The Iraq war was a disgrace, but sometimes we forget just how much

[Namutree]

To the original poster-

 

Iraq is no joke. It was a poorly made strategic decision by an out-of-control government that has betrayed it's founding ideals in favor of foreign entanglements. Things like this happen when the US doesn't just mind it's own business.

[Volourn]

Things like that happen even when the US does.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Things like that happen even when the US does.

But isn't the US responsible for all bad in the world?

[Walsingham]

 

Things like that happen even when the US does.

But isn't the US responsible for all bad in the world?

 

 

According to the majority of my exes, it's the USA and me.

[Gromnir]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/18/world/meast/iraq-mosul-dam/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

 

if true, is incredibly good news.  am amazed at just how little press the mosul dam(n) situation has received given that we are talking o' potential biblical scope harm resulting from simple negligence in maintaining the facility, much less intentional destruction. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Namutree]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/18/world/meast/iraq-mosul-dam/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

 

if true, is incredibly good news.  am amazed at just how little press the mosul dam(n) situation has received given that we are talking o' potential biblical scope harm resulting from simple negligence in maintaining the facility, much less intentional destruction. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

it's not surprising really. ISIS was doomed from it's inception. The only question for me is how long until they go into hiding like the powerless vermin they are.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Namutree

[Rostere]

Finally under Obama America has gone back to being heroes, well, it was long overdue. 50 or 60 years of mostly idiotic interventions had to lead to somewhere. I guess they felt the need to spend that WW2 karma capital somewhere.

 

In order to keep things that way: Stick to drones and airstrikes and military advisers. Don't ever target populated areas. Keep it that way and I'm sure you can ride this wave of popularity to the end.

[Agiel]

Finally under Obama America has gone back to being heroes, well, it was long overdue. 50 or 60 years of mostly idiotic interventions had to lead to somewhere. I guess they felt the need to spend that WW2 karma capital somewhere.

 

In order to keep things that way: Stick to drones and airstrikes and military advisers. Don't ever target populated areas. Keep it that way and I'm sure you can ride this wave of popularity to the end.

 

Winston Churchill had at one point said:

 

 

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

 

I am however kind of concerned that IS will wind up chaining women and children to artillery pieces in an effort to put a stop to the "death from above."

Edited August 19, 2014 by Agiel

[BruceVC]

Finally under Obama America has gone back to being heroes, well, it was long overdue. 50 or 60 years of mostly idiotic interventions had to lead to somewhere. I guess they felt the need to spend that WW2 karma capital somewhere.

 

In order to keep things that way: Stick to drones and airstrikes and military advisers. Don't ever target populated areas. Keep it that way and I'm sure you can ride this wave of popularity to the end.

 

I've also maintained this sentiment, the West can be the "heroes " in various conflicts if it avoids boots on the ground ( in other words get the opposing rebel force to do the ground fighting ), tries to minimize civilian casualties ( sometimes this can't be avoided ) and mustn't been seen as an occupying force once the conflict is over. This is the best way to implement regime change or when the West feels the need to intervene in a particular crisis

[Namutree]

Finally under Obama America has gone back to being heroes, well, it was long overdue. 50 or 60 years of mostly idiotic interventions had to lead to somewhere. I guess they felt the need to spend that WW2 karma capital somewhere.

 

In order to keep things that way: Stick to drones and airstrikes and military advisers. Don't ever target populated areas. Keep it that way and I'm sure you can ride this wave of popularity to the end.

Your impression that we are heroes now is merely an illusion. Obama's foreign policy isn't very different from any of the previous administrations. There have been tactical shifts, but the overall objectives are the same as ever.

[Namutree]

 

I am however kind of concerned that IS will wind up chaining women and children to artillery pieces in an effort to put a stop to the "death from above."

 

They won't do that. Sunni radicals tend to be pretty bold on a battlefield. They'll hold their ground for a short while, and once beaten they'll try to withdraw.

[Namutree]

ISIS does represent something very important for the Middle East. Once ISIS is defeated (Which will be soon) it will be a symbol for the futility of attempting to restore the Islamic caliphate. Thankfully for the world; ISIS managed to get a lot of naive Islamist to come out of hiding and show themselves. It will make their defeat quicker, easier, and more definitive.

[Rostere]

I am however kind of concerned that IS will wind up chaining women and children to artillery pieces in an effort to put a stop to the "death from above."

 

I hope they are not reading these forums then, let's not give them any ideas!

 

Your impression that we are heroes now is merely an illusion. Obama's foreign policy isn't very different from any of the previous administrations. There have been tactical shifts, but the overall objectives are the same as ever.

Still, it's actions that matters, not "real objectives". I'm sure there are powerful lobby groups sitting in DC, gnawing their fingernails in frustration that the public won't support their latest inane plot to squander public funds for their gain. Let's just keep this current political climate up, and let's not forget how awful things can be. Of course Obama is not a genius or a saint, but he is a lot better on foreign politics than many alternatives.

[HoonDing]

Only good thing about ISIS: they're draining the West off some extremist sleeper scum.

