HBO's Game of Thrones pt 2

[Gorgon]

My main gripes ; too many kids and too much jhon snow.other than that i'm just glad to have a fantasy show with a big budget no less that isn't completely hopeless.

[Volourn]

This idea that F&I is about shades of gray is funny since it is obvious both from the tv show and book spoilers that there are clearly good characters and evil character. The point the story is making though that even good people can do bad things and evn evil people can do good ie Cersei and her love for her children. Anyone who thinks Jon Snow is anything but good or Tywin is anything but evil just aren't paying attention. There is no grey there. A character like Tyrion can be tricky except not on tv show - while he does 'bad' things he's clearly meant to be a good cheerable guy.

[Valsuelm]

This idea that F&I is about shades of gray is funny since it is obvious both from the tv show and book spoilers that there are clearly good characters and evil character. The point the story is making though that even good people can do bad things and evn evil people can do good ie Cersei and her love for her children. Anyone who thinks Jon Snow is anything but good or Tywin is anything but evil just aren't paying attention. There is no grey there. A character like Tyrion can be tricky except not on tv show - while he does 'bad' things he's clearly meant to be a good cheerable guy.

 

You managed to watch all four seasons of A Game of Thrones twice and are on your third watch and you think that "Anyone who thinks Jon Snow is anything but good or Tywin is anything but evil just aren't paying attention."???? Do you watch it drugged? Were you only half paying attention? Those are serious questions.

 

Granted, it's more fleshed out in the books but the TV show has still done a good job of demonstrating that Jon Snow isn't the embodiment of an Angel or Tywin the embodiment of a Devil. Far from it really, especially in regards to Tywin. He wouldn't even make my top ten 'bad' (as in evil) characters list from A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Volourn]

Really? What 'evil' has Jon Snow done? Yeah, he's made error of judgment and mistakes but that isn't the same as doing evil.

 

As for Tywin. You are whitewashing his actions. The guy  is self serving to the max. he doesn't care about his childen at all. They are nothing but tools. The difference between him and Cersei says everything in that regard.  He talks about 'family' legacy but he doesn't care abiout that. If he did, he'd recognize Tyrion's true value to the family cause. Let's not forget the mass murders he repeatedly orders. Not to mention the constant rapes. And, don't blame the Mountain alone.   In the very show he orders the mass slaughter, pillaging, and raping of whole villages.  His grandson dies and instead of letting the other grandson mourn he decides to harass him about kingdom. Surely, that is a conversation that could have at least waited a few hours not behing held over Geoffry's corpse (and I loathe Geoffery). Let's not forget his part in the framing of his son. There was no need for that but he is evil and loves power. Power and control is his only desires. I say this even though I like the character and while he  has characteristics that can be admired he is evil.

 

You want an example of a greyish character? Jaime Lannister.

 

Tywin is top 5 evil characters. Just because he's not a psychopath like Geoffory or Ramsay Snow doesn't make gray. If anything, it makes him more diabolical because his evil actions are all planned out even though he knows they are morally reprehensible. But, he doesn't care, because of his own selfish desires.

 

 Anywaysm, while I'll miss the actor, the character got what he deserved -  a throne of crap for a crappy 'king'.

 

Hunger and desire for power and control at the cost of everything and everyone else is the very definition of evil.

[Zoraptor]

How evil Tywin is really depends upon how much you apply modern values or use the ones of the time. Robb Stark's army pillaged, raped etc their way around Lannister country every bit as much as the Lannister's did to the Riverlands- that's expected, and specific outrage at Tywin's conduct is mainly because he is an antagonist rather than protagonist. It's also expected to advance your family as much as possible, within certain social norms. By modern measures Robb Stark would be a war criminal as much as Tywin, in setting, real opprobrium is withheld for those who do truly despicable acts (usually regarded as being extremely dishonourable) and on that basis people like Ramsay, Roose, Gregor and Walder Frey would all be regarded far worse than Tywin, as would Jaime and Cersei if their full relationship were confirmed and they weren't in power. In a modern context Tywin certainly could be described as evil though, and is almost certainly some classification of psychopath. 99% of the time 99% of people wouldn't need to fear him, but that 1% really would; and if he ever got paranoid he'd be Stalin.

