Piracy

[Grimlorn]

So how do you think the people that create the games feel about that?

How do you think gamers feel about paying for a product they don't enjoy and can't return? Especially, with all the marketing and hype surrounding games to get you to impulse buy them. I still remember Casey Hudson saying there wouldn't be a A, B, or C ending for ME3. Look what happened. There's no accountability for lying or half-truths in the gaming industry.

 

@Gorth Just playing devil's advocate. No need for insults.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Gorth]

@Gorth Just playing devil's advocate. No need for insults.

Well, it might have been a good idea to stress that point, because you are being *very* insulting suggesting on a game developer board that people ripping them off is good for the developers. I'm fairly sure the Obsidian guys disagrees with you.

[Grimlorn]

@Gorth Just playing devil's advocate. No need for insults.

Well, it might have been a good idea to stress that point, because you are being *very* insulting suggesting on a game developer board that people ripping them off is good for the developers. I'm fairly sure the Obsidian guys disagrees with you.

Oh I didn't mean that and if Obsidian guys are reading this I apologize. I was just trying to offer a different perspective on the matter. I don't think ripping off the developers is good for them.

[alanschu]

How do you think gamers feel about paying for a product they don't enjoy and can't return? Especially, with all the marketing and hype surrounding games to get you to impulse buy them. I still remember Casey Hudson saying there wouldn't be a A, B, or C ending for ME3. Look what happened. There's no accountability for lying or half-truths in the gaming industry.

 

There is accountability though. There's no need to continue purchasing the games. The thing that gets me is that these same people still pirate them, and then justify it as "sticking it to the man" when all their piracy shows them is that they really DO still want to play the games. A lot of people have said BioWare is no longer a preorder for them as a result. That's exactly what they should do.

 

If you want to boycott someone, boycott them. Don't circumvent your boycott by acquiring said product and then thinking you're being all sneaky and crafty about it by not purchasing it.

 

(Note: Royal you is used. Not you as in Grimlorn)

Edited September 26, 2012 by alanschu

[Hurlshort]

So how do you think the people that create the games feel about that?

How do you think gamers feel about paying for a product they don't enjoy and can't return? Especially, with all the marketing and hype surrounding games to get you to impulse buy them. I still remember Casey Hudson saying there wouldn't be a A, B, or C ending for ME3. Look what happened. There's no accountability for lying or half-truths in the gaming industry.

 

@Gorth Just playing devil's advocate. No need for insults.

 

Welcome to life. You are going to buy a lot of things that you will not be happy with, and you usually won't be able to get your money back.

 

You are also only out $60 here, the developer is losing much more when people pirate their work. Developer's put years of their life into these products, and then they ask you to pay a nominal fee to enjoy it. It's a simple idea. If you want to play it, do the right thing and pay. When you pirate, you disrespect all the work that they've done.

[Grimlorn]

How do you think gamers feel about paying for a product they don't enjoy and can't return? Especially, with all the marketing and hype surrounding games to get you to impulse buy them. I still remember Casey Hudson saying there wouldn't be a A, B, or C ending for ME3. Look what happened. There's no accountability for lying or half-truths in the gaming industry.

 

There is accountability though. There's no need to continue purchasing the games. The thing that gets me is that these same people still pirate them, and then justify it as "sticking it to the man" when all their piracy shows them is that they really DO still want to play the games. A lot of people have said BioWare is no longer a preorder for them as a result. That's exactly what they should do.

 

If you want to boycott someone, boycott them. Don't circumvent your boycott by acquiring said product and then thinking you're being all sneaky and crafty about it by not purchasing it.

 

(Note: Royal you is used. Not you as in Grimlorn)

I agree with you, but I'm not sure about how many people actually boycott just to stick it to the man. I've seen people say that, but I've also seen people say they try the games and if they enjoy it for a few hours they purchase the game (especially if they don't have a demo). I also think there are people who just don't have the money anyway to purchase them and there's no loss there. I guess I'm just more optimistic about people and think the theft percentage wise is on par with theft within society. I also think the game industry exaggerates the problem to justify DRM practices that only hinder paying consumers, as games continue to be pirated anyway, and DRM only cause problems for consumers who paid for the product.

 

Personally, I don't preorder games anymore. I'm still feeling the sting of Fable 1. All that stuff Peter Molyneux promised and hyped up just to get me to purchase his game. Then at the last minute a lot of stuff was cut. A lot of the features that were in the game weren't even good. Makes me upset just thinking about it. Now I wait for user reviews and friends I trust to comment on the games a week after they're released usually. I find it odd people who market games can almost willfully lie to consumers to get them to purchase their products and there isn't any consequences for them. You can't return their games for a full refund or at all. There's just nothing in the gaming industry to protect the consumers.