Edited August 19, 2014 by HoonDing

[BruceVC]

 

Finally under Obama America has gone back to being heroes, well, it was long overdue. 50 or 60 years of mostly idiotic interventions had to lead to somewhere. I guess they felt the need to spend that WW2 karma capital somewhere.

 

In order to keep things that way: Stick to drones and airstrikes and military advisers. Don't ever target populated areas. Keep it that way and I'm sure you can ride this wave of popularity to the end.

Your impression that we are heroes now is merely an illusion. Obama's foreign policy isn't very different from any of the previous administrations. There have been tactical shifts, but the overall objectives are the same as ever.

 

 

 

Finally under Obama America has gone back to being heroes, well, it was long overdue. 50 or 60 years of mostly idiotic interventions had to lead to somewhere. I guess they felt the need to spend that WW2 karma capital somewhere.

 

In order to keep things that way: Stick to drones and airstrikes and military advisers. Don't ever target populated areas. Keep it that way and I'm sure you can ride this wave of popularity to the end.

Your impression that we are heroes now is merely an illusion. Obama's foreign policy isn't very different from any of the previous administrations. There have been tactical shifts, but the overall objectives are the same as ever.

 

 

It amazes me that people think that the Obama foreign policy has been the same as his predecessors, especially around military intervention. Obama despite the accusations is not a warmonger, in fact he has been very diligent in ensuring that the USA does not get involved in complicated and protracted wars. A couple of points to support this

 

• He got USA troops out if Iraq and has set deadline for Afghanistan
• He avoided bombing or going to war with Iran despite internal pressure from within the congress and Israel
• He avoided having to attack Syria despite the fact Assad "crossed the line by using chemical weapons"
• He has used drones in regions like Pakistan and Yemen where certain punitive military steps had to be taken but he didn't send special forces in
• He has adhered to the votes by the UN security council around vetoes, his predecessor ignored the vetoes by the UN security council and acted militarily
• He has sent numerous groups of military advisors to various countries that requested USA military intervention. This is not the same as sending in ground troops, examples of this include Nigeria and current situation in Iraq

 

Obama has taken a far less belligerent approach  for  the USA  and its previous view of " if you aren't with us you are against us"

 

He should get some credit and recognition for this

[Namutree]

 

 

 

• He got USA troops out if Iraq and has set deadline for Afghanistan

 

The date in which the troops in Iraq left was a date negotiated by the Bush administration. Not that leaving Iraq at that point meant much as most of our troops had already left. As for Afghanistan; Obama escalated the war there. Also, setting a timeline for leaving isn't truly meaningful. 

 

 

 

• He avoided bombing or going to war with Iran despite internal pressure from within the congress and Israel

There was no united effort from congress pushing for war with Iran. Considering all previous administrations have managed to not go to war with Iran makes Obama exactly the same as his predecessors in this regard. If it's any consolation; Obama did levy sanctions against Iran which is an act of war.

 

I could go on and counter each point, but it would be too much effort. Suffice to say that in truth; the biggest difference between Obama and Bush is presentation.

[Guard Dog]

Finally under Obama America has gone back to being heroes, well, it was long overdue. 50 or 60 years of mostly idiotic interventions had to lead to somewhere. I guess they felt the need to spend that WW2 karma capital somewhere.

 

In order to keep things that way: Stick to drones and airstrikes and military advisers. Don't ever target populated areas. Keep it that way and I'm sure you can ride this wave of popularity to the end.

You think the US is popular in the world now? You must be watching different news sources than I am. I'm getting the distinct impression most other nations think us weak and indecisive. So we went from being overbearing and a bully to weak and indecisive. The former is really bad and the latter is not an improvement.

 

Personally I think North and South America should draw a line down the Atlantic east of Brazil and west of Guam and tell the rest of the world this is our side, that is yours. But since I'm not in charge of anything I'd settle to a Pre-WW2 stance of non-interventionism. 

[Namutree]

 

Personally I think North and South America should draw a line down the Atlantic east of Brazil and west of Guam and tell the rest of the world this is our side, that is yours. But since I'm not in charge of anything I'd settle to a Pre-WW2 stance of non-interventionism. 

 

It is kind of interesting how our policy in WW1/WW2 worked super well for us, and then we never did it again. Oh well.

[HoonDing]

Personally I think North and South America should draw a line down the Atlantic east of Brazil and west of Guam and tell the rest of the world this is our side, that is yours. But since I'm not in charge of anything I'd settle to a Pre-WW2 stance of non-interventionism. 

No, just keep bombing, guys. So we don't have to.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

Personally I think North and South America should draw a line down the Atlantic east of Brazil and west of Guam and tell the rest of the world this is our side, that is yours. But since I'm not in charge of anything I'd settle to a Pre-WW2 stance of non-interventionism. 

 

It is kind of interesting how our policy in WW1/WW2 worked super well for us, and then we never did it again. Oh well.

 

That has more to do with the shift in philosophy brought on by FDR than any change in attitude in the US. The moment the US government became a partner in businesses is the moment it had a stake in the future success of a business. With a few exceptions all of our post WW2 foreign entanglements have been more about money than the stated goals.  

