Attack on UN staff, Afghan

[Walsingham]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/0...ations-killings

 

It seem that Terry Jones - world reknowned pathetic halfwit - actually went ahead and burned a koran last year. News which has only just broken.

 

At least seven dead as mob decide the best way to react is to confirm Jones' lunatic assertion that all Muslims are violent mentalists.

 

The only winner here is stupidity.

 

Thoughts are with the families of those killed.

[Azdeus]

Great way to prove the Christian fundies right.

 

Every time I read a similar thing I loose a bit of tolerance against religion.

[Gorgon]

Considering how many times the UN has been attacked in the region I wonder why security didn't make a better showing of it. Apparently they were disarmed by protesters, although some of them were also killed. Maybe a couple of heavy machine guns on the roof doesn't send the right message, but it's better than this.

[Rosbjerg]

Every time I read a similar thing I loose a bit of tolerance against religion.

 

Yeah me too.. This is completely idiotic on all accounts and as Walsh very aptly said stupidity truly is the only winner here..

[Gorgon]

Islam you mean. Who can remember the last Christian lynch mob. That might not sound very diplomatic, but it's surely true.

[Walsingham]

Islam you mean. Who can remember the last Christian lynch mob. That might not sound very diplomatic, but it's surely true.

 

It's got **** all to do with religion. And everything to do with being a ****wit.

 

BTW, _I_ 'remember' Christian lynch mobs:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs

[Morgoth]

Religion doesn't turn people into zealots.

 

The reason why these Afghans are so violent is because they didn't get a humane upbringing. Living in such an envirionemnt certainly doesn't help.

[Blarghagh]

Every time I read a similar thing I loose a bit of tolerance against religion.

 

Me too, but then I remember that there are a whole bunch of stupid people on this planet whose only deterrent against throwing a fit and committing horrible murder over "sonuvabits cut me off on the freeway" is the fact that their print based indoctrinated comforter tells them a misinterpreted translation of "thou shallt not kill your neighbour's donkey".

[Walsingham]

Every time I read a similar thing I loose a bit of tolerance against religion.

 

Me too, but then I remember that there are a whole bunch of stupid people on this planet whose only deterrent against throwing a fit and committing horrible murder over "sonuvabits cut me off on the freeway" is the fact that their print based indoctrinated comforter tells them a misinterpreted translation of "thou shallt not kill your neighbour's donkey".

 

 

LOL .

[Gorgon]

Islam you mean. Who can remember the last Christian lynch mob. That might not sound very diplomatic, but it's surely true.

 

It's got **** all to do with religion. And everything to do with being a ****wit.

 

BTW, _I_ 'remember' Christian lynch mobs:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs

That's what I'm sayin'. 60 odd years ago.

 

The mob came straight from friday prayer. Of course it's got something to do with religion. Some ****wit turning the situation to his own advantage and starting a riot, but isn't that always how it goes. Religion and practice go hand in hand, people want to relate it to their own lives and the situation they are in.

 

Doesn't help that the papers are plastered with pictures of American GIs posing over dead civilian Afghans either.

[Volourn]

Murder over burning books. I wonder if I burn both a koran and a bible, made sure it was publicized which group would attack me first...

[Walsingham]

Islam you mean. Who can remember the last Christian lynch mob. That might not sound very diplomatic, but it's surely true.

 

It's got **** all to do with religion. And everything to do with being a ****wit.

 

BTW, _I_ 'remember' Christian lynch mobs:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs

That's what I'm sayin'. 60 odd years ago.

 

The mob came straight from friday prayer. Of course it's got something to do with religion. Some ****wit turning the situation to his own advantage and starting a riot, but isn't that always how it goes. Religion and practice go hand in hand, people want to relate it to their own lives and the situation they are in.

 

Doesn't help that the papers are plastered with pictures of American GIs posing over dead civilian Afghans either.

 

But it's like blaming football for football hooligans. The two co-occur, and interact, but I strongly object to the notion that strongly held religious beliefe such as those held by our some forum members or my grandparents (for example) turns you into a small minded p***. Small minded p***s simply hide behind religion the way I might hide behind a large fat lady to avoid a particularly loathsome person at a ****tail party.

