

[Calax]

The question for me is how much this'll actually effect the troops. From my experiance, it appears that the troops don't have that much upper level control exerted on them (that is the head scout master doesn't have somebody who comes down on him if things aren't done just right). And the higher levels of BSA have barely anything to do with the boys in general beyond making sure that certain camps are kept active.

 

I will say that one of the things that Hurl's trying to point out is entirely true. With the changing social norms, and the level of social interaction through social media, one of the primary reasons to even join the BSA is gone (communication between kids). It was a place where groups of similar interests could get together and have fun (assuming you picked the right troop), and now you don't need that as much because a guy can just post on twitter or facebook "Hey! Going to XXXX anyone wanna join me?" and get an entire party going in five seconds.

 

I think BSA is sort of a "last vestige" thing that's gonna end up dead soon. I mean a few troops will keep going because the parents are good, and the scoutmaster is able to keep a handle on kids. But I've been hearing less and less about the Scouts as I've grown up, and they can't seem to keep up with the times at all. Part of it is also the religious part of the organization, and I suspect that several troops are VERY powerful in their convictions about making sure that everyone displays their religious iconography.

 

I think people would be happier if there was a similar organization to the scouts (at least with the amount of pull they tout... free promotion if you join the MIlitary as an Eagle, hiring officers want you in as an Eagle etc) that wasn't as hidebound and conservative as the scouts are.

 

I'm just going to throw this in there, but When I was a scout, I was terrible at it (earned like two merit badges and never got beyond first class). Mainly because I was there to have fun more than to do "srs Bsns" like a few of my friends. It started out ok, with little pressure to do any more than have fun, but then my ex-friends dad took over as senior scoutmaster and all of a sudden he decided that "I'm going to have the most eagle scouts on the planet!" and the pressure to rank up became immense, and all the fun kinda went out of it.

 

And now that I look back on it, even though I'm more laid back than most of the leaders were, I was probably a better leader than anyone who put themselves up as leader for the crew.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Calax

[Enoch]

I think people would be happier if there was a similar organization to the scouts (at least with the amount of pull they tout... free promotion if you join the MIlitary as an Eagle, hiring officers want you in as an Eagle etc) that wasn't as hidebound and conservative as the scouts are.

 

That "free promotion" thing would make an interesting case. I doubt anyone has made a federal case out of it yet, but I could easily see a non-religious military enlistee having a pretty strong Equal Protection case, in that he wasn't considered for an immediate bump up to E2 that was available to members of an organization that discriminates based on religion. (Although I haven't looked at the actual policy. It's possible that it's phrased in a neutral way-- e.g., the test is something like a demonstrated committment to public service, for which an Eagle badge or a Girl Scout Gold Award would be possible, but non-exclusive, qualifications.)

 

My experience with the Scouts was pretty similar to Calax's. The troop wasn't very well led, and by the time I hit First Class, all the guys who I enjoyed hanging out with had quit. So I followed them.

 

As for adult Eagles returning their badges/medals, I don't see anything wrong with members of an organization lobbying to change that organization's policies. There is a faint scent of hypocrisy, in that the Scouts' policy on gays and atheists has long been quite clear. But in many cases, a boy's participation in Scouting was more a parental decision than the boy's own, and I don't think that decisions that a guy made when he was 15 can be credibly used to undermine his political and moral views as an adult. Plus, many of these medals were earned well before gay rights was in the mainstream of political discussion in the U.S.

[Calax]

Well, from my short time at boot camp, it seems if you don't make E2 by the time that you're out of boot, you're doing somethin wrong. That said, I think the Eagle has more effect on officer promotions, which is certainly something to look at more worrisomly.

[Nepenthe]

I think scouting has a different level of relevance if you live in a country with a conscript army. I slept my first night in a tent during boot camp (coincidentally, also my last one, but that's another story).

 

As long as we have that burden, any male child of mine will be a scout.

[Guard Dog]

Well, from my short time at boot camp, it seems if you don't make E2 by the time that you're out of boot, you're doing something wrong. That said, I think the Eagle has more effect on officer promotions, which is certainly something to look at more worrisomly.

 

Getting promotions for non-service activities depends entirely on the branch of service you are in. In the USMC it just did not happen. If you could see lightning and hear thunder and stayed out of trouble you got PFC (E2) after 6 months but unless you got it meritoriously you had to do the six months.

 

I don't think any service takes scouting into consideration at all. Nor should they. It is not a military activity. If they do they should stop because Enoch has a point and the military takes great pains to be a bastion of equal opportunity.