[Rostere]

You think the US is popular in the world now? You must be watching different news sources than I am. I'm getting the distinct impression most other nations think us weak and indecisive. So we went from being overbearing and a bully to weak and indecisive. The former is really bad and the latter is not an improvement.

 

It's because those are American news sources, and likely conservative ones as well. Of course they are saying that America is "weak and indecisive". Of course they give air time whenever they can find a foreigner who thinks that. You know, I know for sure I've been hearing that all the time from Americans themselves, and never from anybody else. In reality, you have gone from overbearing to pretty much ideally concerned, considering the circumstances. But people never say anything when all is good. People are only interested in complaining when things are bad.

 

 

Personally I think North and South America should draw a line down the Atlantic east of Brazil and west of Guam and tell the rest of the world this is our side, that is yours. But since I'm not in charge of anything I'd settle to a Pre-WW2 stance of non-interventionism.

 

The entire world is interconnected, you know. For good or bad. If the US had not entered or taken a stance in WW2 they would likely have been left in a situation where Nazi Germany had nukes, but not the US, an entire Europe occupied by Nazism and Fascism, Russia a puppet state or a no-man's land, and a similar mess in Asia. This would not mean a bright future for a liberal US, I can tell you that. It's better to amputate before you get gangrene, better to put the fire out when it's small.

 

It's all about finding the right balance. Balance in all things, like they say. It's not about being a "isolationist" or an "interventionist", it's about finding the right balance between the two, considering the current circumstances.

[Namutree]

 If the US had not entered or taken a stance in WW2 they would likely have been left in a situation where Nazi Germany had nukes, but not the US, an entire Europe occupied by Nazism and Fascism, Russia a puppet state or a no-man's land, and a similar mess in Asia. This would not mean a bright future for a liberal US, I can tell you that. It's better to amputate before you get gangrene, better to put the fire out when it's small.

 

It's all about finding the right balance. Balance in all things, like they say. It's not about being a "isolationist" or an "interventionist", it's about finding the right balance between the two, considering the current circumstances.

 

We could debate that, but we'd need a new thread.

[Agiel]

It's all about finding the right balance. Balance in all things, like they say. It's not about being a "isolationist" or an "interventionist", it's about finding the right balance between the two, considering the current circumstances.

 

 

The US would also most certainly feel it if Iran decided to close the Strait of Hormuz and if pirates and rogue state navies ran rampant, causing insurance rates on merchant shipping to skyrocket and drive up the costs of goods, to name just two good examples of how the US suddenly seceding from the rest of the world would be counter-productive to American interests.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Agiel

[Namutree]

 

It's all about finding the right balance. Balance in all things, like they say. It's not about being a "isolationist" or an "interventionist", it's about finding the right balance between the two, considering the current circumstances.

 

 

The US would also most certainly feel it if Iran decided to close the Strait of Hormuz and if pirates and rogue state navies ran rampant, causing insurance rates on merchant shipping to skyrocket and drive up the costs of goods, to name just two good examples of how the US suddenly seceding from the rest of the world would be counter-productive to American interests.

 

I'm not advocating a "See ya later losers!" without a moments notice. If we were to just leave the world stage on a whim it would cause more than a little chaos. I'd rather we simply not make any future commitment while still honoring the commitments we've made. Let the world get acclimated to our declining presence.

 

While it is true that our interventionist policy has some perks; it comes with many severe costs that outweigh them.

[BruceVC]

 

Finally under Obama America has gone back to being heroes, well, it was long overdue. 50 or 60 years of mostly idiotic interventions had to lead to somewhere. I guess they felt the need to spend that WW2 karma capital somewhere.

 

In order to keep things that way: Stick to drones and airstrikes and military advisers. Don't ever target populated areas. Keep it that way and I'm sure you can ride this wave of popularity to the end.

You think the US is popular in the world now? You must be watching different news sources than I am. I'm getting the distinct impression most other nations think us weak and indecisive. So we went from being overbearing and a bully to weak and indecisive. The former is really bad and the latter is not an improvement.

 

Personally I think North and South America should draw a line down the Atlantic east of Brazil and west of Guam and tell the rest of the world this is our side, that is yours. But since I'm not in charge of anything I'd settle to a Pre-WW2 stance of non-interventionism. 

 

 

You see this is where I think there is a misperception  from people who live in America and how the world sees the USA now under Obama and how they viewed the USA under Bush, there is a vast and more positive difference

 

Firstly there will always USA haters, no matter what the USA does this perception won't change. I am not talking about them. But you can ask any member on these forums about what most of the world thought about the USA and its foreign policy decisions during the Bush era, it was generally bad. Some of this criticism was justified and some wasn't but for the majority of people outside the USA they considered the USA a country that just wanted to bomb and invade any country that it had any disagreement with. Plus there was the  whole Iraq invasion and the false reasons we were given to justify that invasion

 

I will maintain that Obama has done loads to improve the perception around the world for the USA  and the role that the USA can play in military intervention. Has he been perfect? Of course not but what president is