44,000 year old house built by Neanderthals discovered

[Humodour]

Architecture, fire, and communal living... I don't think stupidity or lack of adaptability are the reasons Neanderthals died out.

 

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-neande...es-ukraine.html

 

And it begs another question for all those of you who believe in a sky fairy - does your world view allow for Neanderthals to have had souls and humanity, too? And if not, and given that fact that non-Africans have about 5% Neanderthal DNA, I guess that means Africans have purer souls? And if Neanderthals had souls, did Australopithecus? What about modern chimpanzees? Where in the evolutionary ladder do you account for the emergence of 'souls'?

 

I'm sorry for presupposing an understanding of evolution. It's because I don't consider creationists to be people, so those of you who are can feel free to ignore this thread and go bash some rocks together and giggle at the pretty sparks, or bomb an abortion clinic, or whatever it is you lot do.

[Hurlshort]

Since you couldn't just stick to reporting the fascinating story, you might want to know that there are plenty of religious people that have no problem with evolution. In fact I don't believe we have any creationists on this forum, so I'm not sure who you are trying to goad.

 

edit: Seriously, it's annoying that you even needed to bring religion up. This is a fascinating story and will be a great discussion piece for my students when we talk about the early man.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Hurlshot

[Wrath of Dagon]

Krezack just can't post without venting his spleen or insulting someone, preferably both. Creationism doesn't conflict with evolution, it's just a question of what the method of creation was. Most major religions accept evolution so far as I know.

 

Where in the evolutionary ladder do you account for the emergence of 'souls'?

I don't know, where in the evolutionary ladder do you account for the emergence of self-awareness?

[Tigranes]

Krezack, at a certain point, foaming at the mouth about people you think are stupid and wrong doesn't make you look passionate, it makes you look like an intellectually limited person that can only think one way. Which makes your arguments less convincing.

 

The find is certainly interesting, though I don't have contextual knowledge - I wonder if the 25 hearths suggests this was used to host a rather large group of neanderthals, though at the maximum size of 26 feet that's going to be pretty crowded. Do we even have enough archaeological evidence to concretely suggest a linear sequence of human types, anyway? I always thought, at least at the pop science level at which I learned things, the human evolutionary history was a bit too neat and ordered.

[Hurlshort]

Do we even have enough archaeological evidence to concretely suggest a linear sequence of human types, anyway? I always thought, at least at the pop science level at which I learned things, the human evolutionary history was a bit too neat and ordered.

 

 

This chart shows a fair degree of overlap. I grabbed it off the internet, so I can't verify everything, but it looks pretty close to what I see in the textbooks.

[Krookie]

my face when the Athiest people on this forum start more conversation about religion/attack those who do not conform to their beliefs/force their opinions on others more than any of the religious folk

 

^______________________________________________________________^

Edited December 20, 2011 by Krookie

[Tale]

my face when the Athiest people on this forum start more conversation about religion/attack those who do not conform to their beliefs/force their opinions on others more than any of the religious folk

 

^______________________________________________________________^

Because Krezack is a representative sample.

[Malcador]

Not very enlightened to think people aren't so because they have a certain belief. Hm, kind of a Godwin there.

[Asol]

I tried to read this article.

 

"Now, with the discovery of a home built by Neanderthals, it

[bigcrazewolf]

We are all made of the same stuff, no matter what, or whom you are it just matters how you atoms are arranged, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Krookie]

my face when the Athiest people on this forum start more conversation about religion/attack those who do not conform to their beliefs/force their opinions on others more than any of the religious folk

 

^______________________________________________________________^

Because Krezack is a representative sample.

 

 

well right now it's athiests 1 religious people 0 at least from my recent memory

 

so...yeah.

[Walsingham]

Krezack, at a certain point, foaming at the mouth about people you think are stupid and wrong doesn't make you look passionate, it makes you look like an intellectually limited person that can only think one way. Which makes your arguments less convincing.

 

+1

[HoonDing]

I used to be a Homo floresiensis like you... then I took a mutation in the knee.

[Nonek]

I believe Ray Charles is often credited with introducing "soul" to the world at large.

[Malcador]

I used to be a Homo floresiensis like you... then I took a mutation in the knee.

 

Well played

[Guard Dog]

Krez, I'm beginning to think there is no hope for you. How can a man that enjoys his Mary Jane be so angry and hostile all the time?

