Deus Ex 3

[Maria Caliban]

I just finished with the third boss fight (Singapore) and I have to say that every 'surprise' moment in the story has seemed... obvious. Even the sudden appearance of the third boss, while very clever, was something I expected as soon as the cutscene started.

[Hurlshort]

I'm trying to save the pilot but really doing a bad job. Curse my lack of any heavy armaments!

[Wombat]

I just finished with the third boss fight (Singapore) and I have to say that every 'surprise' moment in the story has seemed... obvious. Even the sudden appearance of the third boss, while very clever, was something I expected as soon as the cutscene started.

Generally speaking, in role-playing games, I'd rather like to see more of story/character development than surprises and/or epic moments since they are out of control of the choices of the players but I think it's another reasonable criticism to this conspiracy themed plot-line.

 

However, specifically to this game, beside some obvious plots, I suspect, if the players gather info such as getting it from NPCs and/or hacking computers, then, it is probably easier to see what's coming. I wonder if there are people consciously lose dialogue mini-games while they can retry only in order to see what will happen. Here, I'm not defending the game but I'm just guessing that some of the feeling may come from the design itself, beside the plots. For, this could be food for thought if some people design the game in a more or less similar manner. Alpha Protocol's conversation system is about choice (if we exclude the time-limit as a game-play) but there is a win/lose factor in this game. Talking of that, the conversation system-based on profiling/psychological state may be well fit to something like Aliens: Crucible since some designers mentioned it is designed as psychological suspense where people can be more dangerous than the situation given to them.

 

I'm trying to save the pilot but really doing a bad job. Curse my lack of any heavy armaments!

I kept myself invisible during the combat by feeding the battery recklessly. They will shoot back but seems to find it difficult to nail Adam. Also, it was where I maxed out the battery but I didn't find it useful after the scene. In any case, I have earned a lot of EXP by hacking and take-downs. It seems to be some walkthroughs for this on the net.

[Tale]

I'm trying to save the pilot but really doing a bad job. Curse my lack of any heavy armaments!

Don't need heavy. Stun gun or 10mm + 1 emp grenade.

[Wombat]

. Google nailed it.

[Lexx]

Imo, typing in a password instead of hacking something should give you at least 100xp as well, to make it at least a little bit even. I am close to the end again and *now* I begin to use passwords to skip the hacking, only because I have lots of praxis points anyway and another few will not make a change.

 

Also killing people from the distance should give more xp as well. I know that it is easier to kill folks from longer range instead of sneaking close to them and taking them out--- but it's not like the later is very hard as well. It kind of forces you to go into melee, else you miss out too many xp, like it was written in here already.

 

Additionally, I would change how melee attacks are working: Lethal-attack should be totally silent and the non-lethal attack making the noise, to balance things out. I mean, seriously, why should I kill people in melee if it is loud and if I can as well just knock them out and probably get more xp for it? Yes, yes, enemies could revive their knocked out friends, but be honest: How often does that actually happen? Not a lot.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Lexx

[entrerix]

i completely agree with everything lexx just said.

 

wonder if there will be any mods for this game...

[Wombat]

I'd rather go for Alpha Protocol philosophy on this one despite of the fact that I'd like the designers to do some research on the game-play of DXHR. Players shouldn't be taxed/rewarded based on how they played the game. However, these micromanagements for earning XP is quite traditional in CRPG. Also, it's classic o spare resource to exploit some occasions. In fact, I spared explosives/ammo/energies for boss battles and the cases like above. I did this with original Deus Ex but, it is definitely not a good design in terms of balancing. I wonder how much of this is intended in DXHR since one of the themes are giving people "freedom."

 

Although Sawyer may sound like a control freak (Haggard? ) at times, I'm inclined to agree with ammo and other things when it comes to balance/give the players calculated game-play experience.

 

Just one thing makes me step back, though. As Avelone and Harvey Smith may agree, it is often the moment of the satisfaction for the players to come across with what even the designers didn't expect. Of course, this is nothing to do with micromanagement but I guess there should be a balance between quality game-plays and simulated sand-box world under a certain core rules.