 

Jon Snow is a bit of an emo muppet, but most of his muppetry hasn't been shown on TV yet. He is about as close as the series gets to an outright 'good guy' though.

[Volourn]

Never saw Robb Stark ordering  mass slaughter of unarmed civilians or raping of women. In Fact, I saw him giving help to the 'enemy' wounded.  Show me a scene where Robb orders the murder and rape of innocents than I'll call him out for it.

 

Now, I saw soldiers in the Stark army who DID rape. They are evil but as we see in the show Stark isn't all powerful. In fact, one can argue its his 'good' nature that ultimately did him in thoguh you could also argue Robb's choice to break his vow to Frye led to his demise but I don't buy that since Frey is too evil and sick to be trusted hence his reaction to the threat on his wife's life. . Of course, Tywin's cruel and vindicative nature did him in as well.

 

\I get why people feel the need to defend Tywinn. He's an enteraining intriguing character with an excellent actor but let's not pretend he's something he's not.

 

People claim I'm  discussing him through my 'modern' eyes. But, it's just not me who sees it. The characters in the show view him as a 'villain'. Nobody likes him, nobody likes what he does, everybody knows he's a bad guy who will hurt anyone to get what he wants (power). That's the definition of 'evil'. No matter how 'awesome' he is doing it.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Volourn

[Zoraptor]

In the books it's explicitly stated that Robb goes off towards Casterly Rock to attract the Lannister army and they do that by plundering and despoiling the area. It's a medieval army, they don't really need orders to rape and pillage, it comes naturally, and they were given those orders. It's somewhat changed in the TV series of course, but then the TV series is relatively, relatively, disneyfied.

 

'Liking' is irrelevant. In universe Robert and Eddard are the only two lords that really like each other (well, except Loras and Renly, heh heh)- for all the good it got them, the pair of morons. Respect is what counts, what the romans would call gravitas or what Crusader Kings would call prestige. Out of universe the viewers liked Robb, much good it did him and they may have hated Tywin, much good it did him as well but that is because one is written as protagonist, the other as antagonist. You're meant to like Robb and hate Tywin, basically.

 

There's no real defence of Tywin going on, nobody thinks he is 'nice'. He's just not, in universe, evil. In universe most people would probably consider the apostate witchcraft user and human sacrifice purveyor Stannis or the guest right and liege lord betraying and proud of it Walder Frey to be far, far worse, and regard Tywin as being fairly typical in everything except his effectiveness.

[Volourn]

"In the books"

 

Never saw him order any rapes or mass murder of unarmed civilians.  I saw the opposite - him allowing injured soldiers of the nemy to be taken care of and spared. Even his  fellow lords were whining to him that they were running out of room/food cause of all the prisoners they were keeping.

 

Take that and comapre it to Tywin when it gets to the castle where he stops the stupid torture so he can use the prisoners as slavers/servants. And, laters the mass murders, pillaging, and rape of unarmed innocent villagers. Also, he allows the Mountain to practice on prisoners/POW/enemies for ****s and gigles before his big fight. More evidence of his depravity and non concern for others.

 

Stop defending the character just because he's interesting to watch 9which I agree, he's a terrific character). But, he is the very definition of evil.  In and out of the universe.

 

But, at least he's not inappropriately creepy like these guys are:

:D So he has that going for him. L0L

 

He actually was pretty decent towards Arya though. But that doesn't make him non evil.

 

 

You can be evil and have admirable qualities and you can be good and have flaws.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Volourn

[Valsuelm]

You have a cartoony idea of what evil is.

 

There is good and evil in everyone.

[Volourn]

No.

 

Tell me the good in The Mountain.

[Leferd]

Season 5 Trailer

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDb4sJVK2wU

 

Definitely noticing new scenes that are highly divergent from the books.

