FO: NV (General Discussion)

[RPGmasterBoo]

2 comments:

 

1. On the Pop/Gromnir dispute over area design. I'm not familiar with either US city, so from a bystanders perspective I can only say F3's DC was an oppresive, dull, maze. FNV was interesting for me because of the way the city is designed in rings Strip>Freeside>Ruins>Farms. It has a kind of logic I find pleasing.

 

2. On the topic of combat. Fallout 1 and 2 combat sucked. Whatever anyone says, there were no tactics there and there was a very limited selection of options to choose from, that boiled down to move, shoot or move and shoot. About halfway through the game, in both cases, combat became a pushover.

FOT had true tactical combat, but nothing else.

FNV has an okay combat system, but the viable combat options are also quite modest. Snipe, shoot, grenade, melee + VATS. Like any other shooter. Only less responsive and twitch based.

 

It may be my Infinity engine bias, but its hard to argue that the Fallout series have ever had a great combat system, or indeed anything beyond passable.

[Cantousent]

In Fallout 1 and 2, you could still get knocked out from a lucky shot. That's the thing about Fallouts. Critical hits could be game enders no matter where you were. That's the other thing. You're fighting some epic battle and a called shot crit to the eyes would essentially end it all for either side.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Okay, but that's the point when you hit the reload button, and proceed to kill the guy who got lucky. Its amusing, but not a truly important gameplay element.

 

The combat text, called shots and death animations were what kept the combat from becoming a chore. But they're really just spice on top of a dead simple mechanic.

!!! (and neither game solved the issue with turned based guns, that JA2 has as well - the point where hi powered long range weapons come into play and make everything else obsolete)

 

Of course, playing with a team in FOT was an another story entirely. Then it became obvious how sweet SPECIAL could be.

[LadyCrimson]

In Fallout 1 and 2, you could still get knocked out from a lucky shot. That's the thing about Fallouts. Critical hits could be game enders no matter where you were. That's the other thing. You're fighting some epic battle and a called shot crit to the eyes would essentially end it all for either side.

That's one of the things I kinda liked in NV....if someone shoots you in the head, you should be dead. Gunfights should be fairly quick and it shouldn't take 50 direct headshots to kill something. I'm so tired of games where everyone is magically bulletpoof or whatever. It's like in the movies where no one can seem to hit anything with their 500 guns unless required by the plot.

 

But I do get the point that such instant-kills seem to come too easily in NV (can't speak for the other FO's). In games it's hard to balance even a modicum of pretend "reality" without making things feel too easy. (edit:or too hard) Really tough, actually.

Edited November 13, 2010 by LadyCrimson

[Gizmo]

It may be my Infinity engine bias, but its hard to argue that the Fallout series have ever had a great combat system, or indeed anything beyond passable.

I liked the combat in FO1, 2, and Tactics ~tactics built onto FO2.

 

In FO2 you could use APs for more than attacking, and you could even choose not to use AP's and would gain an armorclass bonus for every AP you did not expend; (x2 with the right perk and conditions).

 

FO played fair, and the NPC's could run out of ammo, or jam their gun, drop their melee weapon, or even twist their ankle or something and pass out ~same as the PC.

They also played by the same [simple] rules, and I can recall knocking out opponents, unloading their gun, and stealing their ammo ~then moving off to attack someone else. When they awoke they hopped up and tried to shoot my PC, and then could not reload, and had to expend AP's to close into melee range. In FO2 you can move behind a corner, and drop dynamite as you go, and them sometime follow you around the corner and end their turn on the bomb. You can end your own turn behind someone else and a shooter has a decent chance of hitting them instead ~do this on purpose, and you might draw angered "allies" into the fight. FOT had better combat, but FO2 combat was great IMO.

 

That's one of the things I kinda liked in NV....if someone shoots you in the head, you should be dead.

