Piracy

[Monte Carlo]

Or if someone copied a book I wrote.

by "copied" you mean didn't buy it? because as far as writers go (the real ones), they don't care, the more people read it the better, right? or am I alone in this?

 

You're wrong. Professional writers rely on sales like any other working creative. The internet and advent of Kindles and other digital media devices is seeing the dead tree publishing business hit in the same ways as games, music and movies. Every time somebody steals the IP by downloading it (news to all the self-appointed legal eagles here = it's illegal, copyright theft is still an offence in most jurisdictions) then the writer loses their cut of the royalties from that book.

 

Most professional writers are on modest incomes, writing isn't a financial win button for many. So they are as affected by this issue as games developers or the music industry.

 

Obviously, I'm not speaking about the hippy-in-a-garret poet style writers or up-their-own-arses literary novelists who've already made a million and can afford not to care anymore.

[Gromnir]

1) there is no moral high-ground for pirates.

 

bunch o' clowns. trying to rationalize your actions is ridiculous to watch... without it being funny in the least. not nearly as humorous as a dozen o' you spilling out of a car or shooting each other in the face with seltzer. go back to your traditional exploits as you is clearly getting tripped up by your big shoes. nevertheless, we does see some cultural loci for piracy advocates, so perhaps you were perverted by a twisted upbringing. it seems that the closer you gets to se asia (and russia) the more likely one is to see piracy being defended. for those o' you raised improperly, we may feel some sympathy for you and your bankrupt morality.

 

2) the only reason information piracy & copyright infringement is not equivalent to theft is 'cause o' the traditional common law definition o' thefts

 

no carrying away o' an object with the intent to permanently deprive... so no, theft is not accurate. nevertheless, the reason for criminalizing piracy and common law thefts is the same: you is taking, without permission, something that don't belong to you.... and any o' you whack jobs who argue the semantics o' piracy now gets the Big Hypocrite label if you ever complain o' what you see as Gromnir-acting-likes-a-lawyer.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Humanoid]

Going off on a tangent a bit, I'm curious about the relationship between piracy and second hand sales. Now I'm not very familiar with the console scene (hence this post) but reading and listening to people it seems there's a huge second-hand market with some going to maximum lengths to game the system. If this is untrue then obviously the rest of the post is moot, but anyway -

 

I assume the developers/publishers get zero cash from both piracy and second-hand sales. Now, take a pre-owned game for say, 3/4 the price of a new one. Given the buyer was obviously willing to pay that much for a smallish saving, the probability that they would have bought new for full price if that was the only available avenue is very close to 100%. I imagine the probability of a pirate paying no money for a game buying said game if piracy was not an option to be much, much lower. I'm not sure what I'm missing but it seems if each incident of piracy/second-hand sale is expressed as fractions of a lost sale then the latter is surely a much larger hit for the game companies?

 

Example with arbitrary numbers:

 

Second-hand buyer who is 90% likely to buy same game if it was only available new: 0.9 units of lost sales

Pirate 20% likely to buy same game if it was not piratable: 0.2 units of a lost sale

 

Using a calculation like that (I think I'm highballing the pirate's buy chance if developing/3rd world countries sales are included), one could say a developer is losing 4.5 times as much money when a game is traded second-hand as compared to when a game is pirated.

 

 

I guess the final question is whether the gulf between incidences of piracy and incidences of buying pre-owned is so great that the overall estimated lost sales due to each factor overwhelmingly leans towards the former - thus justifying the shunning of the PC as the preferred platform for development?

Edited November 26, 2010 by Humanoid

[Hurlshort]

Hurlshot I just want to pick up on your point about vidgames being a luxury and if you can't afford it you shouldn't play it, at all. I know it's a fairly common sentiment and one you hold quite strongly. It's correct, but I'd argue you can't slap it on indiscriminately on issues like these and call it a day.

 

Firstly a better analogy might be - if ice cream was $30 a pop would you say there was no grounds for complaint, resistance, and/or people finding less than legal ways towards its procurement? Luxury items are not all the same - with something like skydiving it already occupies, globally, a position where it is understood as a high-cost activity. At the other end of the spectrum you could argue that there's no problem if some people are priced out of soft drinks or movie rentals, but that's neither likely to persuade anybody disgruntled by $30 Coke or be considered a realistic and productive appraisal of the situation.

 

It's a little different I feel from the idea of entitlement, which we always seem to fall back to in piracy discussions - of course at the end of the day nobody's entitled to play video games, but I find we're being too black and white about this and saying "hey you don't need this to sustain your life in a biological sense, stop whining". I think it's very valid to say, or to recognise, that in countries where prices are completely out of whack with the rest of the world, there's a problem that needs to be addressed at that level, not at the level of prosecution (only).

