Afghanistan,

[Orogun01]

I visit family regularly in Mexico. There are some very rough parts, but there are also some rough parts in every major city in the US. Once you get away from the cities, it is a very beautiful country.

Most of the problems is located along the border in rural areas, because of the drug trade and the fact that most druglords have the government in their pocket plus military training.

[Calax]

Honestly, looking at that article he posted it's no real new information. I mean most people know that there are drug cartels/wars going on along the US/Mexico border, they don't quite know how vicious it is, but they know it's there. I get the feeling, after reading it, that the only reason the guy brings it up is to bash the current administration, saying that they're tacitly allowing these wars to occur, and even prevent state governments from stopping them (using his evidence of the lawsuit against the AZ bill).

 

All in all, I'm guessing that that entire site is just a heavily bias editorial news outlet that turns news into a slinky compared to fox to show party support.

[Wrath of Dagon]

So an American is murdered while jet skiing in a lake that straddles US-Mexico border, and then the Mexican police commander investigating the murder is beheaded by former Mexican special forces turned drug smugglers, and it's no news to you? Good thing your main source of info is the Jon Stewart show.

[Calax]

So an American is murdered while jet skiing in a lake that straddles US-Mexico border, and then the Mexican police commander investigating the murder is beheaded by former Mexican special forces turned drug smugglers, and it's no news to you? Good thing your main source of info is the Jon Stewart show.

*shrugs* It's in the same vein as the constant kidnappings in Mexico City, or the massive gunfight that erupted between gangs in Arizona along I-10 (or 19, don't remember off the top of my head) coming up from the border. Hell, even the history channel has had a few specials on the drug wars going on across the border in the south.

[Oblarg]

I'd say the comments are more scary than the news article itself, but that's usually true for any news outlet regardless of bias.

[Orogun01]

So an American is murdered while jet skiing in a lake that straddles US-Mexico border, and then the Mexican police commander investigating the murder is beheaded by former Mexican special forces turned drug smugglers, and it's no news to you? Good thing your main source of info is the Jon Stewart show.

*shrugs* It's in the same vein as the constant kidnappings in Mexico City, or the massive gunfight that erupted between gangs in Arizona along I-10 (or 19, don't remember off the top of my head) coming up from the border. Hell, even the history channel has had a few specials on the drug wars going on across the border in the south.

Yeah I saw those too, they were on "GangLand". I think that they are the Zetas, IIRC.

The ones with military training of course.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Orogun01

[Nepenthe]

There is one difference that makes Afghanistan worse and is that everyone can pull an RPG out their pocket. Seriously.

Wow, in that case, my local FLGS must be the most dangerous place on earth!

 

/poor attempt at levity

[Walsingham]

Actually, Cal I'd have to back WoD on this one. Even in my circle there's not much awareness about Mexico, although Stratfor.com has been banging on about it for a couple of years. At least prior to the most recent events.

 

In many ways I'd say that Mexico is much like Afghan. But before anyone chews me out I mean that the violence is inseparable from the War on Drugs. You simply can't expect a country with Mexico's GDP to tackle an 'insurgency ' that is so well funded and motivated.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Columbia seems to have done OK.

[Calax]

Actually, Cal I'd have to back WoD on this one. Even in my circle there's not much awareness about Mexico, although Stratfor.com has been banging on about it for a couple of years. At least prior to the most recent events.

 

In many ways I'd say that Mexico is much like Afghan. But before anyone chews me out I mean that the violence is inseparable from the War on Drugs. You simply can't expect a country with Mexico's GDP to tackle an 'insurgency ' that is so well funded and motivated.

You're in britan no? I'd consider that to be a mitigating factor in what you would have knowledge of. Like I said earlier, there have been a couple of tv shows on the subject, and I lived in the west with family near Nogales so it wasn't exactly at the back of my mind.

 

The reason most people don't know is that, quite frankly, they don't care. Right now when they hear "Mexico" it's basically "Oh, you mean where all dems 'illegals the liberals been lettin in the country come from?" And what exactly could we do? The article that WoD linked sounds like it wants us to start a THIRD war and invade Mexico to bring "order" to them (to be fair, we did kinda turn them into goo last time we fought em).