In a skill based RPG, if someone shoots you in the head, it might just nick your ear or scratch the bone... No guarantee that it punched a hole in your skull ~and provided its not a .22, its not impossible to survive if it did ('cuz people have). Edited November 13, 2010 by Gizmo

[RPGmasterBoo]

What you're describing is the sort of amusement one gets out of a system he/she has already played to the death and mastered to the point that you can do crazy things and still win.

 

Its also quite unrealistic (not that realism is something to be implemented at the expense of fun).

 

To be honest, JA2, as complex as it is, has issues. A lot of them. AI and long range weapons at the very least. Trying to break down something as quick and deadly as gun combat into turns is a hell of a job.

On the other hand, FOT's real time mode was practically unmanageable...

Edited November 13, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Gizmo]

What you're describing is the sort of amusement one gets out of a system he/she has already played to the death and mastered to the point that you can do crazy things and still win.

 

Its also quite unrealistic (not that realism is something to be implemented at any cost).

Absolutely! (and yet I did this even in the first weeks) ~but Fallout supports it.

(and dropping a bomb is do different than dropping a mine in FO3 ~I've done it to see if it still worked)

 

Its a fact that FO3 cheats where FO1 did not... In combat the inventory requires APs to enter, but the pipboy requires nothing, and AP's regenerate for free (and reloading is free).

*Sure there are exploits in both games, but IMO FO3's are equal or more onerous.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Gizmo

[RPGmasterBoo]

Like I said, stat based gunplay has never been done well. Turn based make it exploitable, reflex based makes it irritating (to a shooter player). As there is no easy way (or at least no plausible one) to fix injuries or resurrect in a modern themed RPG the player is practically forced to exploit, reload or die.

Edited November 13, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Gizmo]

Like I said, stat based gunplay has never been done well. Turn based make it exploitable, reflex based makes it irritating (to a shooter player).

No argument there. AP's equate directly to time, and in theory the faster PC moves first, and its all supposed to be considered simultaneous action, but the limits of TB do cause unrealistic sideffects in the linear action of the events, but in this case you really can say, "its just a game".

 

There is a neat mod for Myth that sets it in the old west, with six shooters and cannon. Fun game, with RT strategy and while they don't fall over in pain from one shot... its still pretty brutal and they don't live long while getting shot at. Pity the guy with the knife.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Gizmo

[RPGmasterBoo]

There is a neat mod for Myth that sets it in the old west, with six shooters and cannon. Fun game, with RT strategy and while they don't fall over in pain from one shot... its still pretty brutal and they don't live long while getting shot at. Pity the guy with the knife.

 

You have to be kidding me, I've never heard of this. And I love Myth!

[Gromnir]

You keep talking about landmarks in FO3, and NV has just as many landmarks. If interest in a setting comes from the fidelity with which the appearance of said landmarks are recreated in-game, then there's no reason why you would favor one over the other. The lottery aspect of Nipton (as in, the lottery aspect of the game comes from the fact that no one ever visited Nipton IRL except to play the lottery) is more clever than any location design in FO3. The only conclusion to come to is that your preference for FO3's setting is arbitrary. You speak of NV as though it lacks things it does not lack. I don't know if it's because you're a lawyer or what, but you should know that in normal everyday conversations, people infer things that are not explicitly stated. I don't know why you go about things as though what you say has no meaning.

 

still not listening. is not simply a comparison o' landmarks... and surely not fidelity o' landmarks. am not caring if landmarks is replicated exact, particularly if the reality o' a rl landmark is boring. new vegas replicates caves? ssssoooo? the developers job is to Make the locales interesting. why on earth would Gromnir be impressed with a mine, quarry or cave simply 'cause it exist in rl? if developer rl knowledge can make more interesting, then so much the better (as were done with fo3) but the vegas wasteland maybe manages to be accurate, w/o being unique or compelling. fo:nv is a generic wasteland, which should be unforgivable.

