Germany scraps nuke power

[Wrath of Dagon]

They have no way to replace nuclear, so it's all pink unicorn fantasy our president is so fond of as well.

[Walsingham]

Proportional representation FTW!

[Walsingham]

With thanks to Stratfor.com

 

Emphasis mine.

 

On May 30 the German government announced the seven nuclear power reactors that had been shut down in the aftermath of the Japanese earthquake and tsunami would never be reopened. In fact, they went on to announce the entire shuttering of the German nuclear fleet by 2022. Germany relies on nuclear power for roughly one-third of its electricity needs and at this point, the closure of the entire nuclear sector opens a four-way power game for the future of the German economy and German loyalties. The German plan is to replace the entirety of the nuclear industry with renewable power. Unfortunate for the Germans this is not cost possible. Nuclear power is less than one-third of wind power and less than one-twentieth the cost of solar power. Replacing one-third of their total power generation within a decade is simply not feasible much less possible. Which brings us to the other three options: the first is France.

 

France

[Wrath of Dagon]

UK windpower may be running out of wind: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/wi...ut-of-wind.html

[Guard Dog]

To reiterate what many of you have said, green energy is a great idea whose time has not yet come. Abandoning proven and reliable (to say nothing of fairly clean) nuclear power generaton with no workable alternative to take it's place is just lunacy.

[Calax]

To reiterate what many of you have said, green energy is a great idea whose time has not yet come. Abandoning proven and reliable (to say nothing of fairly clean) nuclear power generaton with no workable alternative to take it's place is just lunacy.

America at least has ALMOST given up on it. There hasn't been a new reactor in close to 40 years (barring the ones placed in Supercarriers). Mainly this is because people think that Nuke Reactor = Three Mile Island and Chernobyl as well as the more recent melt down in Japan. Even if it's probably the cleanest and safest power system currently available widely (be even cleaner if the US actually re-used cores instead of instantly tossing them as soon as they finished one use).

 

Basically, America has become the land of NIMBY.

[pmp10]

That comparison isn't entirely valid as there is a huge difference between those two countries.

US has options Germany can't dream of, for example it has access to almost 100k square km of desert.

Edited June 4, 2011 by pmp10

[Walsingham]

It's just occurred to me that ironically the refusal to use nuke power to spread the energy load will lead to more rapid depletion of fossil fuels and possibly an exchange of actual nuclear weapons.

 

How we will laugh when we realise our mistake.

[Blarghagh]

Somehow, I don't think you will.

[Walsingham]

IAEA report

 

As the IAEA notes:

 

To date no health effects have been reported in any person as a result of radiation exposure from the nuclear accident.

 

The report says:

 

The planned road-map for recovery of the stricken reactors is important ... It should be seen as part of a wider plan that could result in remediation of the areas off site affected by radioactive releases to allow people evacuated to resume their normal lives. Thus demonstrating to the world what can be achieved in responding to such extreme nuclear events.

 

In other words, it appears that in the IAEA's opinion not only will nobody be radiologically harmed by the Fukushima incident, but it ought to be possible to ensure that normal life

[Nepenthe]

To reiterate what many of you have said, green energy is a great idea whose time has not yet come. Abandoning proven and reliable (to say nothing of fairly clean) nuclear power generaton with no workable alternative to take it's place is just lunacy.

QFT

 

The reaction I'd like to see would be a major boost in the money spent on researching alternative energy sources, instead of this... I can't even think of a good expression in English, how would my fellow Finns translate "jeesustelu?" to Jesus around?

[Walsingham]

I could just have my maths all wrong, but if 'green' power from solar is 20 times more expensive then doesn't that mean it would need 20 times the economic activity to pay for it? Wouldn't that have all sorts of anti-green concomitants?

[Monte Carlo]

Find me a Green party politician who has run anything more demanding than a herbal tea stall at the local vegan fete. Please.

 

The Germans are nuts. The last time they gave their clueless liberals the reigns was Weimar. Looked what happened then.

[Rosbjerg]

Find me a Green party politician who has run anything more demanding than a herbal tea stall at the local vegan fete. Please.

 

The Germans are nuts. The last time they gave their clueless liberals the reigns was Weimar. Looked what happened then.

 

Liberals as in left-wing or liberal as in right-wing?

[Monte Carlo]

Weimar was social - democratic but broadly leftish for it's time.

[Rosbjerg]

Weimar was social - democratic but broadly leftish for it's time.

 

Well, I don't think the right-wing government that followed did much better to be honest.

[Nepenthe]

I could just have my maths all wrong, but if 'green' power from solar is 20 times more expensive then doesn't that mean it would need 20 times the economic activity to pay for it? Wouldn't that have all sorts of anti-green concomitants?