[Volourn]

"highly divergent from the books."

 

G O O D

[BruceVC]

"highly divergent from the books."

 

G O O D

Why wouldn't you  want the TV series to be like the books? If you had read them you would want the series to be like them because they are just so well written and captivating 

[Leferd]

Considering that many of the storyarcs are now pretty much caught up with the books, we're going to see completely new material.  This also is separate from the butterfly effect that's already taking root from changes they made in earlier seasons.

 

I've got no problem with that. The show and the books are separate animals.

[Barothmuk]

"highly divergent from the books."

 

G O O D

Considering every time they've diverged from the books its been handled horribly, no, not good.

 

Can't say I care too much. I lost interest a few seasons back and only watch the occasional highlight (Red Wedding, Viper/Mountain)

[Volourn]

"Why wouldn't you  want the TV series to be like the books? If you had read them you would want the series to be like them because they are just so well written and captivating"

 

Because the books are still there. If you find them so awesome go read them. Any changes  to the material for tv/movie doesn't change one thing about the book. I, for one, don't mind there being switches. Plus, sometimes the material can be silly - like the ages for GOT characters - even the damn author admits this.  No way does it make sense that 13 year old book Dany can do the things she does. That's just silly.

 

 

"Considering every time they've diverged from the books its been handled horribly, no, not good."

 

No. You. Are. Wrong. Period.

[Valsuelm]

 

"highly divergent from the books."

 

G O O D

Considering every time they've diverged from the books its been handled horribly, no, not good.

 

Can't say I care too much. I lost interest a few seasons back and only watch the occasional highlight (Red Wedding, Viper/Mountain)

 

 

Pretty much agreed.

 

Season 1 was handled very well I thought and there was very little divergence from the books (most dialogue was taken directly from the books word for word) other than the additional sexual scenes (as if there needed to be more as there's plenty in the books, but HBO still added more, and the girl they added in to be Rob's love interest. Season 2 not as well, but it still had some great episodes. Season 3 the divergence from the books was getting bigger and not for the better, Season 4 was downright bad in many episodes (and couple of them I don't think a single line of GRRM's dialogue), and I almost stopped watching.

 

I'm not going to watch Season 5, given that there are bound to be even bigger divergences not for the better as well as spoilers to the books. I don't even want to know how the TV show is going to handle what in many book readers minds is the central mystery to the entire series (and likely the most central underlying plot line, though that remains to be seen for certain) that the TV show has pretty much completely omitted, as well as what I personally think is the secondary biggest mystery and underlying subplot, which has been completely ignored in the show.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Valsuelm

[Volourn]

Some things handled better in the show:

 

1.  Arya and Tywin scenes.

 

2. No Lady Stoneheart (yet).

 

3. Geoffry being way more dispicable and hateful.

 

Plus, being able to have scenes where book plot piint of view characters aren't involved in is a good thing that adds to depth.

 

 

And, that 'central plot' is dumb anyways.

 

TV SHOW > NOVELS

 

Period.

[Valsuelm]

This coming from a guy who hasn't read the novels...

[Volourn]

1. I've read enough spoilers/discussion to know things - ie. the fact that Arya and Tywin never meet or the existence of Stoneheart.

 

2. I am currently reading the novels.

 

3.  Tell  me the 3 points I made are wrong instead of acting silly.

[Valsuelm]

1. I've read enough spoilers/discussion to know things - ie. the fact that Arya and Tywin never meet or the existence of Stoneheart.

 

2. I am currently reading the novels.

 

3.  Tell  me the 3 points I made are wrong instead of acting silly.

 

They are.

 

That you'd even bring them up shows how little you know of the differences between the books and the show. How stupid are you to say the show is better than the books before you've finished reading them. Why bother reading them if you're so convinced the show is better already? Stop the nonsense and/or trolling please.