[Lexx]

Another alternative (for a new game) would be to not give any xp for killing / knocking out enemies at all. This could actually solve quite a lot of DX:HRs problems. If players only gain xp from doing quests and exploring, they aren't forced to deal with enemies in a certain way to max out the possible xp reward and the designers don't have to care about balancing out the xp rewards for dealing with enemies, etc.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Lexx

[Deraldin]

I'm trying to save the pilot but really doing a bad job. Curse my lack of any heavy armaments!

 

I went into that section with no energy, 29 combat rifle shots, 8 pistol shots and 10 tranq rounds. I didn't manage to save her. I could never take down the heavies fast enough to save her. The copter always blew within about 20 seconds.

[Nepenthe]

Another alternative (for a new game) would be to not give any xp for killing / knocking out enemies at all. This could actually solve quite a lot of DX:HRs problems. If players only gain xp from doing quests and exploring, they aren't forced to deal with enemies in a certain way to max out the possible xp reward and the designers don't have to care about balancing out the xp rewards for dealing with enemies, etc.

And suddenly you're at the Mass Effect 2 illusive man end-game screen and EVERYBODY's bitching like there's no tomorrow. Since, apparently, if you get mission based xp, it's "no longer and RPG!!11one"

 

also, that boss fight against

Namir

or what's-his-face

is really mother-******** hard when you made the horrible mistake of visiting the Limb clinic and getting the surgery done... damn

Heh, serves you right. Even though I was fairly sure it was a trap, I was still wondering... They did a decent job with it! (also fixed that for you).

 

I just finished with the third boss fight (Singapore) and I have to say that every 'surprise' moment in the story has seemed... obvious. Even the sudden appearance of the third boss, while very clever, was something I expected as soon as the cutscene started.

I don't think it was meant so much as a surprise to you as to Jensen... Still, I thought it, and the Montreal bossfight were visually very impressive and well done. The Detroit one less so...

[Maria Caliban]

Also, anyone want to discuss the endings?

I just finished and was quite upset that

I had to kill the hyron core because I didn't have a laser rifle. Especially as (I think) they're clones of your girlfriend. If you're going to introduce that level of WTF at the end, you should probably give a non-lethal option.

 

[Lexx]

Another alternative (for a new game) would be to not give any xp for killing / knocking out enemies at all. This could actually solve quite a lot of DX:HRs problems. If players only gain xp from doing quests and exploring, they aren't forced to deal with enemies in a certain way to max out the possible xp reward and the designers don't have to care about balancing out the xp rewards for dealing with enemies, etc.

And suddenly you're at the Mass Effect 2 illusive man end-game screen and EVERYBODY's bitching like there's no tomorrow. Since, apparently, if you get mission based xp, it's "no longer and RPG!!11one"

 

Probably.

 

A bit sad, though. But then again, I personally never saw DX1 as a rpg. It at least never felt to me like one.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Another alternative (for a new game) would be to not give any xp for killing / knocking out enemies at all. This could actually solve quite a lot of DX:HRs problems. If players only gain xp from doing quests and exploring, they aren't forced to deal with enemies in a certain way to max out the possible xp reward and the designers don't have to care about balancing out the xp rewards for dealing with enemies, etc.

And suddenly you're at the Mass Effect 2 illusive man end-game screen and EVERYBODY's bitching like there's no tomorrow. Since, apparently, if you get mission based xp, it's "no longer and RPG!!11one"

 

Except I never heard anyone criticizing Mass Effect 2's mission based-XP but just the extremely game-y TPS-like mission completed screens? Just for the sake of clarity.

[Nepenthe]

Also, anyone want to discuss the endings?

I just finished and was quite upset that

I had to kill the hyron core because I didn't have a laser rifle. Especially as (I think) they're clones of your girlfriend. If you're going to introduce that level of WTF at the end, you should probably give a non-lethal option.

 

 

I didn't realise you could not kill them. Does the wall become aug/urded breakable only after they are gone?

Away from the game for a couple of days, so can't check it myself...