 

and as for nipton being more clever than any portion o' fo3, we hope you jest. there genuine ain't much to do in nipton considering that it is a critical path town. a powderganger with broken legs and a kinda silly villain delivering his message o' DOOM? 1007 some buildings and move on to some place more interesting... heck, the rows o' crucified powder gangers didn't even inspire a moment o' emotion from Gromnir... were all just kinda background noise. poorly crafted. and the aside about the lottery does not resurrect from a banal little burg into some kinda example o' obsidian development cleverness. the transit system o' fo3's dc were far more clever and offered more gameplay than nipton.

 

arbitrary preference? not by a long shot. what does surprises us is how devoted some fo fans is to new vegas considering how little it actually improves 'pon the previous game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gizmo]

There is a neat mod for Myth that sets it in the old west, with six shooters and cannon. Fun game, with RT strategy and while they don't fall over in pain from one shot... its still pretty brutal and they don't live long while getting shot at. Pity the guy with the knife.

 

You have to be kidding me, I've never heard of this. And I love Myth!

I don't have that one any more... There is also an urban warfare mod that is similar.

 

Here is a Civil War conversion though (I've not played it, but found it just now while searching for the other one)

http://projectmagma.net/downloads/BlueAndGrey/

 

Here is another...

http://projectmagma.net/downloads/CarnageIslands/

Edited November 13, 2010 by Gizmo

[RPGmasterBoo]

There is a neat mod for Myth that sets it in the old west, with six shooters and cannon. Fun game, with RT strategy and while they don't fall over in pain from one shot... its still pretty brutal and they don't live long while getting shot at. Pity the guy with the knife.

 

You have to be kidding me, I've never heard of this. And I love Myth!

I don't have that one any more... There is also an urban warfare mod that is similar.

 

Here is a Civil War conversion though (I've not played it, but found it just now while searching for the other one)

http://projectmagma.net/downloads/BlueAndGrey/

 

Here is another...

http://projectmagma.net/downloads/CarnageIslands/

 

Sweet, thanks. Now there is a series that needs a sequel.

[Cantousent]

what does surprises us is how devoted some fo fans is to new vegas considering how little it actually improves 'pon the previous game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Not to intrude on what seems to be a private conversation, but I'll probably respond to this affirmation where I see it. New Vegas takes something I enjoyed (Fallout 3) and increases that enjoyment. You have given no compelling reason to prefer the DC wasteland other than your personal tastes. I don't know if that's arbitrary or not. Frankly, most things in life are arbitrary. Regardless, no matter how often you affirm it, there is no objective reason to prefer the DC wasteland. I respect that you prefer it. I just don't accept that it's because of some golden standard. The best you could affirm is that the majority of players agree with your assertion, which is probably hard to prove. You enjoy the DC wasteland. Fine. But your tastes are not inherently better in any quantifiable way. That's why I don't argue that the New Vegas wasteland is better. I argue that I like it more.

[Gizmo]

You enjoy the DC wasteland. Fine. But your tastes are not inherently better in any quantifiable way. That's why I don't argue that the New Vegas wasteland is better. I argue that I like it more.

Butting in... I would agree. Saying that one or the other is just better is an inherently personal statement, but a person can say something is better if they mean that it is more suitable ~or appropriate. I would argue that NV's wasteland (what I've seen of it) is a more suitable return to the series proper. I really liked (and still like) FO3's landscaping and art design, but I found that I liked it best when away from the towns (or any sentient NPC except wandering scavengers). FO:NV's Wasteland is better [to me] because it better resembles a series game in both pacing and attitude, and plausibility within the setting (a setting that includes supermutants, talking animals and psychic cyborgs )

 

The problem I had with FO3 and not FO1, 2, or NV (so far), is that I could never take any NPC seriously... None of them commanded attention like Marcus, Set, or the Lieutenant (or even Butch, Killian and Cabbot for that matter). Talking to some in Greenspring and the first NCR guys at the outpost seemed believable to me, and the wastelands surrounding them seemed appropriate. ~More appropriate than the lands surrounding Megaton, or the folks inside.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Gizmo

[Hurlshort]

Boo, you shut your mouth about JA2. It is perfect in every way!