 

To follow up on the rest of the discussion, I find that atheists proselytize far more aggresively and are far less tolerant of other people that any other group. Taking myself as an example, I am a Christian. I believe in God and Jesus without any doubt. I have never called anyone else (not even Krezack) stupid for not thinking as I do, or suggested that anyone else should believe as I do or tried to convince anyone here else that I'm right and they're wrong about faith. Neither has any of the other christians on this board that I've ever seen. Now the atheists on this board, almost to a man, that is a whole different story and, bad as he is, Krez is not even the worst.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Guard Dog

[Hurlshort]

To follow up on the rest of the discussion, I find that atheists proselytize far more aggressively and are far less tolerant of other people that any other group.

 

I am hoping you mean on the internet. I will defend the virtues of organized religion until I'm blue in the face, but I'm also very aware thatthey have plenty of foaming at the mouth folks of their own.

[Guard Dog]

To follow up on the rest of the discussion, I find that atheists proselytize far more aggressively and are far less tolerant of other people that any other group.

 

I am hoping you mean on the internet. I will defend the virtues of organized religion until I'm blue in the face, but I'm also very aware thatthey have plenty of foaming at the mouth folks of their own.

 

Oh no arguments there. However in my own experience I find atheists are far more militant and will deliberatly turn a conversation to religion for the sole purpose of belittling or even outright insulting what they see as their "intellectual inferiors". Take Krezacks example right here in this thread. Does the article he posted mention religion or evolution in any way? No, yet it was the very first thing he comes up with and he did it in the most offensive and insulting way possible.

 

But what do I know. According to him I'm not a person because I don't think like he does.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Guard Dog

[Zoraptor]

I'm slightly more religious than a slab of concrete- I've been to church services twice (?) in the past 15 years, both times when my sisters were married (one of them to an atheist)- and find Evangelical Atheists alternately hilarious and highly annoying, largely depending on how much their views are similar to mine. Usually it is more similar = more annoyance as I always end up asking "why do you care so much about what other people believe? Doesn't effect you so none of your business" in my head in those cases. Evangelical Atheists are however frequently very good indicators that the worst aspects of religious zeal actually have very little to do with religion*, and have far more to do with the capacity of humans to believe that people who have mere superficial differences are inherently inferior.

 

I do rather like religion though, I like visiting temples/ churches/ mosques etc and like almost all religious art and music, and think that religion has been a huge influence on what makes us actually human as opposed to upright-walking-99%-chimp-reasoning-machines, and I'd describe myself as an agnostic rather than an atheist.

 

*per South Parks's United Atheist Alliance etc

[Hurlshort]

I also am more a fan of religion than religiously active. I consider myself a Deist, rather than agnostic, basically I don't subscribe to any particular denomination.

[Orogun01]

Oh no arguments there. However in my own experience I find atheists are far more militant and will deliberatly turn a conversation to religion for the sole purpose of belittling or even outright insulting what they see as their "intellectual inferiors". Take Krezacks example right here in this thread. Does the article he posted mention religion or evolution in any way? No, yet it was the very first thing he comes up with and he did it in the most offensive and insulting way possible.

 

But what do I know. According to him I'm not a person because I don't think like he does.

It may be related to the misguided atheist belief that religion is to blame for all modern troubles and that they are on a mission to save the world from it's own idiocy. Apparently blind to see that they are playing the same game.

[Humodour]

So, guys, your attacks on atheism aside, where do you account for the evolution of 'souls'?

[Zoraptor]

Dunno. Probably the best answer is it's the same place that humans became humans, rather than just 'sophisticated' monkeys? Whether that's H. sapiens (sapiens), H. habilis or whatever classification they currently like for H. sapiens neanderthalensis is an open question.

 

Not a great question though, really. Religious people will/ can just say God Did It, atheists will either deny that a soul exists or regard it as different from how the religious people do. Even the religious people won't regard it uniformly as the Eastern 'religions' (Dharmics/ Hindu) regard it differently to western ones.

[Hurlshort]

So, guys, your attacks on atheism aside, where do you account for the evolution of 'souls'?

 

Nobody is really attacking atheism.

 

What exactly is the evolution of souls? It seems like you are trying to define and pin down something that is inherently indefinite and ever changing. We might as well try to figure out where love came into existence, or really any deep emotion.

[Rosbjerg]

I find that atheists proselytize far more aggresively and are far less tolerant of other people that any other group.

 

On the internet yeah - but irl I've never been insulted for saying I'm agnostic by an atheist, while I've been told I'm a dirty heathen and I'll go to hell by Christians/Muslims.. I think a lot of the vile from atheists come from their negative experiences with religious people - being scolded for asking questions etc.

 

But I think that about (totally made up number) 1-10% of atheist and Christians are hardcore idiots - I however have more respect for the atheist in that grouping as they tend to have thought more, which is not to say that they have thought a lot, about why they have taken their particular stance than those Christians.