 

Ok, so this one investigation where an american was killed had the head of the cop be popped off... meanwhile on the US highways there are close to 300 unsolved murders of people who just stop off to take a break, who's heads got removed from their shoulders. Which one should be more important?

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/20...249382330_x.htm

Edited October 14, 2010 by Calax

[Orogun01]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/20...249382330_x.htm

Dexter. . . sic them.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Orogun01

[Hurlshort]

Mexico isn't anywhere near Afghanistan, geographically, politically, or stability wise. It is a laughable comparison, I figured WoD was just being colorful with his comment.

 

Mexico has problems, it is still what can be considered a developing country. My own family will tell you that the government is filled with crooks and corruption. Of course we get those same complaints in the US as well.

 

The current drug war going on is a big problem, but it is not indicative of the entire country and plenty of the problems are on the US side. My guess is it will get worse before it gets better as law enforcement from both countries work to bring down these cartels, but eventually they will succeed, as the law always does.

 

You guys know that all this violence is in response to the government putting more pressure on shutting these cartels down, right? They are backed into a corner and lashing out, but eventually the leadership will be taken out and this will end.

[Walsingham]

With genuine respect, Hurlshot just because you've been on a couple of holiday trips doesn't make the comparison laughable. People joke about South Africa not being violent but the murder rate s in both countries are far from humourous.

 

Seeing this as a serious issue isn't just some fantasy of mine. If you watch this link you'll see how seriously Strafor take the situation. They have an entire feed dedicated to the problems in Mexico, just like they do for Afghan. What we are talking about is the Mexican government being denied access to whole regions in any official capacity. Police, army, and even navy are attacked routinely ever since Calderon declared there would be no accomodation with the cartels. Thousands of homicides and kidnappings have accompanied them. And if you think you won't see RPGs whistling around you'd be wrong.

 

I'm not suggesting for a moment that the cartels intend a revolutionary takeover. Their endgame is a return to business without interference. Just like a number of drug dealing clans and syndicates in the frontier of afghan/pak. But in its way that IS a de facto revolution. A state within a state.

 

My perception of Colombia is that it got ****ed royally during the decades of narco terror, and still has a narco fuelled 'marxist' insurgency in the form of FARC. An impression I've received from a number of sources, foremost 'Killing Pablo' by Mark Bowden. This isn't to say they wouldn't be ****ed anyway, but it doesn't help.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I meant Columbia seems to have been able to deal with the situation in the last few years.

[Gfted1]

You know, I just dont understand the Mexican government. Seriously, why dont they round up a couple of divisions and systematically level these cartels to the ground? Yes, the bad guys have some power but surely they cant stand up to the forces of a trained military.

[Hurlshort]

First off, I'm not quite sure what you mean by taking a holiday. I wasn't going to resorts, I was spending time with family that lives in Mexico. My point is I have travelled the country fairly extensively and have never taken bodyguards. There are places I would obviously not be safe going. But there are places in the US I am not safe going, as opposed to Afghanistan being almost an entire country of unsafiness.

 

As I've said, it is a developing country with plenty of problems, but Afghanistan is a country at war. There is a huge difference.

[Hurlshort]

You know, I just dont understand the Mexican government. Seriously, why dont they round up a couple of divisions and systematically level these cartels to the ground? Yes, the bad guys have some power but surely they cant stand up to the forces of a trained military.

 

For the same reason the US military would have trouble rolling through rural areas taking out meth factories. Lots of ground to cover, resistant local population, and way too many hiding places.

[Orogun01]

You know, I just dont understand the Mexican government. Seriously, why dont they round up a couple of divisions and systematically level these cartels to the ground? Yes, the bad guys have some power but surely they cant stand up to the forces of a trained military.

The Mexican cartels have military training and probably better funding than the Mexican government. In the effort to eradicate cartels they are winning an Pyrrhic victory, that is if they win. Part of the problem is also on our side since there is also a strong gang presence on zones close to the Mexican border.

 

The situation does has some similitudes to Afghanistan, maybe not at the same degree of aggravation. Both are bound in the drug trade and the government can't do nothing to stop them.

[Violetta]

That's sick.

[Walsingham]

First off, I'm not quite sure what you mean by taking a holiday. I wasn't going to resorts, I was spending time with family that lives in Mexico. My point is I have travelled the country fairly extensively and have never taken bodyguards. There are places I would obviously not be safe going. But there are places in the US I am not safe going, as opposed to Afghanistan being almost an entire country of unsafiness.