[Malcador]

So how do you think the people that create the games feel about that?

 

I'm guessing some are apathetic, others are the frothy raging kind. Would be funny if some of them actually WERE Scene members

[Drowsy Emperor]

TPB has never once in its history attempted to remove copyrighted content. half hearted attempts were made by both Mininova and ISOhunt and others concerned with their long term survival. People go there to get illegal ****, and maybe they check out whatever band is being promoted as well. Lets call a spade a spade people.

Since we're calling spades spades...

 

TPB does not have any copyrighted content to remove as they don't host anything bar the torrent information. As such people cannot go there to get illegal asterisks, they can only go there to obtain directions to get (potentially) illegal asterisks. That's why they're still in business.

 

It is good thing to remember that not all TPB's directions lead to illegal asterisks, which might make banning the whole site illegal in itself. At least that's what is currently happening in Finland.

 

If a massage parlor gives legitimate massages, but doesn't stop its therapists from giving a little extra on the side, it can still run the risk of getting shut down.

 

You'd know wouldn't you :D

[Grimlorn]

So how do you think the people that create the games feel about that?

How do you think gamers feel about paying for a product they don't enjoy and can't return? Especially, with all the marketing and hype surrounding games to get you to impulse buy them. I still remember Casey Hudson saying there wouldn't be a A, B, or C ending for ME3. Look what happened. There's no accountability for lying or half-truths in the gaming industry.

 

@Gorth Just playing devil's advocate. No need for insults.

 

Welcome to life. You are going to buy a lot of things that you will not be happy with, and you usually won't be able to get your money back.

 

You are also only out $60 here, the developer is losing much more when people pirate their work. Developer's put years of their life into these products, and then they ask you to pay a nominal fee to enjoy it. It's a simple idea. If you want to play it, do the right thing and pay. When you pirate, you disrespect all the work that they've done.

This is an awful way of looking at it. Developers put years of their lives into games, you shouldn't be upset with their products because you paid for them and they weren't what you were led to believe and you didn't like them. You're only out $60, they're out years of their lives. Edited September 26, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Drowsy Emperor]

So how do you think the people that create the games feel about that?

 

I'm guessing some are apathetic, others are the frothy raging kind. Would be funny if some of them actually WERE Scene members

 

I doubt piracy inspires much reaction anymore, by now they ought to know that a cracked release is inevitable. If there is no cracked release that means the game is so ****ty it isn't even worth pirating.

 

Regardless piracy is overblown. Game developers fail because their games fail, and their games fail because they suck - not because they've been pirated.

[213374U]

There is accountability though. There's no need to continue purchasing the games. The thing that gets me is that these same people still pirate them, and then justify it as "sticking it to the man" when all their piracy shows them is that they really DO still want to play the games. A lot of people have said BioWare is no longer a preorder for them as a result. That's exactly what they should do.

 

If you want to boycott someone, boycott them. Don't circumvent your boycott by acquiring said product and then thinking you're being all sneaky and crafty about it by not purchasing it.

We both know it's no use trying to rebut the "moral" aspect of piracy, because that's not its raison d'être. You said it yourself in this very thread, even if it was just paraphrasing someone else. It's not about justice, it's not about consumer rights. It's about convenience. People pirate because warez is cleaner, easier to acquire, and to top it off, it's free. Everything else is just an excuse or an exercise in self-deceit. Now, there is a lot the industry could do to attack the real causes of piracy, and that sure as **** is not pump out half-assed sequels every odd year, protected by ever-increasingly obtrusive DRM schemes or ****ty forced-online activation platforms.

 

Good to have you back, btw.

 

 

Welcome to life. You are going to buy a lot of things that you will not be happy with, and you usually won't be able to get your money back.

I know I always end up picking on you but... seriously?

 

Sorry if I don't fit into your resigned goody-two-shoes consumer land fantasy, but I don't usually accept being ripped off. Ofc, I never preorder or buy on release, but still. That's just not a very good mindset to have.

[Hurlshort]

You aren't being ripped off, you got a game and if it doesn't actually work, you can return it. You are talking about it not meeting your expectations. You don't have to accept that either, you don't need to buy their games anymore.

[Malcador]

Hm, last time I tried wasn't able to return a PC game, well unless you carefully repackage it and trick them that way, heh.

[Hurlshort]

Hm, last time I tried wasn't able to return a PC game, well unless you carefully repackage it and trick them that way, heh.

 

It's been a long time since I've bought a game that didn't work, actually. I think about 10 years ago I bought a game, it ran terribly, and I returned it to Electronic's Boutique for my money.

 

Nowadays my guess is you have to go through the publisher when the game is actually broken, unless it is physically broken, then most stores would probably replace it.

