You're getting Wikileaks for breakfast, lunch, and tea for the next few months, kids

[Walsingham]

Once again, Krez:

 

1. The USA has a democratically mandated and democratically administered process for being held accountable. Wikileaks runs contrary to the laws of that democracy. If the people actually wanted wikileaks they could vote for it. They haven't and they won't.

You keep bringing this up. If there hadn't been whistleblowers, nobody would have heard of My Lai, either. As somebody who has worked enforcing this kind of stuff, I have 0 faith in them working, even in countries and organisations roughly 1 % the size of U.S.

 

1. The My Lai investigation utilised the democratically endorsed systems to hammer the perpetrators.

2. Nothing in these releases is anything like as serious.

3. We already knew a lot of the contents, as set out in this article.

 

This is just an exercise in Yank bashing. Nothing more.

 

Junai, if you want to prove that the USA isn't a democracy, start a thread, and lay out your argument. Until then, quit embarassing yourself. Because you sound like a loon.

[Junai]

Junai, if you want to prove that the USA isn't a democracy, start a thread, and lay out your argument. Until then, quit embarassing yourself. Because you sound like a loon.

Coming from the guy who thinks that leaks containing little of any substance seriously damages America's ability to function as a government.

 

Wonderful.

 

Loon.

 

J.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Junai

[Nepenthe]

1. The My Lai investigation utilised the democratically endorsed systems to hammer the perpetrators.

After the official investigation initially covered it up - a secondary investigation, which lead to actual results, was only started after the whistleblowers approached several representatives later on.

 

I woulnd't say the perpetrators were exactly hammered, either. IIRC, only one person even received a sentence for the massacre, and the part of it he served wasn't even symbolic. But that's not really on topic.

[Moose]

The only thing I've learnt from all this is people generally disfavour whistle blowers unless they've got something genuinely interesting to say.

 

Fascinating to see how governments will handle this.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Moose

[Meshugger]

For democracy to really work, the public needs to make informed decisions when they vote. A vital part of that is that people needs to know what's really going on, not just what the goverment chooses to let them know "for their own good", "for national security" or any of the other usual reasons for witholding information. In that regard, wikileaks is a very important tool for democracy.

 

Bingo!

 

As long as there are govermental agencies, officials and authorities that decide what people should know, there will be a need for something like wikileaks.

[Kaftan Barlast]

The general theory is that; the natural tendency of any goverment is to act in the best interests of the goverment, not the people. And when that happens, it becomes more important to hide the mistakes you make, than to try and refrain from repeating them. And as a result of that, the only reliable source of information are third parties outside of said goverment.

[Walsingham]

Two rejoinders:

 

1. The US govt's ability to function can and is being harmed by these leaks (even though they contain paradoxically mundane data). I already mentioned the damage done by stovepiping in the intelligence community. What is going to happen if diplomats can't say the bleeding obvious in confidential communiques?

 

2. Who says whether wikileaks is behaving in a manner consistent with the public interest? They aren't accountable to anyone.

 

3. I don't see the My Lai incident as off topic! But it was broken by a soldier writing to a Congressman, in a manner that is entirely consistent with democratic principle and practice. It's certainly consistent with what I was taught under training about reporting up the chain of command, ending in the legislature.

 

4. I do not believe it is the real meat of the matter, but claiming that the people need to be informed by external bodies is flawed on two counts:

- They are constantly appraised of failings by their own governments in committee hearings, audits etc. Because democratic governments contain members of opposition. Whose job is is to loyally question, so they can take power.

- Informing means processesing data not just dumping it. Wikileaks mission statement is to embarass governments. Not to make reasoned or responsible judgements, but to sensationalise. In the first place this weakens their ability to inform the reasoned process of democracy and accountability. In the second place it weakens awareness by flooding the public's awareness with trash like this.

[Monte Carlo]

The tin foil hat brigade are already suggesting that Wikileaks is a CIA / Mossad false flag op designed to paint Middle Eastern governments in a bad light.

 

Personally, I think the US State Department internal security people should be given development opportunities digging ditches in Guam or Alaska. If a disgruntled 22-year old private soldier can d/l all those documents onto a pen drive and give them away then it's the OpSy equivalent of leaving a new Rolex watch in an unlocked car in a vehicle crime hot spot. Doh!

[Junai]

1. The US govt's ability to function can and is being harmed by these leaks (even though they contain paradoxically mundane data).

Mundane data are now harmful!

 

2. Who says whether wikileaks is behaving in a manner consistent with the public interest? They aren't accountable to anyone.

Is Eric Prince? Or the recipients of the 700B dollar bailout package which was voted down in congress?

 

4. I do not believe it is the real meat of the matter, but claiming that the people need to be informed by external bodies is flawed on two counts:

External bodies shouldn't scrutinize government business? News-media? FYI, 'free corporate media' doesn't equal 'freedom of press'. Wiki is doing what the big corrupt media-houses should be doing.

 

- Informing means processesing data not just dumping it.

Thank you, I'll take the raw unprocessed data if you don't mind. You can have yours processed by Fox if you want.

 

 

J.

[TheHarlequin]

Once again, Krez:

 

1. The USA has a democratically mandated and democratically administered process for being held accountable. Wikileaks runs contrary to the laws of that democracy. If the people actually wanted wikileaks they could vote for it. They haven't and they won't.

2. Yet again, there is little of any substance in the leaks which is new. In fact nothing new that I've seen.

3. Yet again the leaks damage Americas ability to function as a government by militating against frank and sensible internal discussion.