The problem with Greens, like socialists, is that they don't realise that you eventually run out of other people's money (partial quote from Thatcher, I believe). Hence just taking it and spending at as you choose is eventually going to bite you in the ass. You want to have the people who fund the system committed to it.

 

Yeah, it's only semirelated, I admit.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Lexx]

Everyone I know knows that it's bull**** to kick off all nuclear powerplants in germany. As far as I see it, the whole deal just happened because of the next coming elections and the media buzz around the turf in japan. Hell, before the accident in japan happened, nobody gave a **** about it. In fact, it was even stated that there will be no nuclear policy change for the next x years.

 

So, for me it's all just a big media spectacle that will not be seriously followed anyway.

 

 

/Edit: About left and right wing politics in germany: Everyone - except the right wing - knows that the folks from the right wing are stupid idiots. Just reading about their policical plans makes my brain explode.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Lexx

[Guard Dog]

Nevermind what I said in this post... I don't want to bring in LoF, or Oby-somthing or whatever he's calling himself today.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Guard Dog

[Walsingham]

The problem with left and right wing is that the latter are first order stupid, while the former are third order stupid.

 

They are both stupid. But people who are a little bit clever and have no system-specific expertise can only reason out the stupidity of the right. To reason out the stupidity of the left requires a big bit of paper and some pencils.

 

I get more annoyed by the left wing stupidity because it is committed by people who should know better, but can't be arsed.

[Rosbjerg]

^ I guess what you are saying is that sticking to ideology for the sake of it, is stupidity? to which I must agree - but I see good intention and actual brilliance in both spectres.. but sometime fear amongst the leftist and greed in the rights get in the way however.

[Walsingham]

^ I guess what you are saying is that sticking to ideology for the sake of it, is stupidity? to which I must agree - but I see good intention and actual brilliance in both spectres.. but sometime fear amongst the leftist and greed in the rights get in the way however.

 

No. That was't what I was saying, although I don't really disagree with you about rigidity. That ties into what I'm saying.

 

What I'm saying is that this is about the predictability of outcomes, and the sense in pursuing a given course in light of the eventual outcome. I'm saying that right wingers and left wingers both underestimate the complexity of our environment. But that right wingers underestimate it in a way which almost anyone can see. Whereas left wingers underestimate it just as catastrophically, but less obviously.

 

I actually should say that talking through these areas in with you chaps in recent months has shifted my views a little towards lighter government. I just don't see that a democratic decision making body can possibly appreciate and deliver coherent policy on complex topics. If intervention is going to be misguided or weak, then don't intervene. With various exceptions etc etc.

[Nepenthe]

I actually should say that talking through these areas in with you chaps in recent months has shifted my views a little towards lighter government. I just don't see that a democratic decision making body can possibly appreciate and deliver coherent policy on complex topics. If intervention is going to be misguided or weak, then don't intervene. With various exceptions etc etc.

I've been slowly drifting in that direction myself, I was a member of the Green party a couple of years ago, but I've slowly come to realise that do-gooders like that - who, due to never having done a days of honest work have no grasp of what is realistic, never mind what it feels to actually work for your money (I've worked myself through high school, bachelor's, master's, licentiate and now LL.D.)... and I won't even get started on their policies on criminal justice.

 

Basically, what pisses me off is the government neglecting the classical core functions (maintaining order and infrastructure) while spending money and all kinds of "nice" stuff. I'm happy with a lot of the nice stuff (if university education wasn't free, I could've never afforded it and the closest specialist in this legal field would be in the Netherlands), but getting priorities wrong is just going to **** things up in the intermediate run.

[Walsingham]

Interesting point, Nep. And I think there's a lot of frustration with that on the street. People feel that government isn't acting for them. And it's coming from all sides.

 

However, in fairness to the powers that be, I do wonder if it's precisely because our environment is so complex. We've had some interesting discussions about criminal justice here recently, and while we disagree we recognise that the impact of say, a sentencing tariff, is not obvious. Harsher sentence may sound like tough on crime, but it might not actually reduce crime. And if so, is that really protecting anyone? (I deliberately choose this example because I happen to think that it ought to work, and I'm trying to make a wider point about complexity).

 

To underscore the significance of this to this topic, again I'm thinking in terms of complexity. Should Germany want to switch off its nuke power, can it do so, and would the same effort be better used in other areas?

[Monte Carlo]

Weimar was social - democratic but broadly leftish for it's time.

 

Well, I don't think the right-wing government that followed did much better to be honest.

 

Duh. That's my point.