[Drowsy Emperor]

You know, I don't know any other product that's so uniformly expensive and mostly rubbish at the same time as games are. Movies perhaps, but they're a lot cheaper.

[SigmaBunny]

You know, I don't know any other product that's so uniformly expensive and mostly rubbish at the same time as games are. Movies perhaps, but they're a lot cheaper.

 

And you can rent a movie, if you're not sure you'll like it. You can't do that with a PC game. At least, none that I've seen.

 

It's part of why I'm a member of a gaming club. Those who want to get a game straight away do so, and those of us who are more cautious wait to see what they say or get them to bring the game in so we can check it out.

[Hurlshort]

Gaming has actually been getting cheaper though. Sure, you still have the big titles that are expensive and don't drop in price very much, but there are just a ton of quality titles available under $10 nowadays. Some of them are older, some of them are independent titles, but really it's a very good time to be a cheapskate, the deals are everywhere.

[213374U]

You aren't being ripped off, you got a game and if it doesn't actually work, you can return it. You are talking about it not meeting your expectations. You don't have to accept that either, you don't need to buy their games anymore.

A rip-off isn't only a game that "doesn't work". Rarely a game does not work at all (even though this does happen with some bull**** DRM systems) -- mostly it's just bugs preventing the game from working as advertised, the serverity of which varies from title to title. It's also the product not living up to the expectations created, explicitly, by the people charged with promoting it (the Casey Hudson/ME3 ending example). This is an already ludicrous concept (puffery) taken to outrageous extremes.

 

The thing is, the industry is used to really, really low quality/consumer satisfaction standards, and with mainstreaming it's getting worse (!). If you are sold rotting fruit or spoiled meat, you'd be an idiot not to return it, even though you could perhaps still eat it and not die. If you are sold a piece of clothing that completely loses color after washing or tears after wearing it once, you can return it and get a new one or a refund. Same thing with most tangible goods. A game? You are out of luck, there is no physical evidence to push your claim, and you can't go solve your grievances with the publisher or developer face to face either. But on the other hand, they insist piracy is "theft". Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

[Malcador]

Gaming has actually been getting cheaper though. Sure, you still have the big titles that are expensive and don't drop in price very much, but there are just a ton of quality titles available under $10 nowadays. Some of them are older, some of them are independent titles, but really it's a very good time to be a cheapskate, the deals are everywhere.

 

Well, unfortunately, those prices are still greater than zero.

[Hurlshort]

You aren't being ripped off, you got a game and if it doesn't actually work, you can return it. You are talking about it not meeting your expectations. You don't have to accept that either, you don't need to buy their games anymore.

A rip-off isn't only a game that "doesn't work". Rarely a game does not work at all (even though this does happen with some bull**** DRM systems) -- mostly it's just bugs preventing the game from working as advertised, the serverity of which varies from title to title. It's also the product not living up to the expectations created, explicitly, by the people charged with promoting it (the Casey Hudson/ME3 ending example). This is an already ludicrous concept (puffery) taken to outrageous extremes.

 

The thing is, the industry is used to really, really low quality/consumer satisfaction standards, and with mainstreaming it's getting worse (!). If you are sold rotting fruit or spoiled meat, you'd be an idiot not to return it, even though you could perhaps still eat it and not die. If you are sold a piece of clothing that completely loses color after washing or tears after wearing it once, you can return it and get a new one or a refund. Same thing with most tangible goods. A game? You are out of luck, there is no physical evidence to push your claim, and you can't go solve your grievances with the publisher or developer face to face either. But on the other hand, they insist piracy is "theft". Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

 

Do you have any examples of games where the quality was so low it was unplayable? The only game mentioned so far was Fable, but I played it and enjoyed it. Enough people obviously did, because it stemmed two sequels. The problem with your argument is most of these complaints are based on opinions. There are a lot of ways to make your opinion heard, from not buying the product to buying products that do meet your expectations. Kickstarters are a great tool in this respect, you can pay more than the market price to really show you support certain qualities. Piracy does not help your desire for more quality games in any way.

 

You mention clothing, but if you buy an outfit and wear it, then realize you look stupid in it, you don't get to return it. Also, those outfits look better on the runway models, so every industry does their share of illusory advertising.

[213374U]

Do you have any examples of games where the quality was so low it was unplayable?

Oh, I see. No point in presenting facts because the dudeness is strong with this one indeed. Screw falsifiability, I have an opinion! So yeah, it's always the stupid consumer's fault for not enjoying the endless stream of craptastic, bug-ridden, generic repackages, after all, you do! Good faith, business ethics and plain old shame are worthless concepts from barbaric times, but piracy is a CRIME and y'all filthy pirates are the scum of the high seas.

