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MechanicalLemon

HBO's Game of Thrones

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I tried reading one of the newer books, but after it started going on about Wulfgars love woes I lost interest. The first few books with Drizzit and Artimis reminded me of The Duelists, or maybe The Killer A continuous rivalry between a good guy and a bad guy with more things in common than what separated them which forces them to more clearly define who they are. Of course when you keep milking it for a dozen books you cheat the reader of a proper conclusion.

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Seems like the only argument in favour of Martin's work is that you should lower your expectations immensely before reading his books. Damning with faint praise, I'd say.

I like them, it's just that the last one was somewhat lackluster and the next one has taken 6+ years to come out. The fandom was really cool as well pre-TV show. I just don't like praising something to high heavens when it's only half-way done and will probably remain that way for a while.

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Seems like the only argument in favour of Martin's work is that you should lower your expectations immensely before reading his books. Damning with faint praise, I'd say.

 

 

I dunno about that.

 

If one can stomach high fantasy type of novels, especially the multi-volume ones that just seem to cycle ever endlesly onward, Martin seems a much better practioner of that sort of thing than most.

 

Otoh, if one doesn't like high fantasy to begin with I don't think Martin is going to change one's mind.

 

ANd again that isn't meant to put down fantasy or science fiction or imaginitive fiction as a whole in any way. There are a lot of good writers working in the genre. But this specific subset of fantasy seems to attract the worst of the lot.


Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.

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I think the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are fine books. I'd argue that's the only fantasy worth reading, with a marginal exception for Terry Pratchett. I haven't regretted buying R.R.Martin's books, but they are still fairly badly written. I can enjoy the characters I empathized with in the show, and I can appreciate the sense of amoral political intrigue the plot creates, but it's still clumsy, mechanical and poorly suited for prose, really. He's part of a type of writer that, as far as I know, first appeared in the US and who seem to be writing movie plots instead of books. Clancy, Grisham are famous examples, but this class of writer has spread across the world. There's a Portuguese news anchor who writes books in the same style, for example.

 

To me, if you're going to compare his works to Eddings or Goodkind, in order to somehow elevate his standing, you might as well put his books side by side with slash fan fiction.


"My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist
I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
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I don't negate the possibility of something truly great coming out of a genre, in the same sense that I don't think it's impossible for a brilliant novel to appear in the Harlequin book lineup.

 

Additionally, I don't purport to have read every fantasy book ever written, but I think if the fantasy equivalent of Proust had been published, the noise raised by it would reach my ears.


"My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist
I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
Heja Sverige!!
Everyone should cuffawkle more.
The wrench is your friend. :bat:

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Ouch, you disregarded a whole genre there, brah. I look forward to the aftermath.

 

well, you can feels justified in dismissing pidesco comments... if that makes you feel better.

 

"I can enjoy the characters I empathized with in the show, and I can appreciate the sense of amoral political intrigue the plot creates, but it's still clumsy, mechanical and poorly suited for prose, really."

 

this coming from somebody who lauds tolkien? while tolkien typically takes a beating in academia (outside o' a notable university in england,) his stories IS well-loved. but even amongst the scholars who adore tolkien (snort) you will see an admission that tolkien's prose is, at best, "clumsy" and "mechanical." nobody has outdone tolkien in building a complete and coherent english mythology. nevertheless, is general accepted that tolkien were only an adequate wordsmith.

 

so, feel free to dismiss pidesco opine... 'cause am seeing an irredeemable conflict that effective undercuts pidesco judgement regarding fantasy lit.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I'm cool with Pidesco's opinions, but starting out with absolute statements is a good way to piss off lots of people.

 

I like a variety of books from a variety of genres and don't think setting one series or author on a pedestal is particularly constructive.

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Additionally, I don't purport to have read every fantasy book ever written, but I think if the fantasy equivalent of Proust had been published, the noise raised by it would reach my ears.

Seems a bit of an absurdly high standard. Yes, Fantasy may not reached the likes the greatest writers of history, but it is a genre not even 100 years old being compared against the entire breadth of history.