 

Your three points with spoilers (probably minor for you since you already know of Stoneheart) discussed a bit below:

 

1. The Arya and Tywin scenes make no sense in the context of the books. I understand why they did it in the show, largely for production reasons, and they couldn't fit the whole book into the show (so they omitted some secondary characters or seriously diminished their role and increased the prominence of other characters (in this case Vargo Hoat and Tywin Lannister respectively). These changed scenes are pretty minor compared to some of the other changes they've made (Rob's wife for example). That said, Vargo was a good character (not a good guy, but a good character), it's shame the show didn't have him much but I do understand the production limits.

 

2. It remains to be seen if she'll make an appearance. It's certainly not clear that the TV show has omitted her yet given the point in the story they are at. It also remains to be seen if omitting her from the series is a detriment or not. The TV show hasn't caught up to the part where she plays a pivotal role in the story. I'm sure that will happen in Season 5.

 

3. The actor nailed the part, and the character in the show is pretty much the same character we get in the books.. I certainly didn't think he was any more likable in the books. For the most part, the characters that are in both the TV show and the books remain unchanged in regards to their actual character. One of the things I think the series has generally done very well was cast the parts very well. Most of the actors nail their parts. In fact, the biggest draw for me to even watch the show any more is that some of the actors really are a joy to watch and play their characters well, even if the story is going in a bad way.

 

Edited February 1, 2015 by Valsuelm

[Volourn]

The Arya and Tywin  scenes are awesome and make things better. Period.

 

I've ehard rumours that they are giving the SH  'role' to Sansa. Sounds better than the lame ness of the books which spits in the face of the death mattering.

 

 They changed things. In the books, Geoffry doesn't order the murder of the babies. That's all Cersei.

 

 

"Most of the actors nail their parts. In fact, the biggest draw for me to even watch the show any more is that some of the actors really are a joy to watch and play their characters well, even if the story is going in a bad way."

 

Yup, which is why the show will be better. I just don't believe a 13 year old Dany could do what Dany does. Even 18 year old Dany. Not to mention 14 year old Robb and Jon. Or 11 year old Sansa. RIDICULOUS.

[Valsuelm]

The Arya and Tywin  scenes are awesome and make things better. Period.

 

I've ehard rumours that they are giving the SH  'role' to Sansa. Sounds better than the lame ness of the books which spits in the face of the death mattering.

 

 They changed things. In the books, Geoffry doesn't order the murder of the babies. That's all Cersei.

 

Awesome? That's an overstatement. What's made better? Nothing. Those scenes are really relatively minor and the fact that they are there doesn't change a huge aspect to the story, as some other changes have.

Massively diminishing Vargo Hoat and his band of merry men's role from the story hardly makes things better.

 

 

And ha! at what you think is lameness.

Stoneheart is not the only character in the story for whom this applies. I won't go into details as they are potential super big spoilers, but *major spoiler here, possibly even for you, be warned*

there is at least one other major character that is prominently in the show already that has a similar condition to Stoneheart, it's just not as obvious. As well as another major character very likely on the way in book 6, and a secondary character definitely on the way who has been in the show (I forget if they bring up what's happening to him in Season 4 or not).

 

 

What lead to Stoneheart being Stoneheart is something that is pretty central to the story. The TV show hasn't completely omitted what that is so far, in fact some of it definitely has been in the show already, but it hasn't yet reached the point of the story where it's explained.

 

 

Insofar as Joffrey (this is how you spell it), ordering what he ordered in the show as opposed to Cersei ordering it in the books. I chalked that one up to production, and the need to abridge the story (it's easier and more importantly quicker (takes less screen time) to have Joffrey do it and look like a two dimensional evil nut, than to explain Cersei's reasoning). It certainly doesn't add to Joffrey's character I don't think, and if it does anything it takes away from the depth of Cersei's. Either way it's a relatively minor change like the Arya/Tywin scenes.

 

Yup, which is why the show will be better. I just don't believe a 13 year old Dany could do what Dany does. Even 18 year old Dany. Not to mention 14 year old Robb and Jon. Or 11 year old Sansa. RIDICULOUS.

 

Not really. Quite realistic.