 

Anything else is just like, your opinion, man.

 

 

You mention clothing, but if you buy an outfit and wear it, then realize you look stupid in it, you don't get to return it. Also, those outfits look better on the runway models, so every industry does their share of illusory advertising.

You can try clothes on before you pay for them, and clothes don't start to suck or stop protecting you from cold after you wear them for an hour or two. And if they did, you could return them for not working as advertised. (FACT)

 

edit: agreed about kickstarters (to an extent) and the point about piracy as a "tool" for anything other than getting stuff for free. But that's not what I was discussing.

Edited September 27, 2012 by 213374U

[Hurlshort]

Do you have any examples of games where the quality was so low it was unplayable?

Oh, I see. No point in presenting facts because the dudeness is strong with this one indeed. Screw falsifiability, I have an opinion! So yeah, it's always the stupid consumer's fault for not enjoying the endless stream of craptastic, bug-ridden, generic repackages, after all, you do! Good faith, business ethics and plain old shame are worthless concepts from barbaric times, but piracy is a CRIME and y'all filthy pirates are the scum of the high seas.

 

Anything else is just like, your opinion, man.

 

 

Uh...it was a serious question. I just figured it would be easier to dissect a specific game than to speak in generalities. I'm not quite sure what you are saying, to be honest.

 

I believe you might be insulting me because I enjoy games you consider craptastic. I play games to have fun, that's really my main and only requirement.

[Zoraptor]

Outpost and Big Rigs as being genuinely dreadful/ so buggy they could not be played/ completed, Daggerfall v1 and Descent to Undermountain being a bit better and a few recent examples like Elemental/ Demigod/ Sword of the Stars 2; though of course and to their credit (or our credit really, ohoho) Stardock did offer refunds for their two.

 

Outpost at least had genuinely atrocious and inaccurate claims both in promotional material and theoretically 'impartial' info like reviews, and SOTS2 was barely barely better in terms of offering features that actually existed let alone worked properly, and most of the pre release info from Kerberus and Paradox was if not outright dishonest about as close as possible to it. Mind you, I don't tend to see that as being reason to actually pirate, I'd just refuse to buy anything further from those involved. Didn't actually end up buying SOTS2 though; for once much genuine thanks to Paradox for afflicting it with Valve's Software Console as that saved me 40USD.

[213374U]

Uh...it was a serious question. I just figured it would be easier to dissect a specific game than to speak in generalities. I'm not quite sure what you are saying, to be honest.

 

I believe you might be insulting me because I enjoy games you consider craptastic. I play games to have fun, that's really my main and only requirement.

I'm not insulting you. I can't afford it - I have 2 warning points already. Fun in games is also the only requirement for me. Unfortunately -for this discussion- "fun" like "unplayable" are subjective notions.

 

See, the problem with your stance is that, no matter the arguments I make, no matter the specific shortcomings in games I point to, no matter the PR falsehoods I remind you about, you can always fall back to "well, that's like, your opinion, man. I had fun with that one". I don't care if you had "fun" with it.

 

The point is, I had to drop Binary Domain because it suffered from the console port syndrome so bad that playing with a mouse is all but impossible. Voice recognition was bunk, too. I had to drop TFU because of similar reasons, on top of the game's writing being especially terrible in a genre renowned for its general lack of quality in that regard. I had to drop Civ4 because it had a memory leak so severe that the game would either crash constantly or slow to a crawl in long games. I had to download a cracked exe for FO3 as Securom thought I was a pirate and prevented me from running my copy. I had to drop ME3MP because my favorite class, the Vanguard, is bugged so deeply it's unplayable (yes, unplayable as in getting locked outside of the map for the whole match), and Bioware hasn't fixed it even after stating in the last patch notes that it had been solved. Those are just right off the top of my head, I'm sure others have similar experiences. I guess they were "playable", in the same sense that a car can still run if the A/C is busted, the lights don't work, but it's not the product I've paid full price for.

[Grimlorn]

Fable was mentioned as an example of how people can market and advertise features about a game then not deliver at release. It doesn't matter if you enjoyed the game or not. Your enjoyment isn't universal. I was a consumer and I was unhappy, features I looked forward to were missing, and features that were in the game were highly exaggerated. Why don't you pay attention to the point I'm making instead of trying to cite it had 2 sequels and I enjoyed it so it must be good? Damn herd mentality.

 

I heard that people were able to return DA2 on Amazon because of how buggy and blatantly unfinished that game was. Not sure if it was true.

 

ME3 obviously had the Casey Hudson interview where he say your choices will matter at the end and there won't be a A, B, C type ending. After ME1 and 2 though, I was sure he was lying. But I was surprised there were more than 2 choices.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Grimlorn