[Wombat]

Another alternative (for a new game) would be to not give any xp for killing / knocking out enemies at all. This could actually solve quite a lot of DX:HRs problems. If players only gain xp from doing quests and exploring, they aren't forced to deal with enemies in a certain way to max out the possible xp reward and the designers don't have to care about balancing out the xp rewards for dealing with enemies, etc.

And suddenly you're at the Mass Effect 2 illusive man end-game screen and EVERYBODY's bitching like there's no tomorrow. Since, apparently, if you get mission based xp, it's "no longer and RPG!!11one"

 

Except I never heard anyone criticizing Mass Effect 2's mission based-XP but just the extremely game-y TPS-like mission completed screens? Just for the sake of clarity.

Use the word "quests," instead of "missions"...the issue solved.

 

Also, anyone want to discuss the endings?

I just finished and was quite upset that

I had to kill the hyron core because I didn't have a laser rifle. Especially as (I think) they're clones of your girlfriend. If you're going to introduce that level of WTF at the end, you should probably give a non-lethal option.

 

Hacking to the control panel didn't make the wall breakable? I simply nailed her with my boss-fight only heavy rifle even without the wall-breaking aug.

 

[Hell Kitty]

The right dialogue is pretty self evident imho.

Not really. I was playing around with some of the conversations, and in the one with

Taggart, the first time I did it the final line about his wife saw me "win" the conversation, but the second time it just pissed him off.

 

 

also, that boss fight against

Niham

or what's-his-face

is really mother-******** hard when you made the horrible mistake of visiting the Limb clinic and getting the surgery done... damn

Heh, I was pretty sure that decision was the wrong one, but I figured I do it the first time around.

 

Additionally, I would change how melee attacks are working: Lethal-attack should be totally silent and the non-lethal attack making the noise, to balance things out.

Non-lethal is silent, but the enemy can be revived. Lethal is noisy, but the takedown is permanent. That's balanced to me, before taking XP into account at least.

 

Yes, yes, enemies could revive their knocked out friends, but be honest: How often does that actually happen? Not a lot.

That depends on how you play. I was mostly lethal and did most of my killing with a silenced pistol and enemies rarely heard my victims.

 

I went into that section with no energy, 29 combat rifle shots, 8 pistol shots and 10 tranq rounds. I didn't manage to save her. I could never take down the heavies fast enough to save her. The copter always blew within about 20 seconds.

I did that section twice and thought I would never, ever be able to save her, then the third time around I just used my silenced sniper rifle from the starting position before taking about the bot with a single emp and it was a lot easier.

 

Especially as (I think) they're clones of your girlfriend.

What makes you think that?

 

I was disappointed that the endings where just Jensen voice-overs, but I figure that perhaps they want to use him for future games and don't what want to have to account for a whole bunch of variations.

 

Also,

Megan is a jerk.

 

[Lexx]

Non-lethal is silent, but the enemy can be revived. Lethal is noisy, but the takedown is permanent. That's balanced to me, before taking XP into account at least.

 

I am through the game now twice and never had there been the situation where I got trouble in whatever kind of way because one knocked out dude was revived again. In fact, I still used his body to lure his friends over, so I can tase them down as well. Works very good and it gives me more xp than killing, which is the point. Killing - for me - is totally useless and inefficient, because I am either hiding the body well enough or if someone else saw the body, I knock him out as well. No need to waste xp with killing, in no situation.

 

Yes, yes, enemies could revive their knocked out friends, but be honest: How often does that actually happen? Not a lot.

That depends on how you play. I was mostly lethal and did most of my killing with a silenced pistol and enemies rarely heard my victims.

 

Of course it depends on how you play. But the nature of men is to farm as much xp as possible, especially if it's so easy.

 

I stopped this behavior after I had maxed out all the augs I needed... which is too late, imo.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Lexx

[Gorgon]

The biggest annoyance is still the melee system. You can expend all your energy and still sprint at full tilt for 10 seconds, but you can't whack they guard right next to you over the head. The opposition can hit you in melee, they do it all the time in the final mission, you just stand there and listen to an error sound until your energy is recharged, not cool from a game-play perspective. There should be melee attacks, not guaranteed to take someone down silently, but available.