 

You might as well be saying "I don't like reading unless it's the great classics." Which is cool. But it does seem to be a limited perspective.


"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."

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I don't believe simply describing Tolkien as a fine writer is lauding him, but rather just appreciating his qualities. I'm not of the opinion that he is a stylistically amazing writer, but I still think he's much better than the fantasy writers that have emerged from his wake.

 

His interest was in creating a mythology, and it shows, as often times his writing was mostly functional. On the other hand some parts of Game of Thrones, for instance, struck me as less than functional, instead actively hindering my enjoyment.


"My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist
I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
Heja Sverige!!
Everyone should cuffawkle more.
The wrench is your friend. :bat:

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Additionally, I don't purport to have read every fantasy book ever written, but I think if the fantasy equivalent of Proust had been published, the noise raised by it would reach my ears.

Seems a bit of an absurdly high standard. Yes, Fantasy may not reached the likes the greatest writers of history, but it is a genre not even 100 years old being compared against the entire breadth of history.

 

You might as well be saying "I don't like reading unless it's the great classics." Which is cool. But it does seem to be a limited perspective.

 

 

I read or have read with enjoyment Neil Gaiman, Sue Townsend, Terry Pratchett, or Isaac Asimov. I'm even kind of enjoying Game of Thrones right now. Thinking Hemingway is unsurpassed by almost any writer, doesn't preclude me from enjoying books that I consider to be lesser works. It's just that I'm an opinionated sort of person and part of my fun in consuming culture comes from discovering and analysing perceived positives and negatives in whatever I'm experiencing.


"My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist
I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
Heja Sverige!!
Everyone should cuffawkle more.
The wrench is your friend. :bat:

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World building is just one part of writing a good book and Tolkien is hardly the only one who's good at it. Have you read R Scott Bakker? China Mieville?

Edited by Purkake

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I've heard good things of China Mieville. Bakker I don't know.


"My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist
I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
Heja Sverige!!
Everyone should cuffawkle more.
The wrench is your friend. :bat:

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Seems a bit of an absurdly high standard.

That's what I keep saying! :)


You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that?

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Have you guys seen the massive amount of covers of the theme song on youtube?

 

one is pretty hilarious - a Commodore64 cover. :lol:

Fortune favors the bald.

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I've heard good things of China Mieville. Bakker I don't know.

 

China Mieville? Urgh. Perdido Street Station was completely forgettable I even forgot to mention it here. Bustling super-city with mixed cultures and technologies and whatnot? Hurrah! Complete lack of richness, characters or plot? Hurroo...


"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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I only brought him up as an example of decent world building. I'm sure you can think of some others as well.

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What appeals to me about GRRM's writing isn't his word smithing, or his world smithing. GRRM spectacularly utilizes foreshadowing, and I love the fact that everything is up for grabs in terms of character development. In a lot of ways I wish GRRM would veer away from the mystical elements like the White Walkers and Dragons, and focus on the mystique of the far more interesting humans.

 

I haven't seen the show yet, I don't have HBO, but I am looking forward to watching it.

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Season 2 casting here and here.

 

Carice van Houten is Melisandre, Stephen Dillane is Stannis Baratheon, and Liam Cunningham is Davos.

 

The only actor of the three I'm familiar with is Stephen Dillane. He was fantastic as Thomas Jefferson in HBO's "John Adams." Really looking forward to seeing how he portrays Stannis.

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Stephen Dillane is a very excellent actor who deserves a lot more recognition. I especially remember him stealing Nicole Kidman's show in The Hours.


"My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist
I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
Heja Sverige!!
Everyone should cuffawkle more.
The wrench is your friend. :bat:

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Liam Cunningham is great actor as well. Seen him in Outcasts, Camelot (1 episode) and The Wind That Shakes the Barley (and many many other movies).


Hate the living, love the dead.

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i really don't see the big deal with Sean Bean being gone

 

his character fulfilled his role in the overall story and as far as being an interesting actor to watch.... well he isn't

he pretty much always plays the same type of character, so Ned Stark was nothing new


when your mind works against you - fight back with substance abuse!

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