 

All Wikileaks is is a vehicle for undermining whichever country it points at. WHERE ARE THE CHINESE WIKILEAKS?

 

1. We are not a democracy. We are a representative republic. Quite a significant difference.

2. Then in your view the leaks should be moot

3. You are contradicting your own point #2 as if there is nothing new thus no real news this shouldn't be a issue in the big picture. However I do agree a lot more with this point then your former one. However I think pulling back the carpet and showing whats been going on the past decade or so is ok.. as in a republic you need transparency. Unlike what that anti-american **** cheney believed in.

[Monte Carlo]

**** Cheney is awesome - did you know he once shot someone in the face?

[TheHarlequin]

Thank you, I'll take the raw unprocessed data if you don't mind. You can have yours processed by Fox if you want.

 

J.

 

Exactly and well said!

 

Why do we need our news and info spoon fed to us though some biased filter? Can't one think for themselves? Or have we gotten to become sheep to the point some people want to be told what to think (aka fox news)? Scary thought.

[Gorgon]

That's just the one we know about

[TheHarlequin]

The general theory is that; the natural tendency of any goverment is to act in the best interests of the goverment, not the people. And when that happens, it becomes more important to hide the mistakes you make, than to try and refrain from repeating them. And as a result of that, the only reliable source of information are third parties outside of said goverment.

 

As sad as it is to say, I more or less agree with you.

[Monte Carlo]

Thank you, I'll take the raw unprocessed data if you don't mind. You can have yours processed by Fox if you want.

 

J.

 

Exactly and well said!

 

Why do we need our news and info spoon fed to us though some biased filter? Can't one think for themselves? Or have we gotten to become sheep to the point some people want to be told what to think (aka fox news)? Scary thought.

 

Why is it that it's only folks on the political right-of-centre who are 'told what to think?' Aren't there any knee-jerk liberals too in your world? Because you're doing a pretty good impression of one.

[TheHarlequin]

Thank you, I'll take the raw unprocessed data if you don't mind. You can have yours processed by Fox if you want.

 

J.

 

Exactly and well said!

 

Why do we need our news and info spoon fed to us though some biased filter? Can't one think for themselves? Or have we gotten to become sheep to the point some people want to be told what to think (aka fox news)? Scary thought.

 

Why is it that it's only folks on the political right-of-centre who are 'told what to think?' Aren't there any knee-jerk liberals too in your world? Because you're doing a pretty good impression of one.

 

If you think cheney was CENTER right you are delusional. More like FAR right. And I criticize FAR left folks as well. However even the most far left person still believes in freedom of speech, questioning authority and freedom of thought. Everything the far right, like cheney, is against. So while both far left and right I have issues with the lesser of the two evils IMO is certainly the left folks when it comes to civil liberties and in a fight i'll take their side if forced to choose.

[Fighter]

Considering they describe Russia as a country run by the mafia, and directly implicate Putin and his cronies in this, as well as describing cases of bribery between Berlusconi and Putin... yeah, I'd say it steps on his toes.

 

Those "secrets" are laughable compared to what you can find on Russian news sites. Don't say anything that isn't already common knowledge and give no actual credible evidence. This whole recent wikileaks is a fluke, at least as much as Russian files are concerned.

[Monte Carlo]

However even the most far left person still believes in freedom of speech, questioning authority and freedom of thought.

 

Er, no. North Korea is 'Far Left'. China is 'Far Left.' The USSR was 'Far Left.' Please explain for those of us not gifted with your skills of political divination how these 'Far Left' entities were flag-wavers for civil liberties and free speech?

[TheHarlequin]

However even the most far left person still believes in freedom of speech, questioning authority and freedom of thought.

 

Er, no. North Korea is 'Far Left'. China is 'Far Left.' The USSR was 'Far Left.' Please explain for those of us not gifted with your skills of political divination how these 'Far Left' entities were flag-wavers for civil liberties and free speech?

 

I am talking about a self identified left INDIVIDUAL in the US political spectrum. Other places, and gov'ts, in the world define 'left' differently. So your talking apples to oranges. Come back to talking US politics and reply to my post in the context it clearly was meant for.

[Gorgon]

I'd call those places dictatorships. 'Far left' kinda implies hippies, not Communists.

[Balthamael]

Least surprising fact about these leaks is that Sarah Palin does not know the US government doesn't have jurisdiction outside the US borders. Good for her that she found a spot to advertise her book, though.

 

[Gorgon]

I like the one about 'our allies North Korea' better.

 

North Korea, East Germany etc. Maybe it's a bit much to expect her to remember all that.

[Tale]

Laugh all you want. But when she's president, the humor will be replaced by terror.

[Walsingham]

Stratfor.com helpfully have furnished me with a great example of how something we already know came out in the leaks to the detriment of what I laughingly refer to as the good guys*:

Concerning the leaks of diplomatic cables regarding Iran.

 

What we can glean from these insights is that Arab apprehension over Iranian expansion is really nothing new but they really are telling of Arab support for a potential military strike against Iran. With these diplomatic cables it can be that much more difficult for the Arab states to convince their own populations that they wouldn

Edited November 29, 2010 by Walsingham

[Meshugger]

Stratfor.com helpfully have furnished me with a great example of how something we already know came out in the leaks to the detriment of what I laughingly refer to as the good guys*:

Concerning the leaks of diplomatic cables regarding Iran.

 

What we can glean from these insights is that Arab apprehension over Iranian expansion is really nothing new but they really are telling of Arab support for a potential military strike against Iran. With these diplomatic cables it can be that much more difficult for the Arab states to convince their own populations that they wouldn