 

Seriously though, JA2 makes fallout's tb combat look like a three legged horse in the kentucky derby

[Slowtrain]

Seriously though, JA2 makes fallout's tb combat look like a three legged horse in the kentucky derby

 

Really, you can't compare the combat directly. Fallout is a rpg with a TB combat system. Jag 2 is a TB combat game with some rpg mechanics.

 

Both games did a great job on what the chose to focus on.

[sorophx]

oh come on. you're comparing two completely different beasts.

 

JA2 is all about combat. squad-based combat. and FO is about running errands for NPCs, explore the world. the combat is there just for the sake of having it, because every RPG should have it. FO was ahead of it's time, it never should've been an isometric turn-based game in the first place.

[Gizmo]

..... it never should've been an isometric turn-based game in the first place.

Oh I disagree. FO could have been like Stonekeep (which I liked), could have been like 'Die By The Sword' (which I also liked), but they designed it the way they wanted, to suit their goals... and they even designed Arcanum that way years later; *Edit:for clarity* the upcoming Diablo3 has the same art director as Fallout (though its not technically ISO ~and of course not TB).

(We're lucky it wasn't like the last link in my SIG. )

 

They actually stripped Fallout down a bit after the loss of the GURPS license... FO used to have 14 targets on the aimed shot.

 

The chief aspect was the combat system, everything else followed.

 

I would love a 3d/'rotatable' FO3 or 4 (perspective like the Witcher or DoW), that was TB during combat and otherwise basically FO:NV.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Gizmo

[sorophx]

it may have been the original design, but in my eyes it's far from how the game actually turned out

 

EDIT: wait, Arcanum had turn-based combat? I don't remember that. I guess my memory is really bad...

Edited November 14, 2010 by sorophx

[Gizmo]

it may have been the original design, but in my eyes it's far from how the game actually turned out

 

EDIT: wait, Arcanum had turn-based combat? I don't remember that. I guess my memory is really bad...

Not only Arcanum, but this would have [likely] had it too

 

And

has the best D&D based TB combat to date (that I have seen). Edited November 14, 2010 by Gizmo

[Hurlshort]

You know, old school Fallout fans really don't have anything left to complain about it. Sure, the IP got kicked around a bit, made into some lame console games, and basically sat with a bankrupt company for awhile. But then it got picked up by one of the few successful RPG publisher/developers in the business, became hugely popular, and then they even went out and hired another developer to make the next game that was filled with people from the original two. Then they turn around and make the best game in a long while, and it seems to have found both critical and financial success.

 

Jagged Alliance 2 is where the real grumpy old school gamers are at. We've got a bankrupt company and over ten years of promises of JA3 that have all ended in misery. Our IP keeps getting picked up by Eastern European companies that have never released a triple A title and probably never will. Our horizon is truly bleak.

 

[Gizmo]

You know, old school Fallout fans really don't have anything left to complain about it. .......

Touch

[WDeranged]

On a random note, has anyone else wondered how those pre war planes in McCarran could have taken off without a runway?

[TheHarlequin]

Harle, there are quite a few joinable NPCs. If you fulfil the preconditions to have them join, then the option will become available in chat. Probably the most obvious one is in Novac. Do you want spoilers for joinable NPCs?

 

I poked around Novac a bit but didn't bump into him. I however not far away met up with Victoria and that opened up the BoS quests when we came upon her bunker. I love Vic and her attitude.. goes well with my merc for the best offer PC I am RPing. So I got her and ED-E and were all doing quite well together. Not sure what the point of ED-E is.. no dialog and seems just some random voice recordings from time to time. It can't take much a beating but it good at ranged support as Vic and I lead the attacks.

 

My next play im going total out for myself to quire power and wealth. Survival of the fittest kind of mentality. So 'evil' if you will. In that case raiding the BoS bunker seems like a sweet option. As there's a ton of cool equipment there and making it my home base.

 

Either case I still need to find a way to wear power armor. Vic is sporting a suit but I can't currently as I need training...

Edited November 14, 2010 by TheHarlequin