 

Just because you yourself perhaps was incapable of all that or maybe even many of the people you knew were, doesn't mean everyone is. Especially in the context of the times. ie: your average teenager of yesteryear was very arguably capable of a lot more than your average teenager of today (they're too busy playing with electronic toys and living insulated lives). At no point in the books did I ever think, 'Na... someone that age wouldn't possibly do that'. I can easily see a kid doing everything that Arya does, and if there's a character that most who think as you do can't wrap their heads around, it's probably her. Some kids are capable of far far more than many adults will ever give them credit for.

 

I'd actually say in the case of Joffrey, his character is immature for the age given in the TV show (17-19). Granted, in today's age of increasingly extended adolescence where people take longer to mentally mature if they ever do, you'll find some 19 year olds (and even people many years older) exhibiting his petty behavior, but it's far more common and fitting amongst someone younger ie: 13-14 as he is in the books.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Valsuelm

[Marcvs Caesar]

 

Yup, which is why the show will be better. I just don't believe a 13 year old Dany could do what Dany does. Even 18 year old Dany. Not to mention 14 year old Robb and Jon. Or 11 year old Sansa. RIDICULOUS.

 

Not really. Quite realistic.

 

Just because you yourself perhaps was incapable of all that or maybe even many of the people you knew were, doesn't mean everyone is. Especially in the context of the times. ie: your average teenager of yesteryear was very arguably capable of a lot more than your average teenager of today (they're too busy playing with electronic toys and living insulated lives). At no point in the books did I ever think, 'Na... someone that age wouldn't possibly do that'. I can easily see a kid doing everything that Arya does, and if there's a character that most who think as you do can't wrap their heads around, it's probably her. Some kids are capable of far far more than many adults will ever give them credit for.

 

 

It doesn't help that most adults in our current society treat children like idiots and try to isolate them from the real world. If I had children of my own, I would never do that to them.

[Volourn]

"Just because you yourself perhaps was incapable of all that or maybe even many of the people you knew were, doesn't mean everyone is. Especially in the context of the times. ie: your average teenager of yesteryear was very arguably capable of a lot more than your average teenager of today (they're too busy playing with electronic toys and living insulated lives). At no point in the books did I ever think, 'Na... someone that age wouldn't possibly do that'. I can easily see a kid doing everything that Arya does, and if there's a character that most who think as you do can't wrap their heads around, it's probably her. Some kids are capable of far far more than many adults will ever give them credit for."

 

Please. It's not about comparing to me. It's about comapring them to other characters in the books. Even early on, for example, Jon brags about how  he is a betters swordsman than grown men or how Robb is a better horse rider than fully grown adults. It's illogical and chaarcter pimping - even the author   says, if he could, he'd go back and change that kind of styuff with their ages. Sansa is described as one of the most beautiful young women in the world - rivalling Cersei and the like  (even Jon slobbers over his half sister) - at 11. Come on, Even the 13/14 year old she is in the show is silly in the regard even though the actress is now 18. The ages - even in terms of  'middle ages' - is over the top skewed.

 

 

"Awesome? That's an overstatement. What's made better? Nothing. Those scenes are really relatively minor and the fact that they are there doesn't change a huge aspect to the story, as some other changes have."

 

Yes, awesome.  Great acting. It's also important because it explains Tywin better than he is in the books since, in the books, he has no viewpoint. We see him as he is not the skeweed way other characetrs look at him only. That's very important.

 

 

"Either way it's a relatively minor change"

 

It's a pretty major change as no doubt the people who watch the who show who sympathize with cersei (which there are many) wouldn't be so gung ho about that if they saw her ordering the murder of her dead husbands bastard children. In the book, Cersei is a complete psycho while in the show is a loving mother fighting the feminist fight against a patriarchial society. Geoffry (yes, i went there again) is not as over the top comic book evil in the novels either.

 

 

Some things are done better in the book. Some things are done better in the tv show. *shrug*

 

This blanket statement of 'everything in tv show is worse' is silly, juvenile, amateur, and shallow.

 

 

Back to trailer: Can't wait til season starts.