 

As I've said, it is a developing country with plenty of problems, but Afghanistan is a country at war. There is a huge difference.

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you over this, Hurlshot. I didn't make myself clear, in that I see surface dissimilarities, but IMO the architecture of the problem is the same. Like the difference between a horse and a pony.

 

Gfted1. Your answer is in my point that this is like an insurgency. Division sweeps don't work if the enemy hide among the innocent. The best you can hope for is to attrit some of them if tey are stupid enough to try and potshot you as you go through.

[The Illuminator]

I have no knowledge of the reality of this, but if this is real, this is a big pity for Afghanistan and the Afghans who claim to be Muslims.Such an action is strictly forbidden in Islam and the practitioners of such actions are threatened to be tormented in hell like the citizens of sodom and gomorrah. I don't know if this news is real, but unfortunately, there were and are lots of sects in Muslim countries claiming to be ways or tariqats on Islamic ways, but in real, they are sects having no relationships with Islamic rules. Like pedophilia, homosexuality is also strictly forbidden in Islam, an Kur'an clearly tells the story of Prophet Lut in different verses, who was sent to the people living in sodom and gomorrah. I advice you not to believe people performing such actinons and still claiming to be a true believers of Islam religion.

 

There are also people claiming that Prophet Muhammed(S.A.V.) had a wife or wives being in the age 9 and trying to legalize pedophilia with such fairytales. They are nothing but a bunch of people trying to distort the image of Islam or legalize their nastiness with tales having no root to Islam religion. Prophet Muhammed has never married Hz.Aisha at that age and she was having menstrual cycle when she married Him, this proves that she was at a mature age.

 

Throughout history, such sects have occured and the governors of their ages acted immidately against them. Fatimis during mid ages can be a good example. For instance today in Turkey a sect is there called 'Alevis', again claiming to be a road of Islam, but they are not practicing namaz pray or other basics which Allah(C.C.) orders in Kur'an. They play musical instruments while praying via dancing, some of them take Hz.Ali as the prophet of Islam, and yet they still claim to be an Islamic sect. None of their actions are Islamic and so they are anti Islamic. In one of His speeches Prophet Muhammed(S.A.V.) said 1400 years ago that, when it is close to doomsday, Islam shall be divided into 72 sects, and only one of them shall be the true path, which is the path of the people applying the sunnah of Prophet Muhammed(S.A.V.) and the first believers around him. Such sects are those having the path to hell with practices against Islamic rules or including new praying inventions which have never been practiced during Hz.Muhammed(S.A.V.)'s time. Such praying inventions are called Bid'at and their practicers shall go to hell as Hz.Muhammed(S.A.V.) said so when He was living was being directed by Allah(C.C.).

[The Illuminator]

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2010 by The Illuminator

[The Illuminator]

I think a problem occured in my internet connection and that's the reason of my multiposting. I made 3 clicks as I've thought the post hasn't gone. If there is a mod around, s/he can delete my remaining posts apart from the one about the topic.

 

I've tried to delete, but edit option doesn't provide deleting option, only allows to empty the post.

Edited October 18, 2010 by The Illuminator

[Monte Carlo]

Seriously, Mexico is on course for failed narco-state status within twenty years. With all due respect to Hurlie, I'm sure there is normality in plenty of places. Then again, borders built to Berlin circa 1981 standards to keep out migrants are not indicative of a successful country. Corruption, especially when directed by organised crime, stunts the development of any sort of civic, economic or political progress. Mexico badly needs all three.

 

Southern Italy almost ended up here in the 1970's, it took a serious concerted and ruthless anti organised crime effort (and lots of very brave, very dead anti-corruption magistrates) to sort it out.

 

There is probably an entire cadre of politicians in Mexico who have been tainted by corruption for generations and are too far in to get out. Until the political will exists to root these people out the downward spiral will continue. And that will needs to be based on weakening the cartels... which is Catch 22.

 

the US is too scared of upsetting the Latin American countries, and too scarred by their covert involvement there in the 70's and 80's. They need to get involved again.

[Walsingham]

@Illuminator

 

It's clear you are concerned about these actions being taken as the actions of Islam. But I don't think we were saying that. I certainly wasn't thinking it. Hope that allays your fears.