 

None of this denies that piracy is illegal, hurts the industry, is often a coward's excuse for many people, etc. But I feel it's more constructive to look the situation in terms of, how can we balance the technological apparatuses out there (ease of / availability of pirated goods, making legit goods more appealing) as well as the market balances (prices) and the moral side (discourse).

 

I might have come across as too severe with the whole 'can't afford, don't play' argument. What I really should be saying is 'can't afford brand new games, find another alternative for games'. That's the thing, there are a ton of alternatives out there for people on a budget. There is oodles of shareware and freeware on the internet, and most games hit the bargain bin after awhile.

 

So to stick with my analogy, instead of going skydiving, you go to one of those simulated wind tunnel places. Or you just jump off a tall building

 

To go with your ice cream analogy, I never buy Ben and Jerry's ice cream at the store unless it is on sale. It is too expensive for me to buy at full price all the time. If I was really budget conscious about ice cream, I'd buy the cheap kind on those plastic tubs.

[Gromnir]

"Firstly a better analogy might be - if ice cream was $30 a pop would you say there was no grounds for complaint, resistance, and/or people finding less than legal ways towards its procurement?"

 

what?

 

is there no grounds for theft o' ice cream simply 'cause it is overpriced? YES. %&$# YES.

 

if little bobby hanson is some kinda mutant who cannot eat any food save for ice cream, THEN maybe you got the start o' an argument... for bobby. but we is talking 'bout ice cream. if is priced too high, then find an alternative for your sweet-tooth fix... or go without.

 

*srtches noggin*

 

complain all you want 'bout the pricing... is ok to complain. but to find some nefarious alternative simply 'cause Ice Cream is too expensive...

 

what a bizarre question.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 26, 2010 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

and you don't want the input and perspective from game developers on the subject because?...

 

Most of it seemed unrelated to piracy - such as their testing problems, or him getting disheartened alot. I'd be glad if someone said they thought my game was crap but played 30 hours of it, at least they've seen everything it had to offer at that playtime and can form their opinion on it. That way it's useful as feedback.

 

I'm curious as to how these groups break the copy protection from a technical view, heard rumours but as you can imagine, can't go ask how they do it, hehe.

[cronicler]

Monte Carlo:

I would suggest checking Baen, especially their Webscription and Free Library

sections for a very different view of publishing.

 

ARCs (Advanced reader copies, the ones that are available months before paper releases) usually cost $10 to $15 and the E-books cost $6. (Monthly packages also cost $15 for 5 or 6 books, a mix of new and old titles) And despite these prices, they (Both the publisher and the writers) don't seem to be suffering the usual internet stole my profits problems.

 

 

Internet has already completely changed the play field, The old ways are doomed to fail if publishers (Literature, Music, Movie or Game. Doesn't matter) still insist on using them.

 

 

Granted, I am not in the business but from outside, as a semi-close follower of the medium, The industry seems to have bloated. I'm not talking about the actual people that "make" the games but the other departments. It seems most of the games get designed by committee, the pr costs as much as the game does, a lot of "executives" meddle in the production and to top it all, the total costs have gone sky high. (And the chosen method to cut costs? cut the testing and release beta...)

 

 

$60+ for a 4 hour game? no thank you, I would rather go and read mil-sf.

Edited November 26, 2010 by cronicler

[Hassat Hunter]

alanschu the BioWarian should be happy with me.

 

Yeah, I pirated Dragon Age because I didn't feel convident of the qualities. And because there is no demo obviously. Yes, I completed the entire game.

 

And yes, tonight I will be buying the Ultimate Collector's Edition (have to ship it from the UK though since they don't sell it here).

 

So, not always necessarily a bad thing, without trying I would have never purchased DA outside of the budget bin...

[alanschu]

and you don't want the input and perspective from game developers on the subject because?...

 

Most of it seemed unrelated to piracy - such as their testing problems, or him getting disheartened alot. I'd be glad if someone said they thought my game was crap but played 30 hours of it, at least they've seen everything it had to offer at that playtime and can form their opinion on it. That way it's useful as feedback.

 

My post was directly motivated by piracy.

 

I will happily and emphatically help someone with issues in the game, and accept criticism from them, if they bought the game. When I learn that I just spent the past day helping someone that was having severe issues with the game didn't actually buy the game, I get frustrated because I would have rather helped someone that was financially invested in the game.

 

The piracy is what disheartens me. If someone buys the game, plays 30 hours of it, and tells me it sucks, I pay attention and accept it as useful feedback. If someone pirates the game, plays 30 hours of it, and tells me it sucks, I'm disinclined to bother with his feedback because he's demonstrated he is not one of my customers.

 

The other aspect of my post was financial, which is affected by piracy as well. No one here feels that one pirated copy of the game = one lost sale (even though a lot of people seem to think that's what the industry feels), but I think it's naive to believe that a lot of pirates (especially in the West) pirate simply because they aren't interested at all in buying the game. I do think that if by some magic all piracy were to suddenly become impossible, sales would increase, especially for the PC game industry. In other words, I consider piracy to be a net negative for the health of the industry. I am a PC gamer and while I don't think PC gaming is dying, I do think it's compromised by piracy. I'm not at all surprised that the industry has really moved towards the consoles, which is unfortunate for myself as a PC gamer.