[213374U]

Religion doesn't turn people into zealots.

But it does. Check your history if you believe otherwise. Religion has been used to great effect to get people up in arms just because the head of some church or another claimed that GOD demanded it.

 

It's a bit more complex than that and it's related to how the ability to reason is diminished in environments where masses are inflamed -be it a religious act, a political rally or a military harangue before combat-, but organized religion *is* essentially a form of mind control. In the West wars were fought to curb its influence and bring it under control of the civil authorities... and with good reason.

 

RE attack: apparently for these people, burning a book is more of an offense than killing a bunch of people with a Hellfire that goes off-course. I find it hard to believe, but if true, it shows to what degree some people are in denial in their belief that "surgical" application of military force can democratise Afghanistan.

[Walsingham]

OK. I don't want to admit that there's some truth in what you're saying. But I have to.

 

Yes organised religion has been used as a control technique. But my questions would be:

 

- How much of it is down to religion and how much down to organisation? Particularly an organisation which methodically ensured its adherents were better trained, educated, fed, and equipped than the people they were trying to mobilise?

- How much disastrous anarchy has been avoided through the political dimension of organised religion? Look at the mess in some countries, and the strength achieved by groups like the Taliban and Islamic Courts through their unifying codes and identity?

- Is there no other way to approach this topic than as a punch up over organised religion? I implore us all to unite in scorning ****holes, whatever creed, denomination, or colour.

[pmp10]

Religion doesn't turn people into zealots.

But it does. Check your history if you believe otherwise. Religion has been used to great effect to get people up in arms just because the head of some church or another claimed that GOD demanded it.

That may be but it's never been more instrumental than economical factors.

Most people are simply all too willing to use religion to justify actions driven by avarice.

 

As for the attack - the only thing to look for is what the local community does now.

I imagine "Islam is peace" will get repeated a lot but no real action will be taken.

Not unlike fighting football hooligans.

[Walsingham]

What makes me genuinely sad is that it can only be a matter of time before every hate-filled racist dingbat from Twickenham to Tallahassee starts burning Korans, and one wonders if that won't spark even more outrage and death.

[Volourn]

If you own the book you have the right to do what you wish with it. The fact thats cumbags use that as ane xcuse to murder innocents is what's really sick. The barbarains (that's people who do this, not all muslims btw) should get into the 21st century and get over themselves.

[Gorgon]

They wouldn't be fundamentalists if they were able to.

[Zoraptor]

Islam you mean. Who can remember the last Christian lynch mob. That might not sound very diplomatic, but it's surely true.

BTW, _I_ 'remember' Christian lynch mobs:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs

That's what I'm sayin'. 60 odd years ago.

Sabra and Chatila?

Kosovo/ Bosnia?

Jos?

Northern Ireland?

 

There've been plenty of times where christianity has been used as an excuse for murder as well.

[Gromnir]

What makes me genuinely sad is that it can only be a matter of time before every hate-filled racist dingbat from Twickenham to Tallahassee starts burning Korans, and one wonders if that won't spark even more outrage and death.

 

if every hate filled dingbat in tallahassee burned every available Koran in the state of florida (5 or 6?) that wouldn't justify violence on behalf of... anyone. if you is in anyway exculpating or excusing the recent afghani violence, then the stoopidity you referenced should encompass one additional englishman. no doubt you will deny having done so, but you has clearly drawn a parallel between the stoopidity o' a "dingbat" in florida engaged in a ridiculous but legal and immediately harmless activity, and the acts committed against UN personnel described in your linked article. even if the UN personages (gurkhas, a swede and a romanian) were members of terry jones' congregation (unlikely), such violence would not have been justified. nevertheless, to speak of jones' stoopidity in the same breath as those who were involved in the recent violence at Mazar-e-Sharif is either disingenuous, or stoopid.

 

btw, am thinking that murder and beheading is justifiably labeled as barbaric, no? terry jones actions on the other hand, were laughable... right up until some folks in Mazar-e-Sharif decided to kill UN personnel.