[Rosbjerg]

yeah, im wondering if my next playthrough will leave me totally gimped. im not going to hack anything i dont have to, and im killing EVERYTHING. (ie the opposite of my current playthrough)

 

Well in a completely combat oriented playthrough you won't really need all the stealth, hacking and what-not upgrades. Just strength, recoil, typhoon, dermal armour and perhaps some energy upgrades.. I think you'd get more than enough xp for that?

 

Stealth requires much more to be unlocked and it's probably why they went this route.

 

The biggest annoyance is still the melee system. There should be melee attacks, not guaranteed to take someone down silently, but available.

 

I agree, In the last mission I spent a lot of time sitting somewhere out of reach and recharging.

[Raithe]

The biggest annoyance is still the melee system. You can expend all your energy and still sprint at full tilt for 10 seconds, but you can't whack they guard right next to you over the head. The opposition can hit you in melee, they do it all the time in the final mission, you just stand there and listen to an error sound until your energy is recharged, not cool from a game-play perspective. There should be melee attacks, not guaranteed to take someone down silently, but available.

 

I think the melee system really becomes noticable in

Panchea

. With all the crazies attacking you with fists and you suddenly can lose massive health in just a few moments.

It's one thing when it's bullets or such, but when random workmen driven crazy can wave their arms and whap your health like that.. it makes it a bit silly that Jensen doesn't have some form of melee that isn't an energy sucking auto-takedown.

[Wombat]

yeah, im wondering if my next playthrough will leave me totally gimped. im not going to hack anything i dont have to, and im killing EVERYTHING. (ie the opposite of my current playthrough)

 

Well in a completely combat oriented playthrough you won't really need all the stealth, hacking and what-not upgrades. Just strength, recoil, typhoon, dermal armour and perhaps some energy upgrades.. I think you'd get more than enough xp for that?

 

Stealth requires much more to be unlocked and it's probably why they went this route.

I see your point but what about the money issue? Here, I'm guessing since I haven't done combat path...except that I have quite a lot of experience enough to cover combat game-play, too, which is, however, not the point. As a side note, assault stealth type and pacifist stealth type would have different paths. I go for the latter so haven't spent any point for targeting and something like that.

 

The biggest annoyance is still the melee system. There should be melee attacks, not guaranteed to take someone down silently, but available.

 

I agree, In the last mission I spent a lot of time sitting somewhere out of reach and recharging.

Yea, I was glad that I had built a pacifist stealth type who finds various ways to avoid conflicts such as finding possible routes and even "vanish"ing for a limited amount of time. That's the map where I didn't go for even take-downs.

[Hurlshort]

I'm trying to save the pilot but really doing a bad job. Curse my lack of any heavy armaments!

Don't need heavy. Stun gun or 10mm + 1 emp grenade.

 

I ended up figuring it out. Watching a video helped me realize that once I took out the heavies and the bot, I had a bit more time to pick off the other guys. I kept trying to rush and ended up getting myself killed.

 

I used the typhoon twice, one to take out a couple heavies and one to take out the walker robot. Then I knocked out a couple guys with rifles, and used my pistol to shoot some conveniently placed explosive barrels near the snipers.

 

The tranq gun was just too slow for me, plus it isn't always effective. Maybe I needed to upgrade it and my aim skills, but I still got it done with a pistol.

[Rosbjerg]

The tranq gun was just too slow for me, plus it isn't always effective.

 

There's an upgrade which helps you to aim, but hitting someone in the neck or head makes them go out almost immediately - I went for the ass, it was slower but it was funny and they never noticed it.

[WDeranged]

I'll quickly post this without reading anything so as to preserve my innocence, loving it so far,

I got to China the other night, not quite as much to do as Detroit it seems but holy **** the atmosphere is good

, it's freaky how much this feels like an old game with a graphical makeover, I get a pretty big Bloodlines vibe running around the hubs.