 

 

As for whether or not you'd be glad, I thought I was pretty explicit when I mentioned that the circumstances involved somebody that pirated the game. I am skeptical that you'd be glad if someone took services you rendered, failed to remunerate you for them, and then decided to tell you that you did a crap job and should work at improving their experience.

 

 

I'm curious as to how these groups break the copy protection from a technical view, heard rumours but as you can imagine, can't go ask how they do it, hehe.

 

In simple lay terms the executable is modified to not be dependent on the various copy protection hooks that would otherwise fail to properly execute if not passed.

[Orogun01]

Wouldn't be easier to stereotype your target demographic and work from that frame?

[Volourn]

Piracy is stealing. That's a fact.

 

Theftb is taking something without permission that you don't have the right to. That's what piracy is.

 

It's immoral, and people using the excuse of being is poor are pieces of crap. This isn't survival ala the fabled 'man steals food for starving family'. Games are not needed. If you can't afford them to buy them and don't play them.

 

I don't care if you think they're too expesnive. there are plenty of things I want but can't get because they are out of my price range. Guess what? I don't get them.

 

Stop making excuses for scummery.

[Malcador]

In simple lay terms the executable is modified to not be dependent on the various copy protection hooks that would otherwise fail to properly execute if not passed.

 

 

Well..yes, I know that (woo my B.ASc isn't useless after all ). What I meant was specifically how it's done.

 

If people pirate the application I work on, I doubt I'd care much either way, like Initech we ship more zip benefit to me other than the already ongoing dice roll of whether I keep my job, hehe. Whether or not they funded the company, they've provided feedback on a product I've worked on and that's what's useful to improve. You're telling me that if a pirate supplies a well evidenced review showing why he thinks the game is bad totally or in some aspects, you'll just ignore it ? What if he praised it ?

[Humodour]

If a company like CD Projekt talks about piracy, I will listen. I might even disagree (the Slashdot comments elaborate as to why), but I certainly respect their right to protect their interests given how honest and decent they are to their customers.

 

If a company like Ubisoft talks about piracy, I will laugh my ****ing **** off at their poor performance as a company as well as their willingness to try and criminalise their customers and blame their inefficient management on piracy.

[Humodour]

Anyway, the moral ambiguity involved with illegal downloading is lessening (i.e. less worthwhile and justifiable), as the greedy publishers **** pointless middle men are being cut out in the digital age. That means lower prices for consumers and higher margins for artists (writers, singers, developers, producers).

 

It may take another 10 years or so but once the bigger developers start doing things like signing their own deals directly with Steam and such as the indie devs do things will really getting exciting.

[Pidesco]

I think game publishers should use a picture of Bobby Kotick staring obssessively at, and appealing personally to the pirates in order to get all their lost sales.

[Humodour]

Why can't I say ****? It's a Latin word which has zero vulgar meaning when not used by idiots. Even when it is used by idiots they can just write 'come' instead. I can't, because come does not equal ****.

 

Stupidly thought-out filter.

 

"Used in indicating a thing with two roles, functions, or natures, or a thing that has changed from one to another.

He built a bus-****-greenhouse (= he converted a bus to a greenhouse) that made a bold statement, but the plants in it didn't live very long."

 

**** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ****

Edited November 26, 2010 by Krezack

[Orogun01]

Why can't I say ****? It's a Latin word which has zero vulgar meaning when not used by idiots. Even when it is used by idiots they can just write 'come' instead. I can't, because come does not equal ****.

 

Stupidly thought-out filter.

 

"Used in indicating a thing with two roles, functions, or natures, or a thing that has changed from one to another.

He built a bus-****-greenhouse (= he converted a bus to a greenhouse) that made a bold statement, but the plants in it didn't live very long."

 

**** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ****

Wow, that's a lot of orgasms.

[Gorgon]

**** ?

[Gorgon]

Why are there four stars when it's a three letter word, that just seems so lazy.

[Thorton_AP]

It makes for a more effective filter then because it's harder to interpret what is being said.

[Humodour]

My rule of thumb is to always pronounce 4 stars **** in my mind as "feck" with a 'u'. This produces varying results.

 

"Today I went to **** Smith Electronics to buy an iPhone 4."

 

"She is an activist-****-politician."

 

"He totally ****-blocked me at the party and that's why I'm urinating on his daffodils."

 

"Good evening, San Diego. I'm Veronica Corningstone. **** McGee is on vacation."

Edited November 27, 2010 by Krezack

[Orogun01]

Should we filter Colonel Angus too?

[Gorgon]

Uranus is the seventh planet from the sun.

[Gorgon]

**** Cheney

[Gorgon]

****roach