Game Shame

[Morgoth]

Games are driven by technology while movies are driven by art.

 

That's why games will always be for nerds with power fantasies.

[Purkake]

What about games that are not driven by technology(Minecraft, Gravity Bone) and movies that are(Avatar, Transformers)?

[Thorton_AP]

When does something become mainstream?

[Morgoth]

Even something like Avatar has more artistic virtue than your Avellone written Obsidian game.

[Purkake]

Even something like Avatar has more artistic virtue than your Avellone written Obsidian game.

So Avatar wasn't driven by technology?

 

When does something become mainstream?

When it's not "hip" or "cool" anymore.

[Tigranes]

What exactly was artistic about Avatar?

[Starwars]

I guess it's more of a personal shame than anything, but parts of how big the industry is getting has me getting rather shameful at being a gamer at times. Like the awards and all that. I just watched a Best Story of the year segment on gametrailers, and I just think it's all so very stupid. No, these scripts aren't good... Heavy Rain isn't a good story, it doesn't feature good writing or believable characters. And what makes it worse is that it's a type of game that many gamers will proudly hold up as an example in the "videogames can be art!" discussion.

While I think there are games that feel more and more mature, there are also equal amounts of games that are just plain crap that are claimed to be mature. And so we have characters like Miranda in ME2 (which is a game I kinda like though) where the camera is constantly shoved up her butt, or characters like Madison in Heavy Rain whose sole purpose in the game is to be victimized. I still seems like such an incredibly immature business. I don't mind this so much in itself (because it *is* a young industry) but when people point to blatant crap and praise it as being "mature storytelling" or whatever, it makes me bury me gamerface in my hands.

[Orogun01]

^Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Hell Kitty]

or characters like Madison in Heavy Rain whose sole purpose in the game is to be victimized.

 

If we ignore all the things she accomplishes, then sure! If anyone has to be labeled a victim it'd be Ethan, what with the fact that he has to go through a series of meaningless trials in an attempt to find his kidnapped son. But then he's a man, and we only see women as victims.

[Gorth]

Hollywood has been around for how long? Not sure I would classify most of the stuff that comes out of there as "mature" these days. I actually think the video gaming industry is doing a frighteningly good imitation of the movie industry, being formulaic, predictable, market analysis driven and often catering to the lowest common denominator in the quest for disposable income.

[Orogun01]

<stuff>

Hollywood has been around for how long? Not sure I would classify most of the stuff that comes out of there as "mature" these days. I actually think the video gaming industry is doing a frighteningly good imitation of the movie industry, being formulaic, predictable, market analysis driven and often catering to the lowest common denominator in the quest for disposable income.

Yeah, the problem is that we are just imitation of the "formulaic, predictable, market analysis driven and catering to the lowest common denominator". The big difference is that for a Duchamp putting a toilet on a pedestal, there is a Michelangelo revealing a David. For every crappy blockbuster and slasher film, there is a Schindler's list. I hate that the most common argument for games as art comes from the mouths of people who wouldn't now art if they were stabbed with it. That games should be art by default because the arts have degenerated to a point where a deuce can be called art. The fact of the matter is that the game developing model isn't designed for artists, the names are for the teams and the teams are faceless entities (like their publishers) with a more familiar "feel" to them. There is little room for a personal vision, teams are often too big to contemplate everyone's input and publisher don't take few risk because every game it's a big risk on it's own.

 

If Spielberg came to the door of any executive with a script called Ballbusters from Planet 8 they wouldn't even read it, they'd just jump right on it. Because it's Spielberg and he has star power, he can get other people behind it's projects that line up just for the chance of working with him. If the movie tanks it's just another chapter on Spielberg filmography, he will go on to make good movies with other companies and other executives. A game director screws up and they just fire him, keep the team, the brand name and the director has no name to fall back on even if he was behind some great games.

It's the brand name(publisher, dev team) that holds the power, not the director or team member(the would be artist).

[Thorton_AP]

Depends.

 

Sid Meier, Shigeru Miayamoto, Hideo Kojima, and so forth have become some pretty recognizable names.

[pmp10]

Depends.

 

Sid Meier, Shigeru Miayamoto, Hideo Kojima, and so forth have become some pretty recognizable names.

No more than Romero, Spector and Avellone were back in the day.

Fame in gaming will never reach movie-celebrity status as it would end up being too detrimental to the publishers.

Unlike dev studios and IPs people cannot be owned, promoting individuals would carry unnecessary risk of losing your investment.

[Thorton_AP]

I'd argue that Miyamoto and Kojima especially far, far, FAR, exceed people like Romero (it was always Carmack as far as I'm concerned anyways. I never even heard of Romero when he called me his bitch), and especially Spector, and especially Avellone (how he even made your list is beyond me.