 

side note: am not blaming the Mazar-e-Sharif violence on Islam.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

Murder over burning books. I wonder if I burn both a koran and a bible, made sure it was publicized which group would attack me first...

Excellent point.

[Walsingham]

if you is in anyway exculpating or excusing the recent afghani violence, then the stoopidity you referenced should encompass one additional englishman. no doubt you will deny having done so, but you has clearly drawn a parallel between the stoopidity o' a "dingbat" in florida engaged in a ridiculous but legal and immediately harmless activity,

 

If I call a man's wife ugly, even if she is, knowing it will make him angry, then there is some blame at my door.

 

Besides, I don't know where you get off, accusing me of excusing the violence. I excuse neither. I accuse both.

[Gromnir]

if you is in anyway exculpating or excusing the recent afghani violence, then the stoopidity you referenced should encompass one additional englishman. no doubt you will deny having done so, but you has clearly drawn a parallel between the stoopidity o' a "dingbat" in florida engaged in a ridiculous but legal and immediately harmless activity,

 

If I call a man's wife ugly, even if she is, knowing it will make him angry, then there is some blame at my door.

 

 

 

if the man with the ugly wife goes on a killing spree after your observation 'bout his mate, and the people he kills have NO relation to you in any way, then no, the blame cannot be reasonably attributed to you. am still not certain if is disingenuous or stoopidity we is facing. when this topic first came to light on these boards last september, we were amazed to see just how little respect many peoples outside o' the US has for the notion o' free speech, so perhaps this is an insurmountable cultural obstacle. even so, if a bunch o' afghanis got angry 'cause a dingbat in gainsville burned their holy book, then we wouldn't have an issue. is understandably human to get angry. burning books is bad. burning holy books is clear meant to be inflammatory. but angry is far different than homicidal even in england.

 

let us reverse the scenario.

 

hypothetical:

 

an islamic cleric holds a trial o' christianity, after which he burns a copy o' the bible (he picked up a Gideon Bible when he stayed at the Holiday Inn in Kabul). a week later a group o' protesters in gainsville, florida responds by hosting a rally outside the Florida Tibetan Buddhist Center. things get out of hand quickly as the protesters begin shouting "Death to the Taliban!" and "Burn the Ayatollah!" 14 people are killed when the rabid protesters whip themselves into a frenzy and attack the "compound." among the dead are the leader o' the Buddhist Center, llama david bole from santa fe, as well as six employees (4 cubans, 1 puerto rican and 1 mongolian).

 

heck, if walsh publicly set copies o' the Declaration of Independence ablaze and some crazed American "patriot" responded with misguided homicides, we would not blame walsh for the resulting deaths. we would blame the "patriot" and no other.

 

...

 

as much as we thinks that the actions o' the pastor o' the 60-member dove world outreach center church were insulting and rude, we will not hold him responsible for what occurred in afghanistan.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edited ps

 

almost as disheartening as the insanely unnecessary deaths o' the victims in afghanistan is the recognition that thanks to the abject stoopidity and irrational violence o' the murderous mob that attacked the UN compound in Mazar-e-Sharif, the dingbat pastor with his congregation o' 60 has been, to some small degree, legitimized. he were nothing... a nobody.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Gromnir

[Oblarg]

The blame for the deaths cannot in any way be placed on the pastor, no matter how stupid his actions were, or even if they were intended to incite. Killing people is not a reasonable response to the burning of a holy book, and if you place the blame on the pastor then you are basically saying we all have an obligation to cater to the whims of unreasonable people (in this case, radical muslims).

 

If I were to tell you that I'd go shoot up a local school if you ate a cheeseburger tomorrow, and you proceeded to eat a cheeseburger and I shot up the school, would that make you in any capacity responsible for the shooting? It's an extreme example, sure, but the concept is identical.

 

Anyway, these scumbags don't do much for the whole "religion of peace" aesthetic that legitimate Muslims seem to be aiming for. A pity Islam has such a disproportionate number of absurd fundamentalists - I can't think of any other religion with followers that would react this way to something as trivial as a bigoted pastor burning their holy book.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Oblarg

[Hurlshort]

Maybe we should start a country where organized religion is not allowed? That has never been done before, right?