 

Consider Meier and Miyamoto also predate ALL of the examples you gave further weakens your argument. Even during the heyday of the names you mentioned, Meier and Miyamoto were bigger names.

 

 

Unlike dev studios and IPs people cannot be owned, promoting individuals would carry unnecessary risk of losing your investment.

 

And yet, the three that I mentioned are promoted. Sid Meier's name is attached to the games he makes right on the front cover! Miyamoto owes his legacy to Donkey Kong (and has effectively been knighted in France!), and Kojima's name exploded with the release of one of the most successful cinematic game franchises ever. American McGee's Alice was named so in hopes of the game taking off and McGee getting the same sort of influence. Unfortunately the game wasn't the influential hit they were hoping for and McGee faded away.

 

I love people like Warren Spector, but he's a small fry. You had to be gung ho and hardcore to hear of Carmack, let alone John Romero, and Chris Avellone has a following from such a tiny, niche group of the gaming community I have no idea why you even suggested him. Black Isle Studios was never even a big name, with its biggest exposure coming from a game franchise made by BioWare. Feargus probably has more name recognitio than Chris does. Sorry Chris! "Back in the day" indeed.

 

Here's the thing about Meier, Miyamoto, and Kojima: I only play games made by one of these guys. Yet I certainly know who Miyamoto and Kojima are.

 

 

Will they be as big as movie-celebrities? Unlikely. The complete lack of screen time has a large part to do with it. This only applies to the actors though. I do think that you will start to get game designers that reach the level of influence as directors and so forth. People like Spielberg have been plying their craft for longer than the games industry even existed. It's a bit early to write it off.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Gorth]

The complete lack of screen time has a large part to do with it.

Yup. Want to bet that way more people recognise the name 'Lara Croft' than 'Toby Gard' (who created her)?

[pmp10]

Since today

[Orogun01]

Unlikely. The complete lack of screen time has a large part to do with it. This only applies to the actors though. I do think that you will start to get game designers that reach the level of influence as directors and so forth. People like Spielberg have been plying their craft for longer than the games industry even existed. It's a bit early to write it off.

Whilst you raise some valid points, this one I disagree.

 

I don't know who Luc Benson is, never seen his face and yet I have seen almost all of his films. Same way that I know who Sid Meister is, because both are names advertised by the product itself. Just a short string of letter saying "A John Doe game" eventually there will be that great game that reaches someone and there is a director's name attached to it. I have looked for directors that way and found out about other films that they made that I've enjoyed, now that becomes a name on my watch list.

[Orchomene]

I don't feel shame playing or not playing games. However, it's an entertainment I have difficulties to talk about with collegues since too few of them play video games, so I just keep my enjoyment for myself.

 

About art, difficult subject. Comics in Europe (at least in France) are considered art, the ninth art, they say. But european comics seem to target more to mature audience than US one (for the US one I know). Just have a look at Corto Maltese.

 

For video game, we should consider an interactive art aspect as opposed to a fixed art. We can not really compare experiencing a painting or a book and a video game. So, as an interactive art, we could perhaps have Tetris being an example of art.

[Orogun01]

Just because games incorporate art doesn't make them; as a whole, art. I guess that's one of the reasons why we are going down the same road of comic books and horror films, becoming our own little culture with it's own set of values.

[Malcador]

Just because games incorporate art doesn't make them; as a whole, art. I guess that's one of the reasons why we are going down the same road of comic books and horror films, becoming our own little culture with it's own set of values.

 

I thought we were going down the road of blockbuster movies and pop music.

[Orogun01]

Just because games incorporate art doesn't make them; as a whole, art. I guess that's one of the reasons why we are going down the same road of comic books and horror films, becoming our own little culture with it's own set of values.

 

I thought we were going down the road of blockbuster movies and pop music.

Games as a product are going more in the way of movies and pop music, as a culture we are more like comics. Our own separate expositions, references and values. Movies and music have a celebrity status and it's culture centers around Hollywood, unlike games.

[Thorton_AP]

Since today

[Gorth]

Sid Meier pretty much invented the 4X strategy game and even before Civilization, was also known for other games like Pirates and Railroad Tycoon.

Go back and read your history books

 

4X gamers were old when Civilization was released. Reach for the Stars is at least 7 years older. Sid Meyer was worshipped long before Civilization, not at least as part of Microprose classic 'simulation' games. I think I still have F15 Strike Eagle, Silent Service and Nato Commander lying around somewhere. If anything, Civilization heralded the end of Sid Meyers creativity and the work became sequel after sequel after... etc.

 

A pox upon Civilization

[Malcador]

Good old Bill Stealey. Used to play nothing but F-19 or